Kincaid microfiction "Goodbye"

[Arjan]

@Avernite
The point about the Korean kid was a distraction and I shouldn't have used it.  My apologies.  Kim is responsible for her death.  Harry's responsibility falls around not recognizing that his knowledge is much more dangerous than Calculus.  Either commit fully when you choose to train someone, or stay in your tower.

Too late for that when they had dinner. At that moment after the first wrong choices it was either fully commit or let her die.

[Mira]

@Avernite
The point about the Korean kid was a distraction and I shouldn't have used it.  My apologies.  Kim is responsible for her death.  Harry's responsibility falls around not recognizing that his knowledge is much more dangerous than Calculus.  Either commit fully when you choose to train someone, or stay in your tower.

  I think he does know that his knowledge is much more dangerous than calculus.  That is why he  he stopped giving her information once he realized she was going to use it.   The thing is we know nothing about the relationship Harry and Kim had before this.  She was a friend, but there are the people you know, and the people you are very close with.  He gave her pointers from time to
time, he called her his sometime apprentice, but it is doubtful their relationship was that close.  The
evidence for that, is her lies, if she was close to Harry at all, whether just as a friend or as a sometime student, she would have known he would have busted a gut to try and help her, even back then.

Agreed, Harry could have handled it better, but would it have changed the outcome? The person responsible is Kim because she lied.    Or take it back further, the real ones responsible were the ones who sabotaged MacFinn's circle in the first place.   She was in the movement that MacFinn was the champion/benefactor of, now how did he know about her talent?  And how did she know what he was?  That has never been made clear.   Did she over sell her talent to him?  Did she tell him that she knew a guy who could help, but MacFinn didn't want anyone else brought in?  Either way, this whole thing reeks of pre-planning.   Again the one responsible for her own demise, is Kim, she may have lied to MacFinn about what her capabilities were, she lied to herself about her capabilities, and she lied to Harry from beginning to end.  Her choices.

  Don't dismiss the fact that Harry was hungry, he said he didn't have much work, he might not have eaten for a day or two.  Not a huge excuse, but it makes him vulnerable, one doesn't think clearly when one is hungry.   When Kim is lying though her teeth she avoids his eyes... Okay, Harry isn't disturbed by that, wizards and people with talent don't like slip into soul gazes..  However at the same time, if Kim was hiding something, which she was, the last thing she wanted was a soul gaze.

Harry is being condemned because he withheld vital information... That would be bad, except he was up front about it, when he realized it wasn't an academic exercise, he refused to tell her more and warned her strongly against it.  She then had the option of coming clean and telling him why she needed it.  That gave him the option on whether or not to tell her everything, or insist on going with her.  It is all about choices.

His fourth possible approach was lure her in with more information, make it clear to her why she is not up for the task (a little training should do the trick) and offer to help her.

I think he did make that clear, but he also lacked the knowledge that Kim had, the moon when it rose would be full and a horrible monster would be free to kill if it wasn't contained.  She never tells him about that, talk about withholding important information, if anyone is guilty of that, it is Kim!  Instead she plays on another weakness of Harry's.  "You think I'm not strong enough to pull this off..."  Kim is a woman, we know how messed up Harry is with them, in Storm Front Murphy is pissed because he still opens doors for women..  Harry is conflicted because on one hand he is old school gentleman, protective of women, on the other hand he knows a lot of strong women and respects them as such.. My point, this muddies the waters, another trick she tries to pull to get information from him.  He doesn't fall for it and again tells her up front she isn't at the level yet to pull such a circle off.  Then she stomps off before the argument or conversation goes any further.. Enter Murphy, emergency, no chance for Harry to ponder  on what Kim was up to or to go after her to see what she was really up to..

Kim was doomed the moment she agreed to help MacFinn knowing she didn't have the knowledge or training to pull off the kind of circle he needed.  Even if she was successful in her deception of Harry and he gave her all the information she wanted, that still wouldn't change the basic fact that she lacked training and full knowledge.  She might have gotten lucky and it worked, we'd have a different book.  But chances are because of lack of training, the circle still would have failed..
If Harry had refused the sandwich and refused to tell her anything, that still wouldn't have changed things.  MacFinn's circle was still broken, he'd be loose, she still most likely would have died anyway trying to fix it..  The whole series is about the choices people make and how they change things or don't.

[g33k]

... The thing is we know nothing about the relationship Harry and Kim had before this ...  He gave her pointers from time to time, he called her his sometime apprentice, but it is doubtful their relationship was that close ...

"Sometime apprentice" is a lot more than "pointers from time to time."  I think (don't have Fool Moon to hand, to find the bit to quote) that Harry had said Kim didn't have enough power to be a White Council wizard.

But I'm pretty certain you're right, they weren't "close," Kim didn't know Harry.

... Agreed, Harry could have handled it better, but would it have changed the outcome? The person responsible is Kim because she lied.

I think many of the people arguing this point fall into the same trap that Harry does:  Harry does his guilt-fest thing, "It's all my fault."  Some agree with Harry, in the end it IS his fault as the responsible party, the informed party, the mentor-role.  Some disagree, pointing out that Kim was a full adult, responsible for herself, and clearly had ENOUGH information that she should have known what she proposed doing was stupid.

The "trap" is to put 100% of the blame on one person or the other:  HIS fault and not hers, or HER fault and not his.

In reality, it was a clusterfuck.  A LOT of people screwed up, including Harry and Kim, but

...the ones who sabotaged MacFinn's circle ...

them too; and MacFinn (who wanted his convenient basement circle, instead of the inconvenient travel to isolation), and Tera West (who thought she could manage him), etc etc etc.

In the end, in a "the buck stops here" way, Kim is the person who owns the responsibility for her own actions.  But her choices were limited by her information, and Harry intentionally kept critical information out of her hands:  he cannot be held blameless.
 

[Bad Alias]

And only Harry giving her enough information to trust him and let her really understand her own limitations would have achieved that.

Just giving her a lot of information wouldn't have made her trust Harry. Later in the series, Harry comments on Molly's overconfidence and how he was overconfident early in his training. Information alone isn't enough to curb overconfidence due to inexperience. Trust in/Respect for authority is the only thing that can temper that overconfidence. (I mean, also experience).

I assume we're all subject matter experts in our respective fields (or maybe I'm overestimating some of your ages). I've had friends and family who completely ignore me or argue with me in my specific area of expertise. Sometimes people refuse to listen to subject matter experts. That's on them. It's not the experts fault if people refuse to listen.

I've also had the other extreme where people just want me to make a decision for them when my job is to advise and guide.

The "trap" is to put 100% of the blame on one person or the other:  HIS fault and not hers, or HER fault and not his.

...

But her choices were limited by her information, and Harry intentionally kept critical information out of her hands:  he cannot be held blameless.

How much blame would you put on Harry? There is a concept in the common law tradition that if someone is less than 50% at fault for an accident, and the other party is greater than 50% at fault, then the person who is greater than 50% at fault is legally responsible. Over the years, the concept has gotten more complicated in some jurisdictions. (Google "comparative liability" or "comparative negligence" and "contributory negligence" if interested in the concepts). I'm not saying that a 49/51 split is appropriate for moral responsibility, but at a certain point, if one's contribution is small enough, one is not responsible. Personally, I think Harry is at fault somewhere between epsilon and .1%.

What critical information did Harry keep from her and how would it have changed the situation? Both have to be true before Harry can be at fault.

Either commit fully when you choose to train someone, or stay in your tower.

I think this is a false dilemma, but I agree it's the closest thing to offering a solution. I think the only thing Harry could have done by Chapter 1 of Fool Moon to stop Kim was to physically stop her. He could have killed her, put a sleep spell on her, reported her to the wardens, put her in the hospital, kidnapper her, etc. Thinking on that, the most elegant solution would have been to agree to show her how to empower a greater circle by putting her in one.

I don't think Harry, or anyone, takes on full responsibility for someone for giving them the basics to keep them from accidental harm. Kim was one of the many Harry "coached" through the initial stages of coming into their magic. What the story says about her leaves me unclear as to whether she was more than them or the same. It implies more, but states the same. There's a lot of information, almost all of it concerning the nature/extent of their relationship, that could change my analysis. But I'm not going to blame Harry for teaching someone to control their power enough to not "set the curtains on fire," as I think he says in one of the earlier books, for what that person does later with that control when he refuses to teach them combat magic, necromancy, or whatever.

On the point of limiting information causing harm, I can't fathom why the White Council doesn't publicize the existence of the Seven Laws and that they get enforced. Put enough information with it for practitioners to realize that whoever the source is knows what they're talking about. These so-called wise men really should be able to make it known without compromising the Council's security.

[Mira]

In the end, in a "the buck stops here" way, Kim is the person who owns the responsibility for her own actions.  But her choices were limited by her information, and Harry intentionally kept critical information out of her hands:  he cannot be held blameless.

What blows that one out of the water though, is he made no secret that he wasn't going to tell her what she wanted to know.  That is a lot different than letting her go off thinking she had all she needed not knowing he left stuff out.   He can be held blameless in that he got pulled into this and the fact for whatever reason Kim not only lied to him but kept really vital information from him.. Like Harry, I have to have this and here is why.....

Just giving her a lot of information wouldn't have made her trust Harry. Later in the series, Harry comments on Molly's overconfidence and how he was overconfident early in his training. Information alone isn't enough to curb overconfidence due to inexperience. Trust in/Respect for authority is the only thing that can temper that overconfidence. (I mean, also experience).

Yeah, no amount of information would have dissuade her from her mission, and yeah, she was way over confident that she could pull it off.

I think this is a false dilemma, but I agree it's the closest thing to offering a solution. I think the only thing Harry could have done by Chapter 1 of Fool Moon to stop Kim was to physically stop her. He could have killed her, put a sleep spell on her, reported her to the wardens, put her in the hospital, kidnapper her, etc. Thinking on that, the most elegant solution would have been to agree to show her how to empower a greater circle by putting her in one.

He wouldn't have been able to do that either because Murphy was on scene shortly after Kim left.  They were in Mac's place, which also made it difficult.

What critical information did Harry keep from her and how would it have changed the situation? Both have to be true before Harry can be at fault.

He didn't leave any out, he was up front that he wasn't going to tell her anymore and why.. Now if he had kept from her that he withheld information that would be different.

I don't think Harry, or anyone, takes on full responsibility for someone for giving them the basics to keep them from accidental harm. Kim was one of the many Harry "coached" through the initial stages of coming into their magic. What the story says about her leaves me unclear as to whether she was more than them or the same. It implies more, but states the same. There's a lot of information, almost all of it concerning the nature/extent of their relationship, that could change my analysis. But I'm not going to blame Harry for teaching someone to control their power enough to not "set the curtains on fire," as I think he says in one of the earlier books, for what that person does later with that control when he refuses to teach them combat magic, necromancy, or whatever.

Goes back to what Father Forthill says about knowing what is in someone's head and foretell what they are going to do. 

On the point of limiting information causing harm, I can't fathom why the White Council doesn't publicize the existence of the Seven Laws and that they get enforced. Put enough information with it for practitioners to realize that whoever the source is knows what they're talking about. These so-called wise men really should be able to make it known without compromising the Council's security.

Which had a lot to do with Harry not going further than he did. 

In the end, in a "the buck stops here" way, Kim is the person who owns the responsibility for her own actions.  But her choices were limited by her information, and Harry intentionally kept critical information out of her hands:  he cannot be held blameless.
 

No, he did not,  he was limited because she refused to give him information, critical information, i.e. about MacFinn, what he was, and what had happened to his circle.. If she had done that, it may have turned out totally different. 

At the end of the exchange Harry felt he had done the right thing as set down by the White Council about such circles and based on his own knowledge of them, as much for Kim's own safety as he knew it as anything else.  His decision was ALLbased on the information he had been given by Kim.   She lied to him and withheld critical information from him that would have totally altered the decision he made.  End of story..

[Bad Alias]

He wouldn't have been able to do that either because Murphy was on scene shortly after Kim left.

My read of the text is that he was brooding for a while. It's not clear how much time passed.

They were in Mac's place, which also made it difficult.

He's a wizard. Also, he could manipulate her into leaving with him. "This is not to be discussed in public."

[morriswalters]

@Bad Alias

This isn't really about apportioning blame.  This is about Harry growing as a character.  If he doesn't make mistakes than how does he grow? In Kim's case you can either read it as he misjudged her or that he was so wrapped up in that sandwich that he lost track of his obligation as teacher.  But if you read it as he acted without error than exactly where do you go after that?

In point of fact the WC does advertise the Laws of Magic.  It comes up a couple of times.  Charity and the group she is with is warned about it pre Michael.  Bock's Books gets inspected.

[Mira]

My read of the text is that he was brooding for a while. It's not clear how much time passed.He's a wizard. Also, he could manipulate her into leaving with him. "This is not to be discussed in public."

  Would that have changed anything?  I doubt it, the only thing that could have changed anything was her being truthful and telling him the whole story. 
  He knew he had done the right thing, he didn't feel good about withholding the rest of the information, but he knew he had done the right thing based on the information Kim had given him and based on her level of talent..

Here is why  number one, he felt he had to protect her from herself and her own over confidence..
Next came the White Council

To say nothing of what the White Council would think of a nonwizard toying with major summoning circles.  The White Council didn't take chances with things like that.  They just acted, decisively, and they weren't always about people's lives and safety when they did it.

In other words he was afraid she could lose her head over this.
Last but not least,  he felt rotten because he thought she had trusted him to provide answers that this time he was unable to do..

I had done the right thing---even if she had trusted me to provide answers for her, as I had in the past, when teaching her to contain and control her modest magical talents.

Key word there is, her modest magical talents.  She didn't have the juice to pull off that kind of circle and Harry knew it, it would have been malpractice if he had given her all the information, the ending would have been the same.  The other key word is trust. Harry tried to answer her because he thought she trusted him to answer her questions, thus he trusted her to tell him the truth..  What he didn't know is she didn't trust him with the truth..  All in all, Harry did do the right thing, but sometimes doing the right thing can go terribly wrong..  He was damned if he did and damned if he didn't, the outcome would have still been the same,  Kim failing to contain MacFinn and him tearing her throat out.   Yes, Harry will never absolve himself totally even though he did do the right thing based on the information given to him and the talents of the person who gave him the information.

[Bad Alias]

This is about Harry growing as a character.  If he doesn't make mistakes than how does he grow? ...

In point of fact the WC does advertise the Laws of Magic.  It comes up a couple of times.  Charity and the group she is with is warned about it pre Michael.  Bock's Books gets inspected.

His mistake is the lesson he takes from these events. Kim didn't die because Harry gave too much or too little information. It's that he didn't garner the trust/respect he deserves. Later in the books, he does get more trust and respect, mostly.

The WC is only spreading word to people on their radar and doing so personally. They need to have seeded the information throughout the world's cultures where someone that wasn't on there radar would be likely to find the necessary information before they went warlock. It's funny; Harry has probably done that with the Paranet.

He wouldn't have been able to do that either because Murphy was on scene shortly after Kim left.

My read of the text is that he was brooding for a while. It's not clear how much time passed.

They were in Mac's place, which also made it difficult.

Also, he could manipulate her into leaving with him. "This is not to be discussed in public."

  Would that have changed anything?

Assuming "that" is Harry physically stopping her from performing the circle spell. I'm pretty sure she wouldn't have been ripped apart by MacFinn, MacFinn wouldn't have transformed in the middle of the city, Murphy wouldn't be at MacFinn's house, she wouldn't arrest Harry, Harry wouldn't have been shot, MacFinn wouldn't have been arrested, MacFinn wouldn't have killed all those people at the S.I., Rudolph might not hate Murphy and Harry, and probably a bunch of other stuff.

Now if "that" is convincing Kim to leave, that's an answer to your statement about them being at Mac's, so Harry couldn't physically stop her from performing the spell.

So to answer your question, yes.

In fact if he had convinced her to leave with him to show her how to perform the spell and then trapped her in a greater circle, she wouldn't have been able to perform the spell and might have realized she couldn't in the first place. Now if he finished his steak and potato, Murphy would have shown up, and he would have gone with her and told Kim to put a pin in it. Kim would have either overreacted and alerted Harry to the urgency of the situation or would have told him why it was so urgent. Murphy wouldn't have the drawing. Harry might not be overwhelmed by guilt. Harry might blame Murphy before she could blame him. That might convince her that he didn't do it. That he wasn't withholding information.

[Mira]

In fact if he had convinced her to leave with him to show her how to perform the spell and then trapped her in a greater circle, she wouldn't have been able to perform the spell and might have realized she couldn't in the first place. Now if he finished his steak and potato, Murphy would have shown up, and he would have gone with her and told Kim to put a pin in it. Kim would have either overreacted and alerted Harry to the urgency of the situation or would have told him why it was so urgent. Murphy wouldn't have the drawing. Harry might not be overwhelmed by guilt. Harry might blame Murphy before she could blame him. That might convince her that he didn't do it. That he wasn't withholding information.

  The answer is no, because Harry did try to stop her from leaving..

"Enjoy your mean, Harry," she said.  "And thanks for nothing."
I stood up as well, "Kim" I said. Wait a minute." But she ignored me.  She stalked off toward the door her skirt swaying along with her long hair.

If she didn't tell Harry why she needed the circle when he pressed her at Mac's, she wasn't going to be manipulated by him to go elsewhere to talk it over.  There were witnesses so he couldn't physically stop her from leaving.  This is a young woman who is convinced she is the hero of her own story.   Hubris,  "you think I am not strong enough to pull it off.."  Over confident, she wasn't going to let Harry manipulate her to go anywhere to "show her how to build that circle."  Nor would she easily be convinced that that wasn't the place to talk about it, partly because she was clueless about what she was asking..  I also think Murphy shows up quicker than you think, Kim stomps off on the bottom on one page and Murphy shows up on the top of the next and Harry is still nursing his ale.

[Dina]

In the end, in a "the buck stops here" way, Kim is the person who owns the responsibility for her own actions.  But her choices were limited by her information, and Harry intentionally kept critical information out of her hands:  he cannot be held blameless.

Well, many of us think the is blameless. I don't see why you are the one to decide if he can or cannot be held blameless.

[Bad Alias]

Mira, I don't know if you don't understand what I've written or if you are just not engaging it in good faith. You're not addressing it. Your response was basically why would Harry physically stopping her do any good. I responded to that. I gave examples of how that would do good. Then you said "Well, that's not what happened in the book." Well, yeah. I'm trying to get at what Harry could have done differently that would have succeeded. If you can outline my argument in your own words in detail, I can see where the miscommunication is happening. Try not to use unclear antecedents.

The answer is no[yes], because[but] Harry did[could] not try[succeed in] to stop[ping] her from leaving.

That would be a response to what I'm saying.

Dina, now I feel like I'm speaking Spanish.

[Dina]

Sorry I don't know what can be clearer. I agree with you Kim is the one responsible for her actions. I also agree there are others, like those who altered McFinn's circle. But I disagree Harry is one of those And, as I said, I am not the only one. So only because you say "Harry has to blame" it does not make it true.

[Mira]

Mira, I don't know if you don't understand what I've written or if you are just not engaging it in good faith. You're not addressing it. Your response was basically why would Harry physically stopping her do any good. I responded to that. I gave examples of how that would do good. Then you said "Well, that's not what happened in the book." Well, yeah. I'm trying to get at what Harry could have done differently that would have succeeded. If you can outline my argument in your own words in detail, I can see where the miscommunication is happening. Try not to use unclear antecedents.
That would be a response to what I'm saying.

Dina, now I feel like I'm speaking Spanish.

  What I am trying to tell you is what you are suggesting is kidnapping. So no Harry couldn't just drag her out of Mac's place, there were witnesses to the argument.  Nor since he had already began the explanation about the circle there in the pub, kind of hard to switch gears to "we cannot speak about this in public."  Kim was a determined and pissed off woman, doubtful that she'd submit quietly to either.   We were talking about the book, so that where my counter argument comes from.
 Dina understands you perfectly, like me, she just disagrees with you.

[Bad Alias]

@Dina: I was talking about Mira who is ignoring what I'm saying. She's arguing with me about my imagined responses to her arguments that she's left unsaid. She's skipping steps. When she skips steps she misconstrues my positions. On top of that, she's responding to things that are similar to the things I'm saying, but are not in fact things I have said. She cannot or refuses to restate my position.