Kincaid microfiction "Goodbye"

[Mira]

Of course Harry feels guilty about the fates of Kim & Susan - he knows they were avoidable in hindsight, had he imposed his will on both of them & abrogated theirs - in Harry’s POV this would make him no better than a lot of tyrants (especially given his background with Justin etc.).

But were they avoidable?  Harry wasn't that much older than Kim at the time, in fact most with talent were still apprentices themselves at the age Harry was.   Basically he lacked experience with people in general, young women in particular, also he had just got out from under the Doom.  So Kim took advantage of him,  she had talent so he didn't see the harm in teaching her some stuff, lacking the experience to realize this could get them both in trouble.   When she came to him for help with MacFinn's circle, she flat out lied to him about why and he had given away enough knowledge to her to get her killed before he realized that she was lying.  It was useless from that point on, apparently because they were nearly the same age Kim thought they were on par and she could handle what was needed to help MacFinn as easily as Harry could.  She also wanted to impress MacFinn, so no warnings from Harry would have stopped her, she was too ignorant about magic to believe Harry when he told her he wasn't going to give her enough information to do what she wanted or that she lacked the training to pull it off.   Refusing up front may have saved Kim, but she may have attempted something anyway.  MacFinn still would have gotten loose and Kim would have died, Harry still might have felt guilty about refusing the knowledge, but it would have saved him getting into crap with Murphy.

As far as Susan goes, he was in love with her, she had come to love him, but there is no getting
around it, she was also using him to further her career.  He should have realized it when she video taped the battle with MacFinn and then tried to publish it, she made no secret of her glee about getting the scoop.  Had he broken up with her over that, she might be alive and well today, but he was in love and found it hard to believe that someone like Susan was in love with him..  No, people don't change that much, for her it was all about getting the scoop no matter the price, so very predictable that she'd steal and forge the invitation to get the scoop, and she paid the price.

[Arjan]

Some thoughts:

One of the leitmotifs of the series is personal choice & living with the consequences of those actions. If Harry has to live with his, why shouldn’t Kim & Susan live with theirs?The arguments that say Harry is responsible for their deaths are like saying Michael is responsible for Harry picking up Lasciel’s Coin in DM because Harry was never warned specifically about Shadows....

Another one is how vanilla mortals react to the supernatural. A lot of them made bad decisions in the series based on wrong expectations based on not enough and unreliable information. Harry’s secrecy is one problem. Kim is very early in the series. If Harry had been a warden at that moment it would have been his duty to find out what was going on and he had enough warnings. As a normal wizard he should have called them but that was probably asking to much in his situation

Of course Harry feels guilty about the fates of Kim & Susan - he knows they were avoidable in hindsight, had he imposed his will on both of them & abrogated theirs - in Harry’s POV this would make him no better than a lot of tyrants (especially given his background with Justin etc.).

He should have been really graphic and detailed about what red court vampires are.

@Arjan
I think you’re really reaching there about Harry ‘abusing’ Kincaid in any sense of the word - Kincaid is not the type of person who puts up with abuse...

He used his nature against him to let him make a decision he should not have to make. This is not voluntary, a scion like Kincaid has no or limited free will.

It is not as bad as Molly maybe but it is similar. Harry was too self centered to consider Kincaid as a person even if he knew the consequences, that is abuse.

The main reason I imagine Harry used Kincaid instead of Lara for his suicide is likely because Kincaid is a paid assassin. He likely had no idea asking for this would create a rift between Ivy & Kincaid - I’m also sure that if Kincaid told Harry about Ivy being left completely alone if he took the assisted suicide contract, Harry would pick someone else.

Also the Archive has been known as the Oracle in the past - perhaps this is a calculated decision made by Ivy that will eventually benefit all.

@Avernite
C. Kincaid left without saying goodbye to Ivy because he doesn’t believe this is the end of their relationship

[Mira]

Another one is how vanilla mortals react to the supernatural. A lot of them made bad decisions in the series based on wrong expectations based on not enough and unreliable information. Harry’s secrecy is one problem. Kim is very early in the series. If Harry had been a warden at that moment it would have been his duty to find out what was going on and he had enough warnings. As a normal wizard he should have called them but that was probably asking to much in his situation

But he wasn't a warden, and very young to be a full wizard, by the time he realized she was lying he had revealed to much and couldn't put that back in the toothpaste tube. 

He should have been really graphic and detailed about what red court vampires are.

Do you really think that would have made any difference to Susan?  She survived both MacFinn and the frog demon, perhaps not giving Harry and luck enough credit for it..  She was over confident and greedy for the scoop.

He used his nature against him to let him make a decision he should not have to make. This is not voluntary, a scion like Kincaid has no or limited free will.

There is no evidence for that, in fact I believe Kincaid says in the opening lines that though he may not totally agree with Harry's reasoning, he understands and will do as requested.  Sounds like his decision to me, also though Ivy wants him to aim for the chest instead of the head, it appears also to be his decision.

It is not as bad as Molly maybe but it is similar. Harry was too self centered to consider Kincaid as a person even if he knew the consequences, that is abuse.

Both were adults, they made their decisions to aid him in his suicide, I'd agree that none of them thought it out fully, but neither were forced... If it was forced that would have been abuse, but it wasn't.

[morriswalters]

If Harry has to live with his, why shouldn’t Kim & Susan live with theirs?

They seem to be dead.   Which in real terms seems to mean that they did, in fact, pay for their mistakes.

One of the things about raising children, is that they don't yet have the experience to avoid things we consider dangerous.  Like walking in front of a car.  Our greater experience puts us in the position of needing to take responsibility for a child.  In the case of both Kim and Susan, that puts Harry in the position of the parent.  He has internalized the danger and understands it, they don't.  And being told isn't sufficient for children, or for Kim and Susan.

This is the point of his fetish for secrecy.  As adults he hasn't the authority over either Kim or Susan that we have over our children.  Lacking the ability to forbid behavior and the tools to enforce his edicts, Harry relies on discretion and secrecy.  So he either gave them too much, or too little information.  His failure, as such, is in underestimating what both Kim and Susan will do. And that failure is due to inexperience.

[Dina]

I agree with Harry lacking experience so understimating the two women was his fault. He did his best but he is not perfect. And he has been trained all his life in "knowledge is power" so secrecy is second nature to him. But I disagree with the comparison with children. That is patronizing with them and also give them a pass as if they were not to blame. But they are.

Arjan, I don't think Kinkaid lacks free will. Not the books or the microfiction gave me that idea.

[Arjan]

I agree with Harry lacking experience so understimating the two women was his fault. He did his best but he is not perfect. And he has been trained all his life in "knowledge is power" so secrecy is second nature to him. But I disagree with the comparison with children. That is patronizing with them and also give them a pass as if they were not to blame. But they are.

We are all children sometimes. Does not stop us from being irritated when patronised.

Arjan, I don't think Kinkaid lacks free will. Not the books or the microfiction gave me that idea.

He is a very powerfull scion and he already lived for a long time. He probably made his choices long ago.

[morriswalters]

It's an analogy, don't break it. It's about levels of power and the responsibility that you acquire as you achieve those levels.  Which is what Jim favorite quote states explicitly.  With great power comes great responsibility.  For Harry to not repeat his mistakes he must first acknowledge them.

I have no idea why people get so sideways abut this.  Harry is human and making moral errors as well as errors of judgement goes with the landscape. Periodically Jim spells it out. The explicit plot of Ghost Story is about realizing the errors that led to the seven words. And the ramifications of his decisions. 

But, if you devalue Susan, then you devalue  her sacrifice and Harry actions at Chichen Itza.  The whole thing about the baby and Susan, was that Harry never thought past that moment when they were finished.  Susan had to deal with it for nine months while on the run,  under stress and pressure.  Harry doesn't ever acknowledge that.  It's like, you hid my child you bitch.  And it wasn't that simple.  If Susan erred in her judgement she wasn't alone in that error.

[Dina]

HAD TO? It was her decision a) to have the baby in the first place b) not to tell Harry that she was pregnat c) hid her from Harry. She was a complete b*** about that and Harry has no reason to think about that because he supposed that Susan would have told him. Besides, he probably thought that Susan was sterile since her turning. I suspect Susan thought the same herself because if that is not the case it was completely irresponsible for her not to take pills. If I had issues that could led me to loose my control, I would definitely take pills (unless I was planning to have a child with someone, of course)

[Mira]

HAD TO? It was her decision a) to have the baby in the first place b) not to tell Harry that she was pregnat c) hid her from Harry. She was a complete b*** about that and Harry has no reason to think about that because he supposed that Susan would have told him. Besides, he probably thought that Susan was sterile since her turning. I suspect Susan thought the same herself because if that is not the case it was completely irresponsible for her not to take pills. If I had issues that could led me to loose my control, I would definitely take pills (unless I was planning to have a child with someone, of course)

HAD TO??  A BIG AMEN to that sister!!  It takes two to make a baby,so that responsibility was shared, but once she found out she was pregnant the rest of the choices beginning with not telling Harry are all on her.   I totally agree that she was a real b---- about it, blaming him for the really bad choices she made, the frosting on the cake was her claim that the baby would have been in more danger if she had told him..  Really???  And exactly where did not telling Harry get her?

But, if you devalue Susan, then you devalue  her sacrifice and Harry actions at Chichen Itza.  The whole thing about the baby and Susan, was that Harry never thought past that moment when they were finished.  Susan had to deal with it for nine months while on the run,  under stress and pressure.  Harry doesn't ever acknowledge that.  It's like, you hid my child you bitch.  And it wasn't that simple.  If

No? And she did hide his child from him, didn't she?  Actually if you cannot acknowledge that Susan is solely responsible for her plight then you really do devalue her.   She was an intelligent adult, she is the one who came on to Harry in the first place.   They were attacked by a frog demon on their first date,  "danger Wilma Robinson!"   She was there and saw the results of the run in between Harry and MacFinn, "more danger Wilma Robinson!"  Did she ever chose to end the relationship?  No...  How was it patronizing for Harry to tell her it was bad news to go to that party?  If a front line war vet tells you not to go skipping in a mine field least you step on one and blow up, how much more information do you really need to know it wasn't a good idea?  Just what information would you lack to know perhaps it wasn't a good thing to steal his running shoes and go for a skip around?  Since she was half turned herself and her work was dealing with killing vamps, that her baby was in real danger if it was traced to her or worse yet, Harry,  how hard was it to know that keeping it near and actually visiting it might not be a very good idea?  Yes, in the end she redeemed herself with her sacrifice, but lets not pretend she is largely responsible for her own mess, lets not diminish her by pretending she wasn't.

[morriswalters]

HAD TO? It was her decision a) to have the baby in the first place b) not to tell Harry that she was pregnat c) hid her from Harry. She was a complete b*** about that and Harry has no reason to think about that because he supposed that Susan would have told him. Besides, he probably thought that Susan was sterile since her turning. I suspect Susan thought the same herself because if that is not the case it was completely irresponsible for her not to take pills. If I had issues that could led me to loose my control, I would definitely take pills (unless I was planning to have a child with someone, of course)

Evidently I'm not selling my point.  So she's flawed. So what?  Her making mistakes has nothing to do with Harry and his moral responsibility. Susan or Kim may have been idiots, but it doesn't remove Harry's responsibility. 

And in terms of sex it takes two to dance.  If Susan didn't think about birth control than obviously neither did Harry.  Is there a universe where the woman is the only one who needs to think about these things.  Harry doesn't get a pass for assuming that Susan couldn't have children. You get up the next morning and talk if you fell off the precautions wagon.  You don't assume that the worst won't happen.

[Redepisg]

This morning I had a thought provoking post about the concepts of power and responsibility and the dangers of keeping vital information from people who need it, especially when they don't realize they need it, and how Harry has grown over the books from all the secrecy bs in the early books that would have eventually gotten Murphy, Molly, Butters, and all his other (mostly) vanilla friends killed if he had kept it up, but the forum seems to have eaten it.

Also, I'm not giving Kim and Susan a pass on anything.  Both of them made their decisions and had to deal with the consequences.  By the same token, Harry does not get a pass for withholding vital information from Kim and Susan.  They made their decisions based on what they thought they knew.  He doesn't get a pass for hiding the realities of the supernatural from Susan to the extent she thinks old horror movie tropes are enough to protect herself when she invites herself into a vampire's den.  He screwed up.  Repeatedly.  He goes on and on in the early books about how normal people need to stay away from the supernatural and how dangerous it is, and also about power and responsibility.  He has power, he has knowledge, by his own logic he had the responsibility to use it wisely and in these two cases in particular, failed to do so.  Kim and Susan were already involved with the supernatural.  Susan didn't understand the true extent of the danger, and Kim...the whole scene with Kim, in particular, struck me as someone who knows they need help trying the only way they can think of to get help from the one person who can help them, but who refuses to help almost by default.  Harry knew she was doing something above her skill level, basically told her she was an idiot for even trying, and apparently expected her to follow his orders and give it up on the spot.  Is it any wonder she lied about what she was really doing?  Early Harry has a lot of annoying complexes...Hero complex, Mysterious Wizard complex, I Am Always Right complex, I Am The Only One Who Can Do It complex...not to mention an overabundance of pride and even arrogance.  Frankly, while I enjoy the books, Harry, especially when looked at objectively early on, is a complete ass.  He gets better as the books go on, but he makes tons of mistakes on the way (and ends up paying for them too, for the most part).  Character development is a good thing. 

[Dina]

I sometimes feel like I am talking in Spanish, so some of you cannot understand me.

IKim was Harry's apprentice, so Harry telling no should have been enough. Susan stole and forged an invitation. That is not Harry's fault. He did not screw up, they did nothing

About Maggie's conception. I'll do another post later



 

[morriswalters]

You are quite understandable.

[Bad Alias]

The only thing Harry could have done to stop Kim was to physically stop her. A sleep spell like the one he did to Murphy is the only practical thing I can think of. Kidnapping or murder seem excessive (but would have resulted in less death than nothing). He could have followed her and keep an eye on her if he was willing to ignore a murder investigation. In hindsight, that would have been the right decision, but I can pick lottery numbers correctly 100% of the time using hindsight.

I still don't see how Harry could have impressed the danger on Susan.

He could have cut all social ties so as not to be in the position to be taken advantage of by people like Susan and Kim. Both abused Harry's friendship. Susan stole the invitation. Kim leveraged Harry's poverty to guilt him into maybe giving her too much information. She lied repeatedly to him. If she was honest with him, the case would have been half solved by chapter three. How could Harry have known that she was planning on holding a loup garou when he didn't know that was a thing that existed?

The only thing Harry could have done given his limited knowledge at the time was to start by getting an explanation of where she found the symbol and what she planned on doing with it before telling her anything. That might have worked. What happened was that she lied to him at least three times, ignored him, took his warnings as insults, and stormed off.

@morris: I don't see why you say Harry has any responsibility in these circumstances. If there was something he could have done, without the benefit of hindsight, then I'd say he has some responsibility.

[Mira]

I sometimes feel like I am talking in Spanish, so some of you cannot understand me.

IKim was Harry's apprentice, so Harry telling no should have been enough. Susan stole and forged an invitation. That is not Harry's fault. He did not screw up, they did nothing

About Maggie's conception. I'll do another post later

Totally agree,  actually Kim wasn't Harry's apprentice, she was just someone with talent and a friend that he gave instruction to from time to time.  Supposedly she was merely asking him an academic question, his mistake was trying to answer it as honestly as he could with in the rules of the White Council.  By the time he realized her question wasn't merely academic he had already  told her too much, but then he proceeded to tell her he wouldn't tell her more, why he couldn't and why it was so dangerous for someone with her level of training to even attempt it.  All she did was get pissed and stomp out,  not sure what he could have done, he got a bit side tracked himself shortly after that.

would have resulted in less death than nothing). He could have followed her and keep an eye on her if he was willing to ignore a murder investigation. In hindsight, that would have been the right decision, but I can pick lottery numbers correctly 100% of the time using hindsight.

I still don't see how Harry could have impressed the danger on Susan.

He could have cut all social ties so as not to be in the position to be taken advantage of by people like Susan and Kim. Both abused Harry's friendship. Susan stole the invitation. Kim leveraged Harry's poverty to guilt him into maybe giving her too much information. She lied repeatedly to him. If she was honest with him, the case would have been half solved by chapter three. How could Harry have known that she was planning on holding a loup garou when he didn't know that was a thing that existed?

The only thing Harry could have done given his limited knowledge at the time was to start by getting an explanation of where she found the symbol and what she planned on doing with it before telling her anything. That might have worked. What happened was that she lied to him at least three times, ignored him, took his warnings as insults, and stormed off.

Totally agree Bad Alias,  I'd only add that Susan had been using Harry repeatedly to get "scoops" to further her career, so no amount of impressing would have deterred her from trying to go to that party.  No, Harry isn't perfect and he has made plenty of mistakes, but what happened to both Susan and Kim is mostly on them.

Also, I'm not giving Kim and Susan a pass on anything.  Both of them made their decisions and had to deal with the consequences.  By the same token, Harry does not get a pass for withholding vital information from Kim and Susan.  They made their decisions based on what they thought they knew.  He doesn't get a pass for hiding the realities of the supernatural from Susan to the extent she thinks old horror movie tropes are enough to protect herself when she invites herself into a vampire's den.  He screwed up.  Repeatedly.  He goes on and on in the early books about how normal people need to stay away from the supernatural and how dangerous it is, and also about power and responsibility.  He has power, he has knowledge, by his own logic he had the responsibility to use it wisely and in these two cases in particular, failed to do so.  Kim and Susan were already involved with the supernatural.  Susan didn't understand the true extent of the danger, and Kim...the whole scene with Kim, in particular, struck me as someone who knows they need help trying the only way they can think of to get help from the one person who can help them, but who refuses to help almost by default.  Harry knew she was doing something above her skill level, basically told her she was an idiot for even trying, and apparently expected her to follow his orders and give it up on the spot.

Kim never tells what she wants the information for, even when asked outright.  He tells her that the type of creature this circle is meant to contain is way above her training level to do, then she lies to him.  Why?  Not because of his attitude towards her, but because either she wants the gig all to herself or MacFinn swore her to secrecy.   Her motives are complex to be sure, but lack of respect for magic and what it takes to be a full wizard is a huge part of it.  Why? Because her attitude was how hard can it be?  Why should only a full wizard be able to do this?  If she had been truthful with Harry in the first place, he most likely would have helped her and both her and MacFinn would still be alive.

Nor did Susan ever fully respect Harry, if she had she might have taken him at his word.. But she chose to close her ears to all of that, it was a scoop, she could read the headlines now, "My Night Out with the Vamps.."  It would make her career, Harry's refusal spoiled all of that... No, Harry could have given her a complete seminar on the dangers of the Red Court and she still would have stolen the invitation and forged it, Harry after all in her mind was just being over protective..  Both Kim and Susan were both too smart for their own good, like people who visit high cliffs above a beach or gorge and ignore the signs,  "Danger do not go past this point!"  Sometimes they get away with it, silly signs, the place is just trying to protect it's own ass and the insurance company demands the warning signs, it really isn't all that dangerous..  And sometimes we read about them in the newspaper, "so and so was killed because they ventured beyond the do not cross signs, the cliff gave way... Or worse yet, those that try to rescue these fools get hurt or killed in the process.  The warning signs are there for a reason, just because they don't spell out completely the extent of the danger doesn't mean they should be disobeyed.   Sometimes the warning signs do have an added explanation, like "edges are very unstable and can give away at any time..."  People still go beyond them anyway, sometimes they get away with it, and sometimes they don't and we read about it.  Kim and Susan are both the kind that venture beyond the warning signs, no amount of explanation would have stopped either of them.