Kincaid microfiction "Goodbye"

[Dina]

No, Kim and Susan's changing are not on Harry. They were clever adult women who choose what to do. Harry did not force to do anything. Actions have consequences. Like Harry should have asked about the chance of Susan being pregnant but I agree he probably thought she could not conceive. I know I thought the same. I also know that if Susan was aware of the chance of conceiving, she should have taken measures.

But I also know that I always hated Maggie's existence and the fact that Susan did not tell Harry about her. I also hated the excess of love that Harry felt for a child he has never known but I understand what Redepisg says. I mean, for me that explains but not justifies Harry's behavior, just like Susan probably had reasons of her own to be that way. Only we don't know them because she is not the main character of the saga we love.

That said, in general I agree with Mira and forumghost. And again, I don't think Harry was selfish in his suicide (but he was selfish in doing all what he did in Changes, disregarding his own friends).

[Arjan]

Kim and Susan had their own responsibility but Harry is still responsible for how he handled it. It is not a binary thing. Just because Susan is responsible for what she does does not mean Harry is not responsible for what he did to help form that decision.

Responsibility and free will are concepts created by humans to help us decide how to react to other people. They are a often poor description of reality.

But with these concepts in mind we look at what people say and do and we decide if we want to help them or avoid them or maybe even punish them. They are expressions of the human herd instinct, human nature which is a good thing. It makes living together with so many humans possible which is an incredible achievement knowing how many humans there are at the moment.

https://www.worldometers.info/world-population/

[forumghost]

Harry to Kim: "No I won't show you how to do this thing because you won't tell me what it's about and it's above you're skill level"
Kim: *Does it, it's beyond her skill, she dies, Surprised Pikachu face*

Harry to Susan: "Neither of us are going to this Party because the monsters aren't interested in doing interviews with what are, from their PoV, Hamburgers- and even if they were, this particular Vampire has a hate-boner for me and is 100% going to try and pull something"

Susan *Does it, gets turned, Surprised Pikachu face*

Harry told them both it was dangerous and would fuck them over (which honestly was all he owed them), and they both took that knowledge and went "I know better then the Wizard that knows about this shit, Imma do it any way"

The fact that Harry blames himself for either of their fates is nothing more then his Neurosis coming into play. They were told the stove was hot, it's nobodies fault but their own they decided to touch it.

[Arjan]

Harry to Kim: "No I won't show you how to do this thing because you won't tell me what it's about and it's above you're skill level"
Kim: *Does it, it's beyond her skill, she dies, Surprised Pikachu face*

Harry to Susan: "Neither of us are going to this Party because the monsters aren't interested in doing interviews with what are, from their PoV, Hamburgers- and even if they were, this particular Vampire has a hate-boner for me and is 100% going to try and pull something"

Susan *Does it, gets turned, Surprised Pikachu face*

Harry told them both it was dangerous and would fuck them over (which honestly was all he owed them), and they both took that knowledge and went "I know better then the Wizard that knows about this shit, Imma do it any way"

The fact that Harry blames himself for either of their fates is nothing more then his Neurosis coming into play. They were told the stove was hot, it's nobodies fault but their own they decided to touch it.

And yet he learned from it and handled later instances better.

Kim was ringing a huge alarm bell and he ignored it until it was too late and it was not just her life that was at stake. It is like you see a huge disaster that is going to happen. You can not just shrug it of with it their free will, I take cover.

Susan and Harry were in a relationship together. Of course he asks himself what he could have done better. There comes a moment when you have to stop doing that but not doing it is also very wrong.

Yes Harry takes too much blame but taking no blame at all is also wrong. It comes too close to not caring.

[Mira]

No, Kim and Susan's changing are not on Harry. They were clever adult women who choose what to do. Harry did not force to do anything. Actions have consequences. Like Harry should have asked about the chance of Susan being pregnant but I agree he probably thought she could not conceive. I know I thought the same. I also know that if Susan was aware of the chance of conceiving, she should have taken measures.

But I also know that I always hated Maggie's existence and the fact that Susan did not tell Harry about her. I also hated the excess of love that Harry felt for a child he has never known but I understand what Redepisg says. I mean, for me that explains but not justifies Harry's behavior, just like Susan probably had reasons of her own to be that way. Only we don't know them because she is not the main character of the saga we love.

That said, in general I agree with Mira and forumghost. And again, I don't think Harry was selfish in his suicide (but he was selfish in doing all what he did in Changes, disregarding his own friends).

  I don't think he disregarded his friends in Changes,  I think he was determined not to repeat a mistake he made too often previously, trying to go it alone and his friends got hurt or worse because they jumped in to help him with little information.  No, all his friends knew before hand that this was not going to be a Sunday picnic,  putting two Holy Swords and his godmother joining in if nothing else told them that.  Yet they willingly followed and would have even if never asked.

Yes Harry takes too much blame but taking no blame at all is also wrong. It comes too close to not caring.

Very true,  but there are few who accuse Harry of not caring.  But there is a difference in acknowledging mistakes and taking responsibility for them and thinking it was all your fault.
The first, you learn from and try not to repeat because people get hurt and or die, the second is
it's own type of wallowing selfishness, and it can paralyze one from acting at all.  On the second, save for Michael, Harry's friends fail him.

The fact that Harry blames himself for either of their fates is nothing more then his Neurosis coming into play. They were told the stove was hot, it's nobodies fault but their own they decided to touch it.

Very true, but one lesson perhaps is to put a fence around the stove, but some are determined to climb it and touch the stove anyway.   In the end both Kim and Susan were responsible for themselves and decided to ignore the reality of what Harry was telling them.  Susan had read Dracula so decided that she knew how to protect herself over the warnings of a fully trained wizard who seriously wanted to pass on that party.  Kim not only to lied to Harry about why she wanted the information, but decided as someone who didn't even have the grade of apprentice could handle something like a Loop.   Just because you have taken a first aid course that doesn't qualify you to do brain surgery,  you gotta know when to deffer to someone a lot more qualified that you are. 

[Arjan]

Very true, but one lesson perhaps is to put a fence around the stove, but some are determined to climb it and touch the stove anyway.   In the end both Kim and Susan were responsible for themselves and decided to ignore the reality of what Harry was telling them.  Susan had read Dracula so decided that she knew how to protect herself over the warnings of a fully trained wizard who seriously wanted to pass on that party.  Kim not only to lied to Harry about why she wanted the information, but decided as someone who didn't even have the grade of apprentice could handle something like a Loop.   Just because you have taken a first aid course that doesn't qualify you to do brain surgery,  you gotta know when to deffer to someone a lot more qualified that you are.

If I want I can go to the nearest univerity bookstore and read for myself how difficult brain surgery is and what can go wrong. I probably give up after some reading but that in itself tells me something. Harry's secrecy is really not helping here.

And because of that secrecy Susan had no clue about how dangerous the whole situation was and how serious she had to take Harry's warning and how useless her precautions were.

We can not expect everyone to blindly trust Harry in everything even if it sounds so reasonable because we are in his head. Susan was not. She was a journalist. They go to warzones which is pretty stupid if you think about it.

So he probably could have done more to prevent her from going, she should not have seen the invitation at all.

But the real reason Harry blames himself for everything is his past as a warlock, he is overcompensating. The Harry we see in his flashback in Ghost Story is not like that but he killed Justin with magic breaking the laws.

Eb did not teach Harry magic, he teached when to use it and why and his first priority was saving Harry from himself. The overcompensation is a direct result from Ebenezar changing Harry's nature.

Breaking the laws changes you even if you do not become a warlock.

[Dina]

Using magic in self-defense is not against the rules.

And Harry told both of them it was dangerous, if they decided not to hear them, it's on them.

Mira, you may be right about Harry's friends. They willingly went with him.

[Mira]

And because of that secrecy Susan had no clue about how dangerous the whole situation was and how serious she had to take Harry's warning and how useless her precautions were.

Look, Harry could have given her a full course on how dangerous vamps are and she still would have stole that invitation.   He told her outright what they'd do to her, why he was afraid, yet she didn't respect his knowledge or the kind of power he has as a wizard.   Frankly she let some notion of Harry being over protective of her as a woman get in the way of what he was trying to tell her.  If Susan was clueless, it was because she chose to be clueless.

We can not expect everyone to blindly trust Harry in everything even if it sounds so reasonable because we are in his head. Susan was not. She was a journalist. They go to warzones which is pretty stupid if you think about it.

Yes, and many are killed doing so, they know it is dangerous to go into a war zone, they take their chances and what happens is on them.  No, not blindly trust, however Susan had an idea of how powerful Harry is, so his fear alone should have told her something.  He tried to tell her, but she chose not to listen.

If I want I can go to the nearest univerity bookstore and read for myself how difficult brain surgery is and what can go wrong. I probably give up after some reading but that in itself tells me something. Harry's secrecy is really not helping here.

Maybe you would, but as my brother in law says, " some people know just enough to be dumb.."  They've had an anatomy class, they've taken first aid, they read a book, how hard can it be?  Harry wasn't making a secret of how dangerous vamps can be,  Susan chose to ignore the facts and most importantly, his experience,  she'd read Dracula, she'd watched Harry fight off demons and a Loop and survived, so how hard could it be to survive a den of vamps and other monsters? 

So he probably could have done more to prevent her from going, she should not have seen the invitation at all.

If I remember correctly she was there when he got it..   And honestly, what difference does that make?  He can't be held responsible for the fact that she is a thief...

[Avernite]

Interesting as it is, do we really need round #N of the "Harry was/was not responsible for Kim's/Susan's fate"?

As to the microfiction, I think the last sentence "never did say goodbye" must mean either:
A) Kincaid never speaks to Ivy in private again or
B) Kincaid actually cares that he never said goodbye to Harry

But then his tough 'I don't care' act is firmly broken further up in the story, so who knows, maybe it really is B.

[Redepisg]

Interesting as it is, do we really need round #N of the "Harry was/was not responsible for Kim's/Susan's fate"?

This is a new argument for me, so just one more thing.

Harry has involvement in what happened to both of them due to his refusal to give them enough information to make an informed choice when he had the opportunity.  Instead, when Harry refuses to help Kim she assumes Harry's just treating her like an ignorant apprentice and goes ahead with her plan and gets killed for it.  If Harry had helped her out would she have gone ahead with it?  Probably, and she might or might not have succeeded with his assistance; he might even have gone there personally when he realized what was at stake.  We'll never know.  But Harry?  He insists on playing the "I'm a mysterious wizard, and I won't explain any of the reasoning behind my decisions" card, and it pretty much cost Kim her life.  He basically ensured her failure by intentionally holding back information that could have helped.  Granted, she was probably feeling pretty good about her skills by that point, had probably succeeded at some difficult things already, and that gave her the sense that she was ready to go up to the next level.  Spoiler:  She wasn't, and now she'll never be.

With Susan, he had made sure she knew vampires were dangerous, but judging by her actions she clearly had no idea just how dangerous they could be.  Would she still have gone through with her plan if he had sat her down and made her understand?  Something tells me she would, but something also tells me she would have been better prepared at the same time.  She's ambitious, not stupid.  She was fully convinced her preparations were enough to ensure her safety.  She was wrong.  Why?  Because she didn't have the necessary information.  Both of them had just enough information to get in over their heads but not enough to realize it until it was too late.  Why?  Because Harry Dresden refused to tell them. 

Both of them got where they ended up through their own decisions based on what they thought they knew.  Who had ample opportunity to correct their mistaken assumptions but didn't?  Harry Dresden.  Kim even asked him for help, and he refused.

I'm not saying Harry's fully responsible, but he definitely had a hand in what happened to them by denying vital information.

--------------

Now, about the microfiction.

Seems like Kincaid is telling himself all sorts of things.  "It's only a job."  Ha, yeah right.  He's grown to care for her in his own weird way.

[Arjan]

He had to pay back his debt, that is in his nature. In a sense Harry abused him.

[morriswalters]

Interesting as it is, do we really need round #N of the "Harry was/was not responsible for Kim's/Susan's fate"?

As to the microfiction, I think the last sentence "never did say goodbye" must mean either:
A) Kincaid never speaks to Ivy in private again or
B) Kincaid actually cares that he never said goodbye to Harry

But then his tough 'I don't care' act is firmly broken further up in the story, so who knows, maybe it really is B.

C)  She fired him and he left without saying goodbye.

[Bad Alias]

And because of that secrecy Susan had no clue about how dangerous the whole situation was and how serious she had to take Harry's warning and how useless her precautions were.

...

she should not have seen the invitation at all.

What more, specifically, should Harry have done? That may very well be why the invitation was delivered in front of her. To force Harry into the situation at the party.

@Redepisg: I think you need to reread the scene with Kim. She repeatedly lies to Harry. Harry tells she has a tiger cage and the only reason to use a tiger cage is to catch a tiger. Kim insists that it's purely academic. She refuses to let Harry help her. He basically told her she can't succeed even if he tells her everything. That summoning whatever she's trying to summon would get her, and others, killed. If she had told Harry the truth, he would have helped her. She'd be alive, MacFinn would be alive. Murphy wouldn't have betrayed Harry. Harry would have a rich and powerful ally who could help him in the mortal realm.

I still have no idea what people expected Harry to do to convince Susan not to go to the party. He said he wasn't going to the party because he could survive pissing off the Council, but not the party.

If Seal Team Six tells you it's too dangerous for them to go in, why would you think you'd be fine?

[Dina]

Exactly, Bad Alias.
Redepisg, I don't understand why you still want to blame Dresden. Is it because they are pretty women? (I kid, of course. But I seriously don't understand your reasoning to give them a pass)

Interesting as it is, do we really need round #N of the "Harry was/was not responsible for Kim's/Susan's fate"?

Oh, I haven't done it in years. It feels good to do it again 

[kbrizzle]

Some thoughts:

One of the leitmotifs of the series is personal choice & living with the consequences of those actions. If Harry has to live with his, why shouldn’t Kim & Susan live with theirs?The arguments that say Harry is responsible for their deaths are like saying Michael is responsible for Harry picking up Lasciel’s Coin in DM because Harry was never warned specifically about Shadows....

Of course Harry feels guilty about the fates of Kim & Susan - he knows they were avoidable in hindsight, had he imposed his will on both of them & abrogated theirs - in Harry’s POV this would make him no better than a lot of tyrants (especially given his background with Justin etc.).

@Arjan
I think you’re really reaching there about Harry ‘abusing’ Kincaid in any sense of the word - Kincaid is not the type of person who puts up with abuse...

The main reason I imagine Harry used Kincaid instead of Lara for his suicide is likely because Kincaid is a paid assassin. He likely had no idea asking for this would create a rift between Ivy & Kincaid - I’m also sure that if Kincaid told Harry about Ivy being left completely alone if he took the assisted suicide contract, Harry would pick someone else.

Also the Archive has been known as the Oracle in the past - perhaps this is a calculated decision made by Ivy that will eventually benefit all.

@Avernite
C. Kincaid left without saying goodbye to Ivy because he doesn’t believe this is the end of their relationship