Kincaid microfiction "Goodbye"

[Dina]

Now this is the text, and it speaks explicitly to the point. He gave her something that could kill her because he was hungry. If there is another way to read that I'm open to persuasion, but barring that, it is what it is.  This is some of Jim's weakest work.  It makes Harry look stupid.  This is a college student perspective, which is what he was when he wrote this.  If it was as dangerous as he states it, then he had no business giving it to her.  If he doesn't then she can't hurt herself with it and it doesn't matter if she listens or not.

What? Harry did not give her something that could kill her. That is the point. He gave her the information he thought was safe, because they had made a deal and he did not want to break it. And I don't think anything weak in JB writing here, it explains very well how Harry is. He is a man that can produce a lot of raw magic, he could explode a door, for instance. But he is desperate for food because he is not good at making money and because he is honorable and fundamentally good. It has to be frustrating. And on top of that he is always under the WC watch. He cannot tell to much to any non-WC. So much of what he does, most of what he is, must always be in hiding. Secrecy is what he has been taught and what he lived by. For him to tell even a few things to Kim are a big deal that he does because he wants to help her. So he tells her all what he feels is safe for her.

[morriswalters]

Again the text speaks for itself.  Here's some more.

“Oh, come on, Harry,” she told me. “You’re Chicago’s only practicing professional wizard, and you’re the only one who can help me.” She leaned across the table toward me, her eyes intent. “I can’t find the references for all of these symbols. No one in local circles recognizes them either. You’re the only real wizard I’ve ever even heard of, much less know. I just want to know what these others are.”
“No,” I told her. “You don’t want to know. You’re better off forgetting this circle and concentrating on something else.”

That by the way is the fourth paragraph Chapter One.  Straight out of her mouth, I can't look this up and no one but you knows what they mean. If he don't tell her she can pout and get over it.  And then multiple paragraphs involving Harry's stomach rumbling. I mean, come on, what does it take?

[Mira]

Again the text speaks for itself.  Here's some more.That by the way is the fourth paragraph Chapter One.  Straight out of her mouth, I can't look this up and no one but you knows what they mean. If he don't tell her she can pout and get over it.  And then multiple paragraphs involving Harry's stomach rumbling. I mean, come on, what does it take?

Before that, he says," no, absolutely not."   He hesitates to eat the food though he is very hungry.. 
Now come the HUGE LIES on Kim's part...

"Look Harry," Kim said. "I'm not using this for anything serious, I promise.  "I'm not trying to summoning or binding. It's an academic interest only. She leaned forward and put her hand over mine.

Next page. 

"You're sure?"  I asked her.  "This is just you trying to scratch and itch?"
"Cross my heart," she said, doing so.

Harry is still reluctant to tell her anything.

I frowned. "I don't know. . ."

Then she gets all charming, "Oh come on,Harry it's no big deal.
So then he begins to explain it to her... Until he realizes it couldn't be an academic exercise and refuses to tell her what the inner most ring means.
He tells her

"You don't need to know that, either.  Not for academic interest.  I don't know what you got in mind, Kim but leave it alone.  Forget it.  Walk away, before you get hurt."

He says further, realizing she has been lying to him all along...

"Save it," I told her. "You're sitting on a tiger cage, Kim." I thumped a finger on the paper for emphasis. "And you wouldn't need it if you weren't planning on trying to stick a tiger in there."

She then proceeds to get pissed and accuses him of thinking she isn't strong enough.  Then he tells her she doesn't have the training and the experience, and refuses to tell her more.. Her parting shot is he is about the same age as she is..

Seems to me, Harry's warning was pretty clear,  he also refused to tell her more once he realized she was lying to him...  She chooses to continue to lie to him, and she chooses not to tell him why she wants it, i.e. to contain a Loop..  Harry hates the argument but knows he did the right thing by not telling her everything.   It isn't like he didn't spell out the danger to her..  She made a series of bad choices and paid for it with her life... Harry isn't responsible when he is lied to like he was...

[forumghost]

Again the text speaks for itself.  Here's some more.That by the way is the fourth paragraph Chapter One.  Straight out of her mouth, I can't look this up and no one but you knows what they mean. If he don't tell her she can pout and get over it.  And then multiple paragraphs involving Harry's stomach rumbling. I mean, come on, what does it take?

The thing is, none of the stuff he actually told her was dangerous. All he did was explain what each level of the Circle was for, what she got was:

"This is a normal spiritual circle. This one forms a Physical Barrier, this one is somewhere in between" Even if this was entirely new information to her (which I doubt, since MacFinn probably knew something about it) none of that information would in any way enable her. It was entirely descriptive. The practical application of how to do anything with the Circle was what he refused to give her, in fact.

He then warns her that trying to use such a Circle to bind anything is beyond her skill level and will get her, and others, killed, so he won't tell her how to turn one on. She then throws a fit because "You're not my dad, you can't tell me what to do" and storms off, decides to fuck with it despite not knowing what to do, and surprising nobody, got herself (and others) killed.

[morriswalters]

Adult tip 101.  Never go to the store when you are hungry.  Adult tip 102.  If an adult says cross my heart, smack them, and suggest that they find someone else to flummox.  If you ignore those adult tips then obviously you shouldn't be let out without a leash.  Back in the day when he wrote this Jim had a boy beard, today he has a man beard.  We know this because it is grey, which is the direct result of all the fibs your kids tell you when they are trying to wheedle whatever it is they want out of you.

@forumghost
Obviously the story belies that interpretation.  After Harry tells her what the three circles  do, he refuses to tell her how to empower them.  Which is what gets her killed. Until he gives them meaning they might as well be in Sanskrit. Since according to the quotes I posted she was clueless until Harry got finished, then in my estimation he owns it.  Whatever you doubt she specifically says that he is the only one who knows, that she has access to.  Again I quoted that.

[Mira]

Adult tip 101.  Never go to the store when you are hungry.  Adult tip 102.  If an adult says cross my heart, smack them, and suggest that they find someone else to flummox.  If you ignore those adult tips then obviously you shouldn't be let out without a leash.  Back in the day when he wrote this Jim had a boy beard, today he has a man beard.  We know this because it is grey, which is the direct result of all the fibs your kids tell you when they are trying to wheedle whatever it is they want out of you.

  Smack them?  Really?  How adult..  As Forumghost said, Harry explained, he treated it like an academic exercise, when he realized that wasn't what she wanted he refused to tell her more.. 

@forumghost
Obviously the story belies that interpretation.  After Harry tells her what the three circles  do, he refuses to tell her how to empower them.  Which is what gets her killed. Until he gives them meaning they might as well be in Sanskrit. Since according to the quotes I posted she was clueless until Harry got finished, then in my estimation he owns it.  Whatever you doubt she specifically says that he is the only one who knows, that she has access to.  Again I quoted that.

Perhaps a little more interpretation?   You think if Harry told her how to empower them she would have survived?  Harry flat out told her,

"Your strength's got nothing to do with it."  I said. "You don't have the training.  You don't have the knowledge.  I wouldn't expect a kid in grade school to sit down and figure out college calculus."

Yes, there are prodigies, Harry was a bit of one, that is why he is a full wizard...  Kim isn't, and Harry flat out told her she was years away in both training and knowledge from pulling it off.  If he had told her how to do it, then he would have owned it.   No, at no point is Kim clueless, that is why she lied through her teeth..  She may not have known the mechanics of that circle, but she knew what it was for and she knew it was no ordinary circle way beyond her limited knowledge..  Her total dishonesty absolves Harry of any responsibility.

[morriswalters]

I don't think the smack will ever be needed. 

Perhaps a little more interpretation?   You think if Harry told her how to empower them she would have survived?  Harry flat out told her,

No, I think if Harry had kept his yap shut and refused to talk at all that she might have survived.  But you never know sometimes random works.

[Bad Alias]

If you aren't hungry when you go to the store, how will you know what you want to eat? 

[Arjan]

I don't think the smack will ever be needed.  No, I think if Harry had kept his yap shut and refused to talk at all that she might have survived.  But you never know sometimes random works.

That or telling her more. She knew just enough to get killed. But she probably felt she had to try anyway because the alternative was to let MacFinn on a killing spree every month and she just wanted to get all information that could help her.

Knowing the limits of what you know is often more important than exactly how much you know.

This is early Harry. I think later Harry would have acted differently. Only Harry helping her with the circle would have made a difference.

[Bad Alias]

Only Harry helping her with the circle would have made a difference.

And only her telling him what was really going on would have allowed Harry to help with the circle.

[Arjan]

And only her telling him what was really going on would have allowed Harry to help with the circle.

And only Harry giving her enough information to trust him and let her really understand her own limitations would have achieved that.

[Avernite]

Now this is the text, and it speaks explicitly to the point. He gave her something that could kill her because he was hungry. If there is another way to read that I'm open to persuasion, but barring that, it is what it is.  This is some of Jim's weakest work.  It makes Harry look stupid.  This is a college student perspective, which is what he was when he wrote this.  If it was as dangerous as he states it, then he had no business giving it to her.  If he doesn't then she can't hurt herself with it and it doesn't matter if she listens or not.

Maybe Harry had no business giving it to her, but still, unlike Korean kid, Kim had a teacher available and chose not to listen.

I am perfectly willing to continue this other discussion if you acknowledge that, okay, Kim's situation isn't like Korean kid's, because for my original argument this isn't a relevant point.


Now then, on to "should Harry have known better" - yes, he should have, and does; Fool Moon's first page is Harry explicitly spelling out he knows better. Only after the twin pushes of Kim saying it is academic only (a lie) and the food (a bribe) does he do it, which is evidently sub-optimal, but it is when the lie is proven wrong that he backtracks again (a correlation to his having food is there too, I guess).

So Harry's first instinct was 'give no information'; probably safe, but got lied past by Kim's choice.
His second approach was 'give limited information' which failed.
His third possible approach was 'give all information' which Harry thinks would inevitably fail too, because even with that information Kim couldn't do it (and since she was lying about the why, Harry couldn't do it for her - even if he had the ability, which I am not sure of).

[Arjan]

Maybe Harry had no business giving it to her, but still, unlike Korean kid, Kim had a teacher available and chose not to listen.

I am perfectly willing to continue this other discussion if you acknowledge that, okay, Kim's situation isn't like Korean kid's, because for my original argument this isn't a relevant point.

Kim did not break any law and she was not as crazy as the Korean kid. 

Now then, on to "should Harry have known better" - yes, he should have, and does; Fool Moon's first page is Harry explicitly spelling out he knows better. Only after the twin pushes of Kim saying it is academic only (a lie) and the food (a bribe) does he do it, which is evidently sub-optimal, but it is when the lie is proven wrong that he backtracks again (a correlation to his having food is there too, I guess).

Harry finished his plate I suppose. Early Harry is too shortsighted and egocentric.

So Harry's first instinct was 'give no information'; probably safe, but got lied past by Kim's choice.
His second approach was 'give limited information' which failed.
His third possible approach was 'give all information' which Harry thinks would inevitably fail too, because even with that information Kim couldn't do it (and since she was lying about the why, Harry couldn't do it for her - even if he had the ability, which I am not sure of).

His fourth possible approach was lure her in with more information, make it clear to her why she is not up for the task (a little training should do the trick) and offer to help her.

This is beyond early Harry I admit but it would be the only approach with some chance of success. That or calling the wardens to close it down but Harry's relationship with the wardens at that point in time makes that approach maybe even more dangerous.

[Arjan]

Offer Toot a pizza if he can break out of Kim's circle. Really that should do it 

[morriswalters]

@Avernite
The point about the Korean kid was a distraction and I shouldn't have used it.  My apologies.  Kim is responsible for her death.  Harry's responsibility falls around not recognizing that his knowledge is much more dangerous than Calculus.  Either commit fully when you choose to train someone, or stay in your tower.