How to break the Lady's Mantles.

[Yuillegan]

Can the Winter Lady get pregnant from another Fae? If not, she could have sex.

Also, generally speaking what is Jim's weird insistence that women in his books don't have sex? Especially the serious love interests. Especially if people aren't married. Hell even the male characters barely get any. He often finds creative ways for people to not be able to have sex, often magical reasons. I get that some of that is to tease and titillate the reader. But often it borders on puritanical, the ideas that having sex is wrong or dirty and should only be for procreation.

Don't believe me? Here's some examples.
1) Molly is too young to have sex. And then she is old enough, but she is Harry's friends daughter. Yet teases both Harry and the reader the whole time. Harry even insists she can't have sex once she is an apprentice, and no masturbation. Whether she follows that is highly debatable, but who knows? Then she becomes Grey Lady and is too bitter. Then she becomes Winter Lady and her mantle prevents it. Wtf.

2) Murphy. 3 divorced husbands by age 20-something. Never mentioned to have any other lover or partner. On and off tension with Dresden. Never consummates. They share several kisses like some middle school kids. She has sex with Kincaid, but the relationship doesn't last past a holiday. Then nothing ever.

3) Susan. Before Harry seems to be single, but nothing mentioned. Then they finally start dating and they do presumably, boink. But then she becomes a half-vampire, and has one more time with Harry where a baby is conceived. And presumably nothing again.

4) Luccio, until her body swap, has been celibate for decades. By choice. And it takes a body swap and magical coercion/control (never explicitly stated) to have sex with Harry. Which stops the moment it is discovered.

5) Harry. Barely ever, over 20 something years. Constant brushes with it but he is practically a monk. Brief stint with Susan, a few years pass then a brief stint with Luccio, then some more years pass and nothing. Once with Mab (although part of that was in his head, and also not exactly sex either...). Constant set up with Murphy, only happened in a dream (although from the trailer looks like FINALLY that will happen...but what that signals is up to you...). Constant advances and set up with Molly, but will take her being Queen for that to happen.

6) Thomas is mostly repressed, because he hates himself. Only by Ghost Story do him and Justine FINALLY figure out a solution - it's kinda hilarious it took them years to figure out. Yes there is a whole bit where he becomes a monster and rapes and murders a bunch of women, which is conveniently skated over. But then that ends again and he is back to being a good guy.

Need I go on? I left out Lara, Mab etc because they are magical and monsters. They aren't really characters as much as villains. Anyone "good" gets none mostly.

[Bad Alias]

Molly has a lot of experience but never went all the way.

2) Murphy. 3 divorced husbands by age 20-something. Never mentioned to have any other lover or partner. On and off tension with Dresden. Never consummates. They share several kisses like some middle school kids. She has sex with Kincaid, but the relationship doesn't last past a holiday. Then nothing ever.

She was still "with" Kincaid in Love Hurts which is almost 6 years after Dead Beat. By her comments in Changes, I wouldn't be surprised if she got more than Harry knows. She was willing with Harry in Proven Guilty, but Harry wasn't.

Luccio had plenty of fun in her youth, but structured her later life to eliminate vulnerability.

Thomas was feeding in traditional Raith fashion from Turn Coat until the end of Changes. He stopped feeding for maybe then, maybe later, but resumed at the end of Ghost Story.

As for Doylist reasons, Jim never planned out a romantic interest arc for Harry. He's basically, but not quite, admitted that was a mistake.

Andy has been with three other characters. Marci, Kirby, and Butters. Which leads to note that Marci was with Andy and Kirby and Butters were with Andy. Georgia and Billy pretty clearly had the premaritals (I'm not certain, but I'd put money on it).

Harry's the center and I doubt any woman Harry knows well is going to come up to him and talk about all the dudes they're banging. It seems to me that a lot of characters are out there getting some. Others aren't. Harry's shy, weird, and isn't interested in anything casual. We're introduced to Harry as old fashioned. It's not surprising he has some old fashioned views.

Harry, Molly, Morgan, and Luccio are the only ones who have really long dry spells. I'm not certain about Ramirez. Butters and Murphy talk about long dry spells, but Butters' wasn't that long, IIRC/YMMV, and we don't really know how long Murphy's was. A lot of it probably has to do with the isolation that comes with being a supernatural not monster for the wizards.

Can the Winter Lady get pregnant from another Fae?

I'm fairly certain the answer is no.

[Yuillegan]

Then Molly should be able to have sex. Why hasn't she? Jim always finds a reason

I am more referring to "on screen" events, so Luccio's past is left out.

When you examine the story through the lens of sex, there is surprisingly little. 2 years out of maybe 10 years isn't a lot of boinking.

I agree, massive error on Jim's part but oh well. I still love the story.

Andy is a minor character, as was Marcy and almost all the Alphas. Billy and Georgia were formerly recurring roles that have become minor. And yes I would bet Billy and Georgia did have sex prior to marriage, as they were together some time before that. But it is strongly left out of the series.

They might not tell him details (especially considering how awkward Harry is about sex in general) but they probably would tell him about people they are dating. Generally a big part of people's lives. It's fine for Harry to be old fashioned, even awkward. But if I were profiling him, his sheer lack of both physical intimacy and long-term relationships make him very, very odd. Not bad, just odd. His lack of experience in some ways should probably affect him more than it does in the series, just based on people I know who have gone for long periods without relationships.

If you were profiling him as a murder suspect, you might say he is a loner, angry, violent, dangerous and unattached individual. From the outside, that's all true. Jim discussed it a few times in the earlier books, but since the pace picked up towards the last few books it seems like he hasn't had space to deal with that stuff, and it is forgotten.

Ramirez has been a virgin since we first met him, and while I would be surprised if he hasn't yet had sex (I mean there is a reason brothels are one of the most consistently found and oldest businesses) there isn't anything to say one way or another. His behaviour in Cold Case though makes me think that he still hasn't, which is somewhat expected considering Ramirez is a bit of a joke character and the aforementioned tendency of Jim. Sorry to be harsh, but it seems like Jim just made him ridiculous so that Harry looked better next to him.

[Arjan]

Then Molly should be able to have sex. Why hasn't she? Jim always finds a reason

The reason is magic. The reason is story. Molly is saddled with a mantle that is supposed to be virgin because the mantles nature, story is virgin. Just like the lady should be female. It is about how these powers express themselves in the real world. It is all about the stories told about them. Those stories are not based on modern morality because they are old and only change slowly.

Sex has all kind of meanings in different stories and it can have a lot of emotional value and in the Dresden verse emotions are linked to magical power.

So no the lady can not have sex because that is what she is. Men are supposed ton want her but never get her. Part of her is permanently just below the age of consent. A relation would make her not the lady anymore and that option is not available.

[Bad Alias]

I would get the Ladies being unable to have sex with other Sidhe if it was Maiden, Mother, Crone. If that's part of the mantles, then it makes sense. I'm pretty sure they were based on that archetype/trope, so I don't find it too out of place.

I am more referring to "on screen" events, so Luccio's past is left out.

I'm taking this to mean you're ruling out events that don't take place between Storm Front and Skin Games because there's only been two to five on screen sex scenes (unless we count the porno sets as on screen). But the "on screen" point just goes to my point that Harry is the focal point, and there are a host of reasons making it hard for him to get any; he's shy, doesn't look people in the eye, isn't up for hook-ups or even casual relationships, definitely isn't doing any of the online dating or dating apps, one of his first date answer's is "wizard," and then there's the complexity of that last bit being true. I'm kinda surprised he's gotten laid at all.

[Arjan]

I would get the Ladies being unable to have sex with other Sidhe if it was Maiden, Mother, Crone. If that's part of the mantles, then it makes sense. I'm pretty sure they were based on that archetype/trope, so I don't find it too out of place.
I'm taking this to mean you're ruling out events that don't take place between Storm Front and Skin Games because there's only been two to five on screen sex scenes (unless we count the porno sets as on screen). But the "on screen" point just goes to my point that Harry is the focal point, and there are a host of reasons making it hard for him to get any; he's shy, doesn't look people in the eye, isn't up for hook-ups or even casual relationships, definitely isn't doing any of the online dating or dating apps, one of his first date answer's is "wizard," and then there's the complexity of that last bit being true. I'm kinda surprised he's gotten laid at all.

He has power. That is attractive to some women.

[g33k]

Yeah, I think the "Maiden/Mother/Crone" trope is pretty clear.

The Ladies (Summer and Winter both) cannot have sex.  Their Mantles prevent it.  "Nubile Virgin" is the archetype.

But I would argue it's NOT a case of "just below the age of consent.". Rather the opposite -- just arrived, just AT the age of consent... and frozen there eternally.  This "Maiden" is not girlish, not too young.

But yeah, that's actually kind if a sign of Dresdenverse sexuality (or at least D'v fae sexuality) being kind of screwed up; the archtype is all kinds of fucked-up... a technically-not-fucked version of fucked-up, I guess.

[Bad Alias]

He has power. That is attractive to some women.

But only to women who know magic is real. To the rest, it's kooky. Also, poor isn't generally attractive to women.

All that being said, I've seen some attractive (not just physically) women with some absolute losers, so Dresden should be able to find somebody.

[123Chikadee]

@g33k: Yeah, pretty much. Plus the triple goddess idea is actually more recent then most think. IIRC, it's more of a neo-pagen thing.
@Arjan: All that stuff is true, but it's the Doylist, in-universe reasonings. It's just that Butcher wrote it that way and some aspects are a little icky to me.
@Yuillegan: Yeah, I just feel like a lot of those reasons are flimsy, even if we do need to have to know about the other characters sex lives for whatever reasons.
Honestly, I think a lot of that puritanical ideas are subconscious ones and he doesn't think too deeply about it. I'm not that wild about the ideas about sex that are put forward here, esp the idea of lust as a negative emotion.
And to be even more honest- and this is probably an unpopular opinion- but I found the Winter mantles problematic. There doesn't need to be all those rapetacular vibes for the knights, as rape isn't about sex. The 'sex' is just the means to an end so that the rapist can exert power in one of the most painful, angry way that they can. Even if the rapist believes that sex and rape go together, they're wrong. I'm getting tired of having rape and sex drive being connotative together within the series.
Plus, the idea that Molly can't have sex is weird b/c it just takes away more of her agency for titillation. It's inconsistent with what's been previously unwritten and also just isn't needed. I don't think posting links is allowed and even if it was, I wouldn't do it. But xserpx and davetheshady on tublr make much more salient points on this regarding Cold Case.
I would have thought, if keeping Winter numbers up for fighting Outsiders is needed, why don't they reproduce asexually, like some type of cell division that could be a cool bit of world building. Make the fae more alien as well.
But yeah.   

[Arjan]

But only to women who know magic is real. To the rest, it's kooky. Also, poor isn't generally attractive to women.

All that being said, I've seen some attractive (not just physically) women with some absolute losers, so Dresden should be able to find somebody.

But for that you have to go out and meet people. You have to do things with people to get to know them. Never socializing with the rest of the white council also means not meeting woman who will appreciate his talents.

[morriswalters]

Given Harry's past interactions with women and considering his enemies, who would want to sleep with him?  It would be like sleeping with a hand grenade with a tricky fuse.  Sleeping with Lara would make perfect sense. If he detonates he gets rid of a potential problem.

[Yuillegan]

@Yuillegan: Yeah, I just feel like a lot of those reasons are flimsy, even if we do need to have to know about the other characters sex lives for whatever reasons.
Honestly, I think a lot of that puritanical ideas are subconscious ones and he doesn't think too deeply about it. I'm not that wild about the ideas about sex that are put forward here, esp the idea of lust as a negative emotion.
And to be even more honest- and this is probably an unpopular opinion- but I found the Winter mantles problematic. There doesn't need to be all those rapetacular vibes for the knights, as rape isn't about sex. The 'sex' is just the means to an end so that the rapist can exert power in one of the most painful, angry way that they can. Even if the rapist believes that sex and rape go together, they're wrong. I'm getting tired of having rape and sex drive being connotative together within the series.
Plus, the idea that Molly can't have sex is weird b/c it just takes away more of her agency for titillation. It's inconsistent with what's been previously unwritten and also just isn't needed. I don't think posting links is allowed and even if it was, I wouldn't do it. But xserpx and davetheshady on tublr make much more salient points on this regarding Cold Case.
I would have thought, if keeping Winter numbers up for fighting Outsiders is needed, why don't they reproduce asexually, like some type of cell division that could be a cool bit of world building. Make the fae more alien as well.
But yeah.   

My reasons or Butcher's are flimsy?

Yeah the whole Winter mantle-rape urges, while perhaps in-keeping with the story universe (it's a bad world out there) is problematic from a message perspective. I understand why it has to be a part of Winter, and what mantles seem to hint at from a cosmic perspective. On the hand I think there should be some better discussion and development so that Harry isn't a rapebot. I agree that sex drive and rape probably shouldn't be tied together the way the series has done. However I also think that Jim is examining the grey (and rather misunderstood and taboo) world of sexual power dynamics, which is a complicated and difficult thing to do. I also do agree Molly being unable to have sex is just ridiculous and inconsistent. I feel we might be veering into Touchy Topics here, so if a mod (Griffyn612) wants to monitor/comment that might be helpful.

[123Chikadee]

Sorry, my bad. I meant Butcher's reasons are flimsy.
Yeah, having a mod for this would be helpful. I'll try to be as concise and respectful as I can.
I do enjoy exploring those grey areas your describing, but I'm just not confidant that Butcher is doing that w/ as much self-awareness as he could be, when you compare that to how he wrote 'Cold Case'.
I see too much rape in stories that are just there to service either plot or character development when it wasn't needed or another tragic thing could be put in place of the rape. It's almost like rape as narrative device becomes its own kind of fan service in a way. 
I dunno having rape being a fixture of Winter and then having Winter being the defenders against Outsiders feels too much like letting bad things slide for the 'greater good' and that's a slippery slope right there.
Buuut, I think I'm just getting to shouty, and if I'm being a too presumptive, preaching to the choir.
On another note, I'm wondering how the Mothers can abdicate, but only one that we know of, has done it. I mean, I'm just under the impression that the knights can get out of it but not the ladies or queens. Maybe a mother's power, since its not tied to the mortal world as much, allows her to quit?

[g33k]

... And to be even more honest- and this is probably an unpopular opinion- but I found the Winter mantles problematic. There doesn't need to be all those rapetacular vibes for the knights, as rape isn't about sex. The 'sex' is just the means to an end so that the rapist can exert power in one of the most painful, angry way that they can. Even if the rapist believes that sex and rape go together, they're wrong. I'm getting tired of having rape and sex drive being connotative together within the series ...

... On the hand I think there should be some better discussion and development so that Harry isn't a rapebot ...

Our only other WK is Slate, for whom sexual sadism & rape seemed to be a preference.  Harry repeatedly reports the WK mantle as primarily about violence/predation & territoriality.  In a sexual context... yeah, that's pretty much "rape."

It's beyond merely icky, but "rapey AF" has been a solid & consistent portrayal of the WK-Mantle.

But no, Harry is not a "rapebot."  Emphatically not!  Remember the scenes in early Cold Days with Sarissa -- Harry deduces that (a) Mab wants him to have her, and that (b) she "technically" has given consent.  Rapebot:proceed.

Instead, Harry pursues the issue far enough to be clear that Sarissa isn't willing in a "yes means yes" sense.

Recall that Molly was offering more-than-technical consent... if anything, she was holding herself back (from trying to seduce Harry), because she feared the Mantle was preventing HIM from giving genuine consent; all Harry had to do was stop saying "no!"

Sorry, Mab:  rapebot.

The whole WK-Mantle is, in many ways, an echo of Lasciel's Shadow -- urges to pursue dark-side impulses, reduced impulse-control, lapses in judgement, etc.  The Denarian was leaning more on the anger & violence buttons.  The Mantle seems to be violence and sex.  But the situations are highly akin.

[123Chikadee]

I know, its just that the rape-y stuff does not have to be in there, it really doesn't. Butcher could have gotten his points across just fine without it.
I don't think I go so far as to say Harry's a rapebot but I can see why it was said.
About Slate, yeah it's a bit chicken 'n egg as to how all that nastiness came about and I get why Harry is pushing against it so hard, so yeah, not a rapebot, but still.
Narrative-wise, no just no.