Kincaid microfiction "Goodbye"

[morriswalters]

I ask what specifically could Harry have done differently that would have changed things for the better and what would likely happen if he didn't act at all? In the examples Harry provides, it's usually not much and something worse.

That isn't the point.  In the real world you might never know since you can't rerun events.  But if he never involves himself with Kim, this may have been the lesser evil. It's a variable he can control.  What she may lose by Harry not helping her at all, may be less than what she lost with the help Harry gave her.

[Bad Alias]

But if he didn't involve himself with the various people he coached through getting their powers, some of them could have ended up like the Korean kid resulting in way more suffering than would have been avoided.

[morriswalters]

Who would that be.  Kim and Molly? And who else?

[didymos]

Who would that be.  Kim and Molly? And who else?

They aren't named:

Kim was one of several people I had coached through the difficult period surrounding the discovery of their innate magical talents.

Butcher, Jim. Fool Moon (The Dresden Files, Book 2) (p. 9). Penguin Publishing Group. Kindle Edition.

[Bad Alias]

Yep. Also that kid from Zoo Day.

[morriswalters]

The one book I don't have in text form. But I listened to it.  I stand by my point.

[Mira]

But if he didn't involve himself with the various people he coached through getting their powers, some of them could have ended up like the Korean kid resulting in way more suffering than would have been avoided.

   Isn't that the point of the Merlin's lecture to Harry as to why it is best to give all would be young warlocks the chop and ask questions later?  Especially since the war with the Reds there are not
enough wizards willing to coach or take on young apprentices to prevent their talents from taking a bad turn.  Even fewer wizards willing to face the hazard to try and rehab one, once they start down the road and the cost of failure it too high for the wizard and everyone else.

[morriswalters]

But if he didn't involve himself with the various people he coached through getting their powers, some of them could have ended up like the Korean kid resulting in way more suffering than would have been avoided.

Exactly how would you know that?  Harry can't see the future, and no one can know the results of our interactions.  Anymore than I can Know that Kim would have survived had Harry not explained that drawing.  But she did die.

[Mira]

Exactly how would you know that?  Harry can't see the future, and no one can know the results of our interactions.  Anymore than I can Know that Kim would have survived had Harry not explained that drawing.  But she did die.

You can look at the odds...  Kim was doomed because she was a zealot for the cause,  that affected her thought process that led to her secrecy about MacFinn, her lying about why she wanted the very restricted information, thus her doom..   In her case the mentoring didn't matter one way or the other.

The White Council has instituted almost a "zero tolerance" as far as kids with talent that go astray goes.   Why?  Because there are too many of them, too few wardens to monitor and channel them to wizards who can mentor them..  Without mentoring and teaching about the dangers and pitfalls of playing with awaking talent, kids experiment.  Small things at first, but it affects their minds, their egos, all power corrupts to a certain degree.  Hubris, they think if they can pull off little things, maybe as in the case of Molly, if she just adjusted a few things in the minds of her friends, they'd quit using drugs..  We don't know how the Korean kid got started, but I bet pretty much the same way.  So yeah, all these kids when their talent awakens, have no understanding of it, experiment with it which usually leads down a very bad path, unless there is intervention.   No intervention, warlocks are usually the outcome, that is bad for everyone..  Thus the White Council doesn't even bother with a trial any longer save a pro-functionary soul gaze, then it is off with your head... 

[morriswalters]

There is no data to derive any odds.  And I suppose that you could call Kim a zealot.  But given that Jim just sketches her it's really hard to say.  She strikes me as someone who is committed and who wears her heart on her sleeve.  How we color that sketch may say more about us then the sketch.

[Mira]

There is no data to derive any odds.  And I suppose that you could call Kim a zealot.  But given that Jim just sketches her it's really hard to say.  She strikes me as someone who is committed and who wears her heart on her sleeve.  How we color that sketch may say more about us then the sketch.

  Here is why I believe she was..

  1]  How many do you think with in that environmental group had any clue about what
MacFinn was?
   2] If you had a clue as to what kind of damage it could do to the organization, if word got out publicity wise.  If the press found out about MacFinn, then what?  Just another thought to think about.  Did Kim know what Harry's girl friend did for a living?  Further did she know what paper Susan worked for?  If she did, there is your motive for withholding vital information from Harry and outright lying to him..
   3]  In the face of all the warnings, not getting all the information to build the circle, still keeping his secret and attempting something she knew she couldn't handle at the cost of your own life.. Yeah, I'd call her a zealot...

[Bad Alias]

The one book I don't have in text form. But I listened to it.  I stand by my point.

Which point? It's not like you just have one.

Exactly how would you know that?  Harry can't see the future, and no one can know the results of our interactions.  Anymore than I can Know that Kim would have survived had Harry not explained that drawing.  But she did die.

I know that it could happen based on what Harry tells us in Proven Guilty about all the warlocks sprouting up.

I suppose that you could call Kim a zealot.

The risk isn't that Kim would be a warlock. The risk is that one, or more, of the people he's coached would go warlock but for his coaching.

I'm saying that not knowing the future means that every action/inaction choice has unknowable consequences. One must balance foreseeable risks.

[morriswalters]

I have no idea at this point. 

Dresden is one among about seven billion people on the planet.  If warlocks are cropping up like mushrooms, then any choice Dresden makes in that regard will be buried in the statistical noise.  Even in Chicago. 

Say Dresden has helped ten and lost one of those, Kim.  That means his success rate is 90 percent.  Having said that, since you don't know what happens after Dresden interacted with them, it's possible that some number of the ones he helped fell out anyway.  You don't know what you don't know.

We do however know what happened in Kim's case.  She died. If his point was to help Kim, the by any standard you might want to use, the outcome was less than optimal.  It doesn't matter if Kim was an effing shit show. If the point was to help her with her magic, then it was a fail. She wasn't helped.

Does this make Harry responsible?  It depends on the help.  In Proven Guilty when Molly asks for help Harry is pretty straightforward about the price.  And when it turns out that he has to go to Arctis Tor to get her, then he does it, even though he thinks he can't succeed.

[Mira]

Dresden is one among about seven billion people on the planet.  If warlocks are cropping up like mushrooms, then any choice Dresden makes in that regard will be buried in the statistical noise.  Even in Chicago.

As they say, you do what you can..  If Harry can keep one or two kids from the chop, that is one or two lives saved, that is a big deal whether you bury it in statistical noise or not..

Say Dresden has helped ten and lost one of those, Kim.  That means his success rate is 90 percent.  Having said that, since you don't know what happens after Dresden interacted with them, it's possible that some number of the ones he helped fell out anyway.  You don't know what you don't know.

But at least he tries and he cares,  if he chooses to do nothing, then all those kids are headed for the chop or worse, a life of evil... Not everyone can be like Charity and have a Knight of the Cross save her from a dragon and change her life.

We do however know what happened in Kim's case.  She died. If his point was to help Kim, the by any standard you might want to use, the outcome was less than optimal.  It doesn't matter if Kim was an effing shit show. If the point was to help her with her magic, then it was a fail. She wasn't helped.

Kim was an outlier though,  her zealotry for her cause over rode all her common sense and everything she had learned.  There was only so much Harry can teach, he cannot get into her head and make her choices for her.

[g33k]

  1]  How many do you think with in that environmental group had any clue about what MacFinn was? ...

I doubt it was many more than Kim, unless she worked with a coven/etc and told them; maybe an "eco-coven" or something?      But that's entirely unattested in the novels (or WoJ) that I know of.

I suspect she -- as a magician of SOME sort -- had an inside track of figuring out that MacFinn dwelt on the spooky side of the fence himself, and SHE approached HIM (or did some scrying / etc to figure it out).

  2] If you had a clue as to what kind of damage it could do to the organization, if word got out publicity wise.  If the press found out about MacFinn, then what?  Just another thought to think about.  Did Kim know what Harry's girl friend did for a living?  Further did she know what paper Susan worked for?  If she did, there is your motive for withholding vital information from Harry and outright lying to him ...

Or just the "Supernatural SOP:"  maintain the masquerade.  It's not zealotry if it's what everyone (who's a spooky-sider) is doing!

Not to mention that, as a supernatural herself, she could expect to be harassed or even attacked by "suffer not a witch to live" fundamentalists; that puts her on MacFinn's side, no zealotry needed!

I don't doubt her sympathies were invoked:  poor MacFinn, victim of this awful curse on his ancestor, etc etc etc.  He had managed to work out a way not to kill people, he was just trying to help the world and not harm anyone, won't you help me please?

On the flipside (the "stick" if you consider the points above "carrots") Kim could reasonably expect to be locked up as insane, or sued into poverty, if she turned on him & tried to unmask MacFinn -- noted socialite / financier / whatever (where DID his wealth come from?) and philathropist; general Good Guy of no small repute -- as a freaking werewolf  Gimme a break, lady!

Not seeing zealotry.  Seeing an attempt to keep a status quo (the Masquerade), to help a respected elder & asset, some personal sympathies, and a backstop of "more likely to get in trouble than to fix anything, if I try to turn informant."

   3]  In the face of all the warnings, not getting all the information to build the circle, still keeping his secret and attempting something she knew she couldn't handle at the cost of your own life ...

Or simple overconfidence.

Seriously -- the "zealot" attempting something they know is going to fail??

Maybe the jihadist "dying in the right cause guarantees heaven" mindset will intentionally "die trying" (with no expectation of success).

I don't think we have ANY evidence that Kim was in that sort of mindset.

Instead, I think she seriously hoped she COULD do it.  She knew the consequences of failure -- not just that she might die, personally; but that her beloved cause would be WORSE OFF.  Consequently, she would have been expecting to succeed... or at least, seeing this course as the best odds of success.