Kincaid microfiction "Goodbye"

[Mira]

No.

Harry even tells us the difference in PG:
"That boy had noone to tell him the rules, to teach him"

Kim had. She just refused to listen.

Exactly,  what I never understood was why when Harry told her it was dangerous and beyond her training and experience she simply didn't come clean and tell him about MacFinn?  If she really knew Harry, she would have known he would do what ever he could to help him.   Or even if she didn't know that, just tell him the truth about what had happened?

Here is a tin hat theory, thanks morris for bringing up both the Korean kid and Molly in the same breath as Kim.. What do the three have in common?  All three had talent, that talent unless totally suppressed like eventually in the case of Charity, has to be used, it is a compulsion.   The Korean kid may not have started out bad, he may have done just little things, but as he practiced without guidance a degree of hubris begins to take root.   All adolescents suffer from arrogance to a certain degree, but in a kid with talent it is on steroids, evolving into the Korean kid using his power over others until eventually leading to warlockhood, people getting hurt or worse and the loss of his head.

Molly followed pretty much the same path, only she got kidnapped and hauled off to Arctus Tor, rescued then assigned to Harry under the Doom before she was totally gone.

Kim may have avoided some of the pitfalls that both the Korean kid and Molly fell into.  She may never have had that kind of talent to begin with, but she had enough.  So she did a lot of small stuff, Harry perhaps answering questions and offering some guidance, but it was never master/apprentice.
Then she ran into MacFinn and the huberis bug bit her..  For starters I doubt she knew what in the f--k a Loop was or what one could do..  In her arrogance and ignorance she thought this circle was like following a recipe in a cookbook..  Follow the directions, say the secret word and you've contained a monster.   She was taking her first step on the road to warlockhood, but it killed her before she could go very far.   

Harry was called a warlock because he killed Justin with magic, however Harry had spent the last six years of his life under the strict training and mentor-hood of a retired warden/wizard.  No, Justin didn't teach him about the Council or the Seven Laws of Magic but he did put some controls on his charge because he didn't want him to blow up in his face... Well, it happened anyway, but that is another story.

In the case of Kim, Harry lacked the experience to see the danger signs of where she was headed.
Had she been successful with MacFinn, I think eventually she would have ended up a warlock.

Talent + hubris + the arrogance of youth = warlock  if left unchecked by the mentorship of a strong experienced wizard.

The argument has been that Harry wasn't Kim's teacher. Clear this up for me if you would. Was he or not? 

No, he was not, not in any formal way, not in any informal either...  It is like having a medical doctor as a friend, one might ask him or her a medical question once in a while.  Usually they rather not answer, but sometimes they do depending on the question.   Yes, you are getting information from him or her, you might even learn something, but that doesn't make him or her your teacher.  That is the kind of relationship Harry and Kim had.   Anymore than I am being your teacher now, though I am answering your question. 

[morriswalters]

Then to speak specifically to Avernite's position, if he wasn't a teacher, then he taught her nothing. Teaching isn't going, oh, don't do that.  At least teaching as I understand it.

[didymos]

Just to add fuel to the fire, Harry considered her an apprentice:

A steak dinner was less than my usual rate, but she was pleasant company, and a sometime apprentice of mine.

Butcher, Jim. Fool Moon (The Dresden Files, Book 2) (p. 2). Penguin Publishing Group. Kindle Edition.

Obviously not full-time, but still...

[Dina]

I knew I have read that she was her apprentice! Obviously, nothing formal like Molly later, but there was some teacher-student relationship. Yes, that grey area is probably something to blame Harry. And I think he could have been a better teacher. But I still don't think he is responsible for Kim's death.

[Mira]

I knew I have read that she was her apprentice! Obviously, nothing formal like Molly later, but there was some teacher-student relationship. Yes, that grey area is probably something to blame Harry. And I think he could have been a better teacher. But I still don't think he is responsible for Kim's death.

  I don't either,  also just because he called her his sometime "apprentice"  doesn't mean she was, or she really considered him her "master."  Just consider her attitude when she didn't get her way. When Harry realizes that she wants to use this circle, he flat out tells her she doesn't have the training.  Her retort is

"You don't have the right to choose for me."

Then he answers..

"No," I told her.  "I've got the responsibility to help you make the right choice."

Finishing with

"Look, Kim," I said.  "Give it some time.  When you're older, when you've had more experience. . ."

Here is what says to me, she doesn't take him seriously never had..

"You aren't so much older than me," Kim said.

He goes on to say she was one of a number of youth that he helped coach though their awakening talent..  Sounds to me like a warlock prevention program..  But back to Kim,  perhaps Harry could have been a bit more tactful, but telling the truth doesn't always come out that way.  Harry may have called her his sometime apprentice, but from the sound of that argument, she never respected or considered him her master or as a teacher.  If she had, she might have heeded his warnings.

Harry feels guilty because he couldn't persuade her to make the right choice, that he feels is his responsibility.   But it isn't, he tried to help her choose, but she refused to be helped..  She never respected Harry or saw him as her teacher, if she had, she never would have lied to him.  She would have asked him to help her with MacFinn. 

[Avernite]

Then to speak specifically to Avernite's position, if he wasn't a teacher, then he taught her nothing. Teaching isn't going, oh, don't do that.  At least teaching as I understand it.

Reread the quote, please.

It says the Korean kid had noone to teach him. It doesn't say the Korean kid didn't (like to) get taught by the person who could've taught him.

[morriswalters]

Reread the quote, please.

It says the Korean kid had noone to teach him. It doesn't say the Korean kid didn't (like to) get taught by the person who could've taught him.

I don't know why what the Korean kid thought about anything is relevant.  Mira is arguing that Harry didn't teach Kim anything and you seem to be saying he was.  Harry either was or he wasn't.

I knew I have read that she was her apprentice! Obviously, nothing formal like Molly later, but there was some teacher-student relationship. Yes, that grey area is probably something to blame Harry. And I think he could have been a better teacher. But I still don't think he is responsible for Kim's death.

Harry took the responsibility, no one forced it on him.  He sold out for a steak dinner.  Look, Jim wrote this, not me.  He's explicit in the text about why Harry feels guilt.  Responsibility and obligation are things you take up.  You measure your behavior against your expectations of yourself.  For Harry, the question is, did I do enough?  The question is not, am I to blame, but can I use what I learned from my failure to improve how I will respond the next time.

[Avernite]

I don't know why what the Korean kid thought about anything is relevant.  Mira is arguing that Harry didn't teach Kim anything and you seem to be saying he was.  Harry either was or he wasn't.

No, I am saying Kim had someone who could teach her, unlike Korean kid.

Mira is arguing Kim didn't take the opportunity, but that is irrelevant to whether or not she had it.

For Korean kid, he died without a chance. Kim had a chance, she didn't take it, and died (and many with her).

[Mira]

No, I am saying Kim had someone who could teach her, unlike Korean kid.

Mira is arguing Kim didn't take the opportunity, but that is irrelevant to whether or not she had it.

For Korean kid, he died without a chance. Kim had a chance, she didn't take it, and died (and many with her).

  Yes,  Kim used Harry to gain information as she needed it, she also must of realized or feared that he wouldn't help her with the circle or with MacFinn because of the rules of the Council.  Otherwise why lie so flagrantly about it to him? 

The Korean kid never even had that much guidance.   Molly's plight also could have been avoided all together had Charity been up front about her talent and the possibility that one of her children could inherit it.   Instead of rejecting Harry from the get go out of ignorance and fear, with his help she could have been on the look out, Molly could have been guided before she rebelled and then do real damage and slid into warlockhood..  We don't know what Kim was thinking, I have a hard time thinking she had any close relationship with Harry at all, if she had, she would have known that once he understood MacFinn's plight he would have done all he could to help.   But this is where the hubris bit comes in,  she disregards Harry's warnings about her lack of training and experience level to pull this off let alone what this type of circle was usually used for..  She disregards the fact that though close to her in age, Harry is fully trained and more powerful than your average wizard of his age, she thinks she can do just as well.  In short she hasn't been listening all along, she thinks there is a short cut, follow the cook book recipe say the secret word and everything will be fine.. 

Simple things maybe, but any experienced cook knows depending on the dish, it isn't that simple, techniques have to be learned and practiced to be successful..   You can ask a master chief for a recipe, but unless you understand the techniques, the dish isn't going to come out right..  Lying to the chief about why you want the recipe isn't going to make it come out any better.

[morriswalters]

No, I am saying Kim had someone who could teach her, unlike Korean kid.

Mira is arguing Kim didn't take the opportunity, but that is irrelevant to whether or not she had it.

For Korean kid, he died without a chance. Kim had a chance, she didn't take it, and died (and many with her).

If he was in the role of teacher he was in the position to know how dangerous the information she wanted was.  Here the text is clear. He knew she was lying and gave it to her anyway for a steak sandwich.  Is that not what the text says?

[Avernite]

If he was in the role of teacher he was in the position to know how dangerous the information she wanted was.  Here the text is clear. He knew she was lying and gave it to her anyway for a steak sandwich.  Is that not what the text says?

Harry was in position to know, Harry knew, and Harry told Kim so.

Kim chose not to listen.

[Mira]

If he was in the role of teacher he was in the position to know how dangerous the information she wanted was.  Here the text is clear. He knew she was lying and gave it to her anyway for a steak sandwich.  Is that not what the text says?

  He didn't, he did not know what she was asking about, he agreed to help her first.  Perhaps he should have asked her first what information she wanted,  then accepted the steak.  But that still doesn't absolve her of lying to him in the first place.  Nor since he wasn't in her head, what reason did he have to think she'd lie to him?  Once he realized what she was asking and it wasn't just for "academic" reasons, he gave her no further information... On the contrary he strongly urged her to go no further with this as especially not attempt it since she didn't have the training or experience to pull it off.  The text is also very clear on that point.

Harry was in position to know, Harry knew, and Harry told Kim so.

Kim chose not to listen.

Exactly,  and I bet all along she was selective as to what she wanted to listen to.    It is like watching "Forged in Fire,"  where smiths forge knives and swords,  up front before the show begins, it says, "forging is dangerous and should only be attempted by those trained to do it."  If you have watched the show for some time like I have one gets a pretty good idea of how to forge a knife,  but I have no experience making one nor am I a smith...  I could attempt it, but I've been warned it is dangerous and without training I shouldn't try.. I can either chose to heed the warning or not at my own peril.  Harry warned her that she didn't have training nor experience to pull off what she wanted to do...  She could either heed his warning or not... She chose not, at her own peril.

[Dina]

(derailing thread even more) LOL! I've heard several forumites watch that show. There was even an Argentinian one! (he did not win). Also, there was a Latin American version.

[morriswalters]

Harry was in position to know, Harry knew, and Harry told Kim so.

Kim chose not to listen.

The bottom line was I was strapped for cash. I’d been eating ramen noodles and soup for too many weeks. The steaks Mac had prepared smelled like heaven, even from across the room. My belly protested again, growling its neolithic craving for charred meat.
But I couldn’t just go and eat the dinner without giving Kim the information she wanted. It’s not that I’ve never welshed on a deal, but I’ve never done it with anyone human—and definitely not with someone who looked up to me.

Now this is the text, and it speaks explicitly to the point. He gave her something that could kill her because he was hungry. If there is another way to read that I'm open to persuasion, but barring that, it is what it is.  This is some of Jim's weakest work.  It makes Harry look stupid.  This is a college student perspective, which is what he was when he wrote this.  If it was as dangerous as he states it, then he had no business giving it to her.  If he doesn't then she can't hurt herself with it and it doesn't matter if she listens or not.

[Arjan]

  I don't either,  also just because he called her his sometime "apprentice"  doesn't mean she was, or she really considered him her "master."  Just consider her attitude when she didn't get her way. When Harry realizes that she wants to use this circle, he flat out tells her she doesn't have the training.  Her retort is Then he answers..Finishing withHere is what says to me, she doesn't take him seriously never had..
He goes on to say she was one of a number of youth that he helped coach though their awakening talent..  Sounds to me like a warlock prevention program.. 

If that were the case Harry should have told her about the seven laws, the wardens and how many years he actually had training. It is like starting playing the violin in your twenties. Yes you can learn but the real virtuoso started when they were eight or younger.

Harry's secrecy is one reason she overestimated her own talents.

But back to Kim,  perhaps Harry could have been a bit more tactful, but telling the truth doesn't always come out that way.  Harry may have called her his sometime apprentice, but from the sound of that argument, she never respected or considered him her master or as a teacher.  If she had, she might have heeded his warnings.

That is because he never formalized it. You can not expect both parties to have the same expectations in a complicated relationship if you don't spell it out.

Harry feels guilty because he couldn't persuade her to make the right choice, that he feels is his responsibility.   But it isn't, he tried to help her choose, but she refused to be helped..  She never respected Harry or saw him as her teacher, if she had, she never would have lied to him.  She would have asked him to help her with MacFinn.

And get MacFinn killed by the council? We look in Harry's head but Kim did not.
To understand Kim's motivation we must not look at what we know about Harry, we must look at what Kim knew about Harry.