Author Topic: Harry the Anti-Christ, Harry the Merlin  (Read 6236 times)

Offline didymos

  • Conversationalist
  • **
  • Posts: 142
    • View Profile
Re: Harry the Anti-Christ, Harry the Merlin
« Reply #15 on: February 23, 2020, 02:52:06 AM »
Yeah.  Jim seems to have a misconception, common to men.  That is, if you are having great vampire sex without the benefit of birth control that a baby is an accident. Your genitals know what evolution created them for, and they are tireless and have a great work ethic.

In any case, the point is Maggie didn't have Thomas on purpose.

Offline morriswalters

  • Posty McPostington
  • ***
  • Posts: 2547
    • View Profile
Re: Harry the Anti-Christ, Harry the Merlin
« Reply #16 on: February 23, 2020, 04:14:16 AM »
Well more seriously, there is what Maggie intended versus what Raith did.  Jim does this so much that you can't tell when he does it. Again using his favorite fantasy trope, Obi Wan when confronted by Luke about Vader, tells Luke that what he said was true, in a way.  Now I won't say Jim is prevaricating, but he's a little shy about being straightforward. Given that, until shown otherwise, I assume he shading us somehow.

In any case, in Grave  Peril Margaret refers to what Raith had done to all three of them, herself and her two sons. While I don't think that means that Raith is  Harry's daddy, I don't see a way of escaping the fact that Raith was up to something  that involved the three of them.  And Raith never laid eyes on Harry until they meet the first time in Chicago.  Draw your own conclusions.


Offline didymos

  • Conversationalist
  • **
  • Posts: 142
    • View Profile
Re: Harry the Anti-Christ, Harry the Merlin
« Reply #17 on: February 23, 2020, 11:09:55 AM »
I don't think Raith is Harry's father:
Quote
“God knows,” Thomas said. “All I know is that there was some sort of business between them. It developed into something else. Father was trying to snare her permanently, but she wound up being too strong for him to completely enthrall. She escaped him when I was about five. From what I’ve been able to learn, she met your father the next year when she was on the run.

Butcher, Jim. Blood Rites (The Dresden Files, Book 6) (p. 196). Penguin Publishing Group. Kindle Edition.

The implication is that she was on the run for a good while before meeting Malcolm.  Also this, later in the book:
Quote
“She did,” Ebenezar confirmed. “I don’t know why, but for some reason she turned away from her previous associates—including Justin DuMorne. After that, nowhere was safe for her. She ran from her former allies and from the Wardens for perhaps two years. And she ran from me. I had my orders regarding her as well.”
 I stared at him in pained fascination. “What happened?”
“She met your father. A man. A mortal, without powers, without influence, without resources. But a man with a good soul, like few I have ever seen. I believe that she fell in love with him. But on the night you were born, one of her former allies found her and exacted his vengeance for her desertion.”

Butcher, Jim. Blood Rites (The Dresden Files, Book 6) (pp. 349-350). Penguin Publishing Group. Kindle Edition.

She was on the run a total of about two years before dying.  So she got pregnant at roughly two years minus about 36 weeks after she left Raith.

Offline morriswalters

  • Posty McPostington
  • ***
  • Posts: 2547
    • View Profile
Re: Harry the Anti-Christ, Harry the Merlin
« Reply #18 on: February 23, 2020, 01:08:41 PM »
Yeah, I have this whole passage bookmarked in my copy that I use for research. This passage speaks more directly to your point.
Quote
"As are you, Harry. So tall, like your father. And I think you have his heart as well."
But the text implies that Harry was planned before Margaret bolted.  She planted a working that could only be triggered by a soul gaze in Thomas before she left.

Offline Yuillegan

  • White Council
  • Posty McPostington
  • *****
  • Posts: 1384
  • Forum Moderator
    • View Profile
Re: Harry the Anti-Christ, Harry the Merlin
« Reply #19 on: February 23, 2020, 11:50:52 PM »
The easiest way of explaining why Thomas isn't a Starborn is that they shot at the target and missed.  Having said that it fails to account for Elaine if she was Starborn as well.
It is certainly possible. Yeah Elaine is a real oddity to me. She doesn't neatly fit in at all. Which absolutely makes me much more interested. I would really like to find out more. She screws up many a theory.

It's unsafe to assume otherwise.  Somebody knew a lot.  They knew where Harry was. And Harry didn't have a fixed address. They tagged after him for six years. And they had a plan for losing surveillance after they murdered Malcolm. And a way to shield him from prying eyes.  Lash doesn't say that parentage is important.   But they couldn't control the circumstances of Harry's birth. The when, where and how unless it was set up before she ran. But if parentage was important and Malcolm was the father then Margaret knew who he was before she ran.  He wasn't random. Is there a hole in that?

And I have to ask, doesn't anyone ever find it funny that Harry does so much rat running with senior level angels.  Not to mention dream mail from dad.  He gets a lot of attention for a non angel.

Unsafe eh? Is there something I should know about? Is it dangerous to get WAGs wrong? Well probably, at least on this forum... :P

Yeah it is a curious thing the whole Malcolm thing. I agree that it does appear that she picked him out, whether he was the biological father or not. I do imagine she did fall in love with him. From what we know, he seems like a truly good man. Perhaps that is reason enough. She knew she might have a monster for a kid, and picked the best soul to raise him right that she could. A really interesting study about psychopaths a few years ago postulated that nurture had a lot to do with how psychopaths behaved as adults. Those that received love, particularly from their mothers, were less likely to go around murdering folks and more likely to become successful (if perhaps brutal) people.

But perhaps Michael had special, magical properties that she needed. I find this less likely, but still possible. The quote you use is the only one I recall ever mentioning Malcolm's height. Which could explain away a lot of my theory (so obviously I must dislike it, when the facts fail to fit your theory they must be discarded!)

But as you say, there is quite a bit of circumstantial evidence that suggests that Margaret knew she was going to have Harry. Perhaps she even predicted it (with her Future Sight). She did plan things out quite far. She knew to leave her jewel with Leah. She planted the vision within Harry and Thomas in order to convince each other they were siblings, so they would protect each other. Who knows what else she planned?

Yeah I know what you mean. In fact, I am surprised Harry isn't more weirded out by how much interaction he has with Angels. Especially Uriel. Almost like Harry will be involved in big, multiverse affecting events. Which all goes back to my frustration that Harry really should question his life more, particularly the weirder stuff. Like how in a decade he hasn't bothered to find out more about his mother, or a what a starborn is etc. I feel he would be less out of his depth if he took the time to just figure out some of the bigger questions in his own life. Not to mention some of the big universal ones, like where do gods come from or why do the Outsiders want to destroy reality or who was the Merlin? Maybe pick up those damn diaries that Eb has!
Hi, I'm a moderator. We're here to help. Please remain calm. Don't go outdoors.

Offline morriswalters

  • Posty McPostington
  • ***
  • Posts: 2547
    • View Profile
Re: Harry the Anti-Christ, Harry the Merlin
« Reply #20 on: February 23, 2020, 11:59:51 PM »
Quote
Unsafe eh? Is there something I should know about? Is it dangerous to get WAGs wrong? Well probably, at least on this forum...
Absolutely meaningless rhetorical flourish.  I like it anyway.

Offline Snark Knight

  • Posty McPostington
  • ***
  • Posts: 3933
    • View Profile
Re: Harry the Anti-Christ, Harry the Merlin
« Reply #21 on: February 24, 2020, 02:56:09 AM »
She was on the run a total of about two years before dying.  So she got pregnant at roughly two years minus about 36 weeks after she left Raith.

It's highly likely that she would have been using the Ways extensively to evade those who were hunting her. She could easily have been pregnant for two earth-years with the effects of time dilation.

Offline Bad Alias

  • Posty McPostington
  • ***
  • Posts: 2208
    • View Profile
Re: Harry the Anti-Christ, Harry the Merlin
« Reply #22 on: February 25, 2020, 04:24:22 PM »
But none of that explains why Thomas has very little magical ability and Harry does, apart from a writing reason. My take is Jim when creating Thomas didn't need another Wizard, and his vampire abilities were enough for the story, but he added a little bit of magic later when he needed it in the Back Up short story.
He only went to a tech school for magic instead of pursuing multiple MIT level doctorates. That's the analogy Thomas uses. I believe Jim has said something about Thomas having the requisite talent, but he hasn't nurtured it. Also, a White Court practitioner isn't going to be Council level because of the Hunger, but would also be able to do "weird stuff" with the Hunger. I'm only like 65% certain I'm remembering the WoJ properly. Also what Morris said.

@Morris: Rat running?

Well more seriously, there is what Maggie intended versus what Raith did.  Jim does this so much that you can't tell when he does it. Again using his favorite fantasy trope, Obi Wan when confronted by Luke about Vader, tells Luke that what he said was true, in a way.  Now I won't say Jim is prevaricating, but he's a little shy about being straightforward. Given that, until shown otherwise, I assume he shading us somehow.

In any case, in Grave  Peril[Blood Rites Margaret refers to what Raith had done to all three of them, herself and her two sons. While I don't think that means that Raith is  Harry's daddy, I don't see a way of escaping the fact that Raith was up to something  that involved the three of them.  And Raith never laid eyes on Harry until they meet the first time in Chicago.  Draw your own conclusions.
I tend to think murdering his mother so that he is eventually raised by DuMorne unaware of the White Council and the Laws is enough. There may have been more, but I would be surprised by that.

Yeah, I have this whole passage bookmarked in my copy that I use for research. This passage speaks more directly to your point.But the text implies that Harry was planned before Margaret bolted.  She planted a working that could only be triggered by a soul gaze in Thomas before she left.
I was looking for that quote and couldn't find it. I knew there was a quote from Soulgaze Maggie either confirming Malcolm's status or close enough for me.

Absolutely meaningless rhetorical flourish.  I like it anyway.
As the kids say, lol.

Yeah I know what you mean. In fact, I am surprised Harry isn't more weirded out by how much interaction he has with Angels. Especially Uriel. Almost like Harry will be involved in big, multiverse affecting events. Which all goes back to my frustration that Harry really should question his life more, particularly the weirder stuff. Like how in a decade he hasn't bothered to find out more about his mother, or a what a starborn is etc. I feel he would be less out of his depth if he took the time to just figure out some of the bigger questions in his own life. Not to mention some of the big universal ones, like where do gods come from or why do the Outsiders want to destroy reality or who was the Merlin? Maybe pick up those damn diaries that Eb has!
Isn't it only high level players who have revealed to Harry that they know anything about his starborn/what he was meant for status? Some of whom have acted like he wasn't even there and came to the decision to not inform about things very likely important to him and the survival of the world. I have a feeling he's asked Bob and Bob wasn't helpful.

And for the record, I'm pretty sure Malcolm is Harry's bio-dad, but it's a fun theory that it could have been Raith and Harry fits the Merlin's origin legends.

Offline morriswalters

  • Posty McPostington
  • ***
  • Posts: 2547
    • View Profile
Re: Harry the Anti-Christ, Harry the Merlin
« Reply #23 on: February 25, 2020, 06:42:53 PM »
@Bad Alias
Rat Running

Offline Yuillegan

  • White Council
  • Posty McPostington
  • *****
  • Posts: 1384
  • Forum Moderator
    • View Profile
Re: Harry the Anti-Christ, Harry the Merlin
« Reply #24 on: February 25, 2020, 11:48:30 PM »
BA - I honestly found that comparison a weird choice. Harry is an academic in a sense, he certainly has been a student for a long time. But the sheer time it takes to complete one doctorate, let alone several would be prohibitive to Harry's time. He also had school at the time, whilst I respect his training it always seemed more like learning instruments or several martial arts.

But it doesn't explain why Harry is a top 40 Wizard in strength despite being so young (this was established in the early books) and Thomas has next to no magical muscle. At the very least, I would expect have Lord Raith and Maggie as parents should have made him a stronger WCV. I know Thomas kept his head down so his father didn't kill him (as he did to his previous sons) but still.

I never understood that WOJ about how the Hunger interferes with WCV being fairly strong Wizards. Red Court and Black Court don't seem to have any such issues. They almost have next to none and rely exclusively on their Hunger tricks, I don't know what "weirder" stuff they could do but Lord Raith had quite a few back in the day. I would like to see Thomas get a proper power up myself. At the very least, some more magic.

I have no idea why it is only the high level players, but even Chauncy seemed to know a bit. I just think he should pull his head out of the sand and start asking the big questions - and before anyone says it: I know it's all to do with when Jim chooses to reveal these things in a very long series. But for me it is starting to break immersion.

Cheers, I thought it was a fun theory to. I could well be wrong. But that's the fun of these forums right?

Morris: It was a fine phrase, just bantering with you a little.  8)
Hi, I'm a moderator. We're here to help. Please remain calm. Don't go outdoors.

Offline Bad Alias

  • Posty McPostington
  • ***
  • Posts: 2208
    • View Profile
Re: Harry the Anti-Christ, Harry the Merlin
« Reply #25 on: February 26, 2020, 02:39:15 AM »
I to think it's a bad analogy. I think a professional who constantly hones his skills vs a hobbyist who piddles in his workshop or took a class 15 years ago in high school or something. But my point is that we don't know how powerful Thomas's magic is because he doesn't have the skill to demonstrate his raw power. He probably doesn't even have the skill to do evocation.

I have no idea why it is only the high level players, but even Chauncy seemed to know a bit.
I think a lot of mid level players know/knew a lot, but they never said anything in front of Harry. A prime example being Harry. High level players said stuff in front of, and occasionally to, Harry.

Offline Yuillegan

  • White Council
  • Posty McPostington
  • *****
  • Posts: 1384
  • Forum Moderator
    • View Profile
Re: Harry the Anti-Christ, Harry the Merlin
« Reply #26 on: February 26, 2020, 07:29:58 AM »
Very true - but I think Thomas hasn't developed much recently and at less he gets a power up he will die, and he will become a stagnated character if he doesn't do some more character development.

What is Harry a prime example of? I don't follow.
Hi, I'm a moderator. We're here to help. Please remain calm. Don't go outdoors.

Offline Bad Alias

  • Posty McPostington
  • ***
  • Posts: 2208
    • View Profile
Re: Harry the Anti-Christ, Harry the Merlin
« Reply #27 on: February 26, 2020, 02:25:38 PM »
I meant to say Morgan, and he would be a prime example of a mid level player knowing way more than we/Harry expected.