Kincaid microfiction "Goodbye"

[morriswalters]

@morris: I don't see why you say Harry has any responsibility in these circumstances. If there was something he could have done, without the benefit of hindsight, then I'd say he has some responsibility.

How did Susan find out about the Ball? How did she find out about the invitation and what it looked like?  Susan was a reporter willing to sleep with him to get in close and Harry knew it.  So what did he do?  He slept with her.  Read Chapter 8 in Grave Peril.  Harry should have dated a stripper.  Better sex and fewer questions.  If a crappy book.

In terms of Kim Delaney he gives her a magical device, or whatever it was, and she uses it to get killed.  He took her word for something and she lied.  So your kids ask for a puppy.  They promise that without fail, that if you let them have it, they will take care of it and walk it ten times a day.  Pop quiz.  Are they lying?  Well of course they are.  Their desire for the puppy leads them to write checks they can't cash.  Harry sold out for a steak dinner.

But I couldn’t just go and eat the dinner without giving Kim the information she wanted. It’s not that I’ve never welshed on a deal, but I’ve never done it with anyone human—and definitely not with someone who looked up to me.
Sometimes I hate having a conscience, and a stupidly thorough sense of honor.
“All right, all right,” I sighed. “Let me get the dinner and I’ll tell you what I know.”

He should have ate Ramen.

[Mira]

How did Susan find out about the Ball? How did she find out about the invitation and what it looked like?  Susan was a reporter willing to sleep with him to get in close and Harry knew it.  So what did he do?  He slept with her.  Read Chapter 8 in Grave Peril.  Harry should have dated a stripper.  Better sex and fewer questions.  If a crappy book.

Hold on,  you are blaming him for not wanting to live like a monk when everyone was saying how abnormal it was when he was living like that?   There again,  it isn't like Harry raped her, Susan chose to sleep with him to get the scoop didn't she?  Harry was the vulnerable one actually because sexually and socially he was so fucked up, and she took full advantage to further her career..

In terms of Kim Delaney he gives her a magical device, or whatever it was, and she uses it to get killed.  He took her word for something and she lied.  So your kids ask for a puppy.  They promise that without fail, that if you let them have it, they will take care of it and walk it ten times a day.  Pop quiz.  Are they lying?  Well of course they are.  Their desire for the puppy leads them to write checks they can't cash.  Harry sold out for a steak dinner.

No, he didn't, he stopped giving information when he realized she actually wanted it to use it. He warned her that using it was far above her training or experience... Her comeback was he was the same age she was or near it, ergo her qualifications were as good as his..  No, your puppy analogy doesn't work, it is more like she lied to him about wanting to know how to construct an atomic dirty bomb because she was doing a school paper on terrorism, when actually she was planning to put the bomb together.  She was a friend, he thought he knew her, if he is at fault for anything, he was too trusting.  No, he didn't sell out for a steak dinner, if he had, he would have given all the information, she still would have died because even with the information she wasn't qualified to put it together.  When he realized she was going to use it, he told her exactly that, tried to question her about it, warned her, and she blew him off, saying he was the same age as her so that makes her just as qualified and threw the paper that he had drawn back at him...  Then she proceeded to go back to MacFinn lacking even that much information.. Um, who's fault is that?  Oh on the puppy thing?  The animal shelters are full of puppies and dogs that people lie to themselves and others about what  good care they are going to give...  It rarely turns out well for the puppies or the dogs.. 

[morriswalters]

@Mira
I'm answering a specific question.  Could Harry have made different choices?    Should he live like a Monk?  I wouldn't if I was the fictional character.  But that choice brings baggage.  That you don't like the baggage doesn't give you a pass when things don't go the way you plan.  Cutting Susan's throat at Chichen Itza is the sum of all the choices made by all the characters prior to the event.  Father Forthill states it pretty succinctly.

“Power,” he said, waving a hand in an all-encompassing gesture. “All power is the same. Magic. Physical strength. Economic strength. Political strength. It all serves a single purpose—it gives its possessor a broader spectrum of choices. It creates alternative courses of action.”
“I guess,” I said. “So?”
“So,” he said. “You have more choices. Which means that you have much improved odds of making mistakes. You’re only human. Once in a while, you’re going to screw the pooch.”
“I don’t mind that,” I said. “When I’m the only one who pays for it.”
“But that isn’t in your control,” he said. “You cannot see all outcomes. You couldn’t have known that those creatures would go to the Carpenter house.”
I ground my teeth. “So? Daniel’s still hurt. Molly could be dead.”
“But their condition was not yours to ordain,” Forthill said. “All power has its limits.”

[Mira]

@Mira
I'm answering a specific question.  Could Harry have made different choices?    Should he live like a Monk?  I wouldn't if I was the fictional character.  But that choice brings baggage.  That you don't like the baggage doesn't give you a pass when things don't go the way you plan.  Cutting Susan's throat at Chichen Itza is the sum of all the choices made by all the characters prior to the event.  Father Forthill states it pretty succinctly.

Yes, he does and you seem to be ignoring what he is saying.

“But that isn’t in your control,” he said. “You cannot see all outcomes. You couldn’t have known that those creatures would go to the Carpenter house.”
I ground my teeth. “So? Daniel’s still hurt. Molly could be dead.”
“But their condition was not yours to ordain,” Forthill said. “All power has its limits.”

In other words, Harry cannot get in the head of others, he can neither control Kim's lies or her failure to come clean as to why she wanted the knowledge.. Nor could he limit the lengths Susan would go to to further her career.  Nor can he cut himself off from such people, or stop himself from coming to love such people or be friends with or try to help these people..  All he could do, he did, he tried to warn them out of his own experience, but he is forbidden to use mind control over them..  As Bad Alias said, no amount of explanation about vamps would have stopped Susan from going to that party..  Kim chose not to tell Harry everything as to why she wanted that knowledge, she chose to lie.   As Father Forthill said, “But their condition was not yours to ordain,” Forthill said. “All power has its limits.”   How Susan ended up, tragic as it is was basically the product of her own condition, Harry has power, but it has it's limits..  Only exception here is the birth control issue that resulted in the birth of Maggie... But even that was complicated by a whole lot of things like physical/mental condition and vamp venom, having sex then wasn't responsible for either party, but in that condition neither can they be held responsible.

[Dina]

You are quite understandable.

Thanks 

Totally agree,  actually Kim wasn't Harry's apprentice, she was just someone with talent and a friend that he gave instruction to from time to time.  Supposedly she was merely asking him an academic question, his mistake was trying to answer it as honestly as he could with in the rules of the White Council.  By the time he realized her question wasn't merely academic he had already  told her too much, but then he proceeded to tell her he wouldn't tell her more, why he couldn't and why it was so dangerous for someone with her level of training to even attempt it.  All she did was get pissed and stomp out,  not sure what he could have done, he got a bit side tracked himself shortly after that.
Totally agree Bad Alias,  I'd only add that Susan had been using Harry repeatedly to get "scoops" to further her career, so no amount of impressing would have deterred her from trying to go to that party.  No, Harry isn't perfect and he has made plenty of mistakes, but what happened to both Susan and Kim is mostly on them.

You are right.

In terms of Kim Delaney he gives her a magical device, or whatever it was, and she uses it to get killed.  He took her word for something and she lied.  So your kids ask for a puppy.  They promise that without fail, that if you let them have it, they will take care of it and walk it ten times a day.  Pop quiz.  Are they lying?  Well of course they are.  Their desire for the puppy leads them to write checks they can't cash.  Harry sold out for a steak dinner.He should have ate Ramen.

Again the kids metaphor. Again I don't think it applies.  You gave a pass to your children. If your husband (for instance) is the one wanting a puppy and he promises to take care of it and he does not, he is to blame and it is not your fault that he does not.

About Maggie's conception: Yes, both of them are to blame because the lack of precautions. At first, specially Harry, because Susan was in not condition to think. But after the moment happened, it was Susan decisions what to do. Harry tried to contact her (not because he thought on a baby, just because he cared for her) and she avoided him.

Let's be real. Imagine a couple, having unprotected sex. That is, of course, wrong from both of them. Then, the following day he calls her and she says she is leaving to another country and she will be very busy with her work. She does not call him again. It is his fault that she discovered she was pregnant, decided to keep the secret, carry the baby alone, gave her on adoption and never told the father until the child gets ill and the foster family wants to find the biological father to see if he can spare a lung for a transplant? (Just an example, of course). Note that I am not mentioning why the woman did that. Perhaps she is just not ready for a kid, perhaps she suddenly enters in witness protection and can't risk the child, perhaps she does not like the father and think he could be abusive to the child, there could be 1000 reasons.

Of course, Harry and Susan have supernatural complications. As I said, perhaps they did not know that she could conceive (but as Susan was the one working with St.whathisname people, she was in a better position to have asked the question. I know I would have asked that almost immediately. And, as I said, if I knew I am able to conceive and also have issues that could make me lost the control I would take pills, or have an intrauterine device or whatever could work in half-turned (unless I was actually planning to have a child with someone)

[Mira]

Of course, Harry and Susan have supernatural complications. As I said, perhaps they did not know that she could conceive (but as Susan was the one working with St.whathisname people, she was in a better position to have asked the question. I know I would have asked that almost immediately. And, as I said, if I knew I am able to conceive and also have issues that could make me lost the control I would take pills, or have an intrauterine device or whatever could work in half-turned (unless I was actually planning to have a child with someone)

Yes, and let's not disregard the elephant in the room, the vamp venom.  It acts like "spanish fly" on the victim so the vamp can feed. And as we saw when Bianca fed on her beloved secretary, can lead to loss of control on the part of the vamp. That is why the rope suggestion from Molly because of Harry's fear of having sex with Susan, least she kill him.  I believe getting the rope and agreeing to be tied up was a mutual thing, but done under the influence of the venom.   Also Harry had been hurt and tortured just hours before, not thinking exactly straight, in fact was in such bad shape that Susan didn't want to leave him alone, though Martin knew what could happen and warned  both of them against her going back to Harry's place and staying with him.. Oh and the spell that led to Harry locking down his place until dawn.  Harry also smelled from his blood loss which excited Susan, which led to the release of venom and the licking of venom, which led to the getting the rope..  So yeah, unprotected sex under the influence,  yes, irresponsible if done under the influence of deliberate drinking or drug intake.. However while one could say it was irresponsible, at the same time neither were exactly in control enough to be held responsible..  The only one who might have prevented it was Martin, he could have told Susan to drive the car and he'd look after Harry.. He didn't and as we know now he had his own agenda..

[morriswalters]

Harry isn't a walking penis with no higher functions, and Susan isn't a ambitious slut.  There is no simpler way to say it.  In a modern sense neither Harry or Susan are fit parents.  Harry's antecedents are so paranoid that his own grandfather won't claim him outright. Zombie's assaulted his apartment and the only safety for his daughter lies in Michael's house being protected by Angels, and she still almost got machine gunned by Nic's boy army.  Susan on the other hand was involved in a guerilla war with the Reds and was on an international terrorist watch list.  And just might have eaten the child if she got too worked up.  I'm failing to see what Harry's bitch is. And possibly had she known Michael she might have sent the baby to him UPS.

Harry gave Kim Delaney plutonium for a steak sandwich and a beer.  This was not good teaching on Harry's part.

@Dina
No I didn't give my kids a pass.  I merely spent a lot of effort making sure that they didn't kill themselves before they were competent to make that kind of decision for themselves.

[Dina]

Again, not kids. They are women.

Harry isn't a walking penis with no higher functions, and Susan isn't a ambitious slut.  There is no simpler way to say it.  In a modern sense neither Harry or Susan are fit parents.  Harry's antecedents are so paranoid that his own grandfather won't claim him outright. Zombie's assaulted his apartment and the only safety for his daughter lies in Michael's house being protected by Angels, and she still almost got machine gunned by Nic's boy army.  Susan on the other hand was involved in a guerilla war with the Reds and was on an international terrorist watch list.  And just might have eaten the child if she got too worked up.  I'm failing to see what Harry's bitch is. And possibly had she known Michael she might have sent the baby to him UPS.

And I am failing to see your point. I am not arguing with Harry but with you (and others).

[didymos]

  Susan on the other hand was involved in a guerilla war with the Reds and was on an international terrorist watch list.

Martin was on the watch list, not Susan.

[KurtinStGeorge]

The thing with Kim Delaney was that Harry warned her there was danger in what she was asking, but he didn't tell her why it was dangerous.  Harry brings this up in later books; keeping knowledge from people to protect them versus giving them complete knowledge so they can make their own informed decisions.  For whatever reasons, Kim Delaney wasn't honest with Harry.  Perhaps she made a promise to McFinn to keep their conversations  private.  That sounds reasonable to me, but we will never know for sure. 

One more thing to realize is that Kim was not an official apprentice.  It's made pretty clear that Harry helped Kim to work with her talents but she's not calling Harry her master or teacher.  In fact, Kim talks to Harry like they're almost equals; that Harry is just someone who knows more lore than she does.  Perhaps Harry's original error was not to formalize his teaching relationship with Kim from the very beginning.  In this way he could have given her a more complete picture of the supernatural world, but done so with specific rules and a structure to operate within.  In Harry's defense, he had never been part of a normal wizard/apprentice program and there's no indication that Ebenezer ever told Harry that one day he might have to teach someone else how to use their magic. 

On an unrelated subject, someone said this story was just fan service.  I agree with that opinion.  It didn't give us any new insights into either Ivy or Kincade.  The revelation of Ivy firing Kincade wasn't anything many of us couldn't guess would have happened.

[Dina]

I had not guessed it.

[morriswalters]

Again, not kids. They are women.

And I am failing to see your point. I am not arguing with Harry but with you (and others).

Hopefully we're arguing about a fictional literary character. And I've come to the conclusion that I have lost the point.

Martin was on the watch list, not Susan.

Yeah, but you know, birds of a feather.

[Mira]

The thing with Kim Delaney was that Harry warned her there was danger in what she was asking, but he didn't tell her why it was dangerous.  Harry brings this up in later books; keeping knowledge from people to protect them versus giving them complete knowledge so they can make their own informed decisions.  For whatever reasons, Kim Delaney wasn't honest with Harry.  Perhaps she made a promise to McFinn to keep their conversations  private.  That sounds reasonable to me, but we will never know for sure. 

  He couldn't spell it out because it was against the rules of the White Council to divulge the types of demons that kind of circle was supposed trap.  Let's not forget that the Doom had just been lifted from his head in the previous book.  As a result Harry may have felt compelled to walk the straight and narrow.  But even if he told her everything about it, it doesn't follow that the result wouldn't have been the same.   Harry also feared what the Council would do to her if they found her using that type of summoning circle, she'd lose her head..  He then tries to warn her in every possible way not to attempt it because if even if she were a full wizard if she messed up a lot of people could get hurt.   He asks her again not to mess with it because she lacks both training and experience to pull it off.  Then she falls back on she is the same age he is and he has no right to chose for her what is right and what is wrong.   As far as an informed decision,  Harry did give her what she needed for that, to pull off that kind of circle is dangerous and should only be attempted by a full experienced wizard.   Not sure what else he might have told her since she lied and refused to tell him exactly what she wanted the circle for.

One more thing to realize is that Kim was not an official apprentice.  It's made pretty clear that Harry helped Kim to work with her talents but she's not calling Harry her master or teacher.  In fact, Kim talks to Harry like they're almost equals; that Harry is just someone who knows more lore than she does.  Perhaps Harry's original error was not to formalize his teaching relationship with Kim from the very beginning.  In this way he could have given her a more complete picture of the supernatural world, but done so with specific rules and a structure to operate within.  In Harry's defense, he had never been part of a normal wizard/apprentice program and there's no indication that Ebenezer ever told Harry that one day he might have to teach someone else how to use their magic. 

Or as my brother in law would say, she knows just enough to be dumb..   I don't think they had a relationship even close to master and apprentice.  I reread the passage, they were friends, she knew he was a practicing wizard, she knew he was seeing some lean times, she charmed, lied and bribed him with a steak to get information...  Harry's fault is he let himself be charmed and bribed, he agreed to give the information before he knew what it was that he was giving.  When he realized it and how dangerous it was, he stopped, he couldn't tell her everything because it was against the rules of the Council, he did try to convey to her how dangerous it was for someone of her level of training to attempt.   However she clearly has no respect for the level of training it took for Harry to be what he is.   So everything he said fell on deaf ears..  If only she had told the truth, she might be alive today.. But as my old dad used to say, "if" is half of life..

Martin was on the watch list, not Susan.

Yes, but Susan ran with Martin, most likely he knew about little Maggie and had a good idea who the father was... Lets not forget he was playing both sides and was the one who betrayed Susan.

[Bad Alias]

As we're discussing Harry's moral responsibility, I think it would be useful for me to say where I think that responsibility comes from. One is responsible for the reasonably foreseeable consequences of his actions. Now we can all come up with wild consequences for mundane actions like choosing Restaurant A instead of Restaurant B, but just because we can foresee them doesn't mean they are reasonably foreseeable. A reasonably foreseeable consequence for such a choice is that I always eat things I shouldn't at the first restaurant but not the second, so I will get fat if I keep choosing the first one. It would not be reasonably foreseeable that going to the first restaurant would kick off a gang war because the gangs were having a meeting there and I wore the wrong color or something.

And, as I said, if I knew I am able to conceive and also have issues that could make me lost the control I would take pills, or have an intrauterine device or whatever could work in half-turned

The fear isn't that she is going to lose control and have unprotected sex. It's that she's going to lose control and eat someone. I don't think the specific circumstances that lead to Harry's apartment to become a sex dungeon were foreseeable.

The thing with Kim Delaney was that Harry warned her there was danger in what she was asking, but he didn't tell her why it was dangerous.

But didn't he? He said she couldn't handle the spell at her current level and he would advise against it even if she could handle it because failure could kill a lot of people.

@Morris: I can see saying Harry bears responsibility for not breaking up with Susan after Fool Moon. Correct me if I'm wrong, but my recollection is that Harry told everyone that he was in charge and they had to listen to him. Harry told her to stay with the van. She ignored him for a story. From that, Harry could have known that Susan would ignore danger she had no business facing to get a story. (That's probably where Bianca got the idea to deliver the invite in front of Susan). Other than that, I don't think there is any reason to say Harry has any responsibility for Susan's actions in Grave Peril.

Also, I don't think Susan was willing to sleep with Harry for a story. I think she was willing to sleep with Harry, period. I think she was also willing to take abuse their relationship.

As to Kim, Harry didn't give her the greater circle. She copied it from MacFinn's. I'm pretty sure she would have tried it no matter what Harry did. If Harry has any responsibility for that one, I'd say it was instructing her at all, though we don't know enough about her talents to know what the risks of giving her no instruction at all were.

I'd say the responsibility split as between the two of them maxes out at something like 5/95 for Harry/Susan and .01/99.99 for Harry/Kim.

[Dina]

The fear isn't that she is going to lose control and have unprotected sex. It's that she's going to lose control and eat someone. I don't think the specific circumstances that lead to Harry's apartment to become a sex dungeon were foreseeable.

Of course those circumstances were not foreseeable, but don't forget the rampire venom. It could be a plausible scenario for her to loose control, have sex with someone and then kill him or turn him. One thing does not imply that she cannot do the other first. And if she plans to stay chaste...even more reason to use birth control, as denying her biological urges would make her more vulnerable to a sudden snap (I mean, if she looses control, it is more difficult to stop herself if she has not relieved her urges in months)