Morgan Micro Fiction

[Bad Alias]

@Morris: I would note that Margaret was headed to Hell, but didn't make it there. Something happened to take her off that path. Eb says the thing that changed her was meeting Malcolm.

[Mira]

Your giving Eb access to information that Eb shouldn't have had.  While my read of the text indicates that Eb was aware of Malcolm and therefore Harry  prior to Malcolm's death, there isn't anything to indicate that he ever spoke to Maggie before she died. If that is true he wouldn't have any idea of why she ran.

Eb was more than aware of Malcolm, I believe he soul gazed him.
Page 199 Blood Rites

"She met your father.  A man.  A mortal, without powers, without influence, without resources. But a man with a good soul, like few I've ever seen."

From that soul gaze Eb would have learned a lot.  Another thought came to me, what if Lord Raith  killed Malcolm as well?  Just because he had taken Margaret away from him.

[morriswalters]

@Morris: I would note that Margaret was headed to Hell, but didn't make it there. Something happened to take her off that path. Eb says the thing that changed her was meeting Malcolm.

Here is the full text.

He was silent for a minute. Then two. And a while later he said, "The Council knew that you were the son of Margaret LeFay. They knew that she was one of the wizards who had turned the Council's own laws against it. She was guilty of violating the First Law, among others, and she had… unsavory associations with various entities of dubious reputation. The Wardens were under orders to arrest her on sight. She'd have been tried and executed in moments when she was brought before the Council."
"I was told she died in childbirth," I said.
"She did," Ebenezar confirmed. "I don't know why, but for some reason she turned away from her previous associates—including Justin DuMorne. After that, nowhere was safe for her. She ran from her former allies and from the Wardens for perhaps two years. And she ran from me. I had my orders regarding her as well."
I stared at him in pained fascination. "What happened?"
"She met your father. A man. A mortal, without powers, without influence, without resources. But a man with a good soul, like few I have ever seen. I believe that she fell in love with him. But on the night you were born, one of her former allies found her and exacted his vengeance for her desertion."

[Bad Alias]

Chauncy provides us with this:
1. Margaret was going to Hell.
2. ?
3. Margaret didn't go to Hell.

Eb provides us with this:
1. Margaret was a bad guy, hanging out with bad guys, doing bad guy things.
2. ?
3. Margaret stopped hanging out with bad guys and doing bad guy things with them.
4. She met Malcolm, and (Eb assumes) fell in love with him.

I think these things are tightly related.

[g33k]

I explicitly presume that Chauncy is a liar.

Unless there's a magical bargain in place, so his info MUST be good (in order for him to get the thing he wants in return), Chauncy will mix truth and lies -- MOSTLY lies -- such that nothing he says can be treated as "factual."

It's just part of what Chauncy is.

[morriswalters]

Chauncy doesn't say much. But what he says agrees with Eb. And there is a truism about lies, never tell a lie when the truth would serve you better.  But leaving the Circle or Black Council or whatever wouldn't have gotten her a get out of hell card. And we know that Morgan saw her in the last nine months she was alive. What was her act of redemption?

[Bad Alias]

Choosing redemption? I don't know what Jim believes these days, but he grew up Christian. The books often emphasize the importance of choice. The Knights try to save the Denarians. If the older ones give up their coins, they can't have much more than a few years left. The really old ones like Tessa and Nick would probably have less than a few years.

I think simply choosing to change paths and taking the first steps could be enough. Leaving the circle may have been enough. "I firmly intend, with your help, to do penance, to sin no more, and to avoid whatever leads me to sin" would have probably been enough.

[Mira]

I explicitly presume that Chauncy is a liar.

Unless there's a magical bargain in place, so his info MUST be good (in order for him to get the thing he wants in return), Chauncy will mix truth and lies -- MOSTLY lies -- such that nothing he says can be treated as "factual."

It's just part of what Chauncy is.

Of course Chauncy is a liar, he was also trying very hard to trick or goad Harry into giving him more of his name so Harry would be in his clutches.   However I think he was also telling the truth that Margaret's acts were getting her a nice place in Hell.  But remember what Uriel said to Harry when he became Winter Knight, motives are important, paraphrasing, " that he could never stray so far from the path that he couldn't return."   I think that is how Margaret lived her life, yes, she wandered so far off the path that her soul was in real danger, but her motives were not totally evil. When she met Malcolm she was able to redeem herself by her love for him and the conception of Harry.

[morriswalters]

I'm an old school kinda guy.  So if Jim makes her redemptive arc, "Go and sin no more." I would find that to be unsatisfactory.  Not that he asks me.  He's writes like a Catholic, irrespective of his faith, if any.  And they have purgatory. I personally would want a quid pro quo.  And I'm looking at you Morgan.

[Bad Alias]

If it makes you feel better, she died because she turned away from her previous associates. As you quoted "[a]fter that, nowhere was safe for her." It's not like she didn't have any penance.

Morgan died to save others. He devoted his life to risking that.

The only way anyone is ever going to get a perfect balance is in some sort of Purgatory where they somehow eliminate all the red from their ledger. (Literally, Purgatory would be a place of cleansing, not necessarily through punishment).

[Dina]

about the timeline that bothers @morriswalters so much. What if Margaret lived in the Nevernever part of that time, and so time passed different from her? It is even possible that part of her pregnancy was in the nevernever. That would probably have given Harry a significant magical boost.

[Mira]

about the timeline that bothers @morriswalters so much. What if Margaret lived in the Nevernever part of that time, and so time passed different from her? It is even possible that part of her pregnancy was in the nevernever. That would probably have given Harry a significant magical boost.

That is very possible..  However we have the huge example of the Thief on the Cross.  This was a real bad guy who on the Cross stood up for Jesus on the Cross to the other dying thief, and Jesus told him that night, "he'd be with him in Paradise."  So one act can redeem.

[Arjan]

That is very possible..  However we have the huge example of the Thief on the Cross.  This was a real bad guy who on the Cross stood up for Jesus on the Cross to the other dying thief, and Jesus told him that night, "he'd be with him in Paradise."  So one act can redeem.

I do not think the mere fact that the romans crucified someone proves that he was a bad man.

But according to pauline christianity it is not good deeds that save you. It is the acceptance of christs sacrifice on the cross wich the thief did.

But that is not how Jim's universe works. The human soul is shaped by the choices a human makes during life and in some cases slightly beyond dead until what is next.

The shape of that soul is what decides what happens to it next. Margaret made a some very soul changing choices.

She did not go to hell because she became the person that should not go to hell. By making real choices to that result.

[morriswalters]

I'm worried about the narrative. That you can be a mass murderer and get a get out of hell free card in real life from the church by seeking forgiveness on your death bed really doesn't concern me.  What concerns me with her story is why should I care that Maggie died?

about the timeline that bothers @morriswalters so much. What if Margaret lived in the Nevernever part of that time, and so time passed different from her? It is even possible that part of her pregnancy was in the nevernever. That would probably have given Harry a significant magical boost.

Considering that Malcolm is said to be a vanilla mortal, how would that work in terms of a hookup?

[Avernite]

Considering that Malcolm is said to be a vanilla mortal, how would that work in terms of a hookup?

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