Harry's use of Black Magic

[morriswalters]

You're preaching to the choir. Murphy would have shot Mab if she thought Mab was going to shoot Harry.  She's highly motivated in that respect.

[Arjan]

You're preaching to the choir. Murphy would have shot Mab if she thought Mab was going to shoot Harry.  She's highly motivated in that respect.

I know but for some reason people think Mab was moving her hand literally.

[noblehunter]

One of the biggest reasons to be afraid of Mab is that she doesn't need to possess you in order to control your movements. Murphy was an agent of Mab's will but there was no magic involved.

ETA: Regarding Tolkien's cosmology, death is not when the corporeal form ceases to sustain life but when the spirit passes beyond the boundaries of the world. Elf spirits go hang out in an actual physical space in the world and can re-take physical form (I'm not sure if they do as a regular thing or if it's just limited to a few special cases). Human spirits are only around for a short time after death then they go somewhere else.

[Mira]

One of the biggest reasons to be afraid of Mab is that she doesn't need to possess you in order to control your movements. Murphy was an agent of Mab's will but there was no magic involved.

ETA: Regarding Tolkien's cosmology, death is not when the corporeal form ceases to sustain life but when the spirit passes beyond the boundaries of the world. Elf spirits go hang out in an actual physical space in the world and can re-take physical form (I'm not sure if they do as a regular thing or if it's just limited to a few special cases). Human spirits are only around for a short time after death then they go somewhere else.

It gets tricky in Tolkien, according to Tolkien Gateway

     

The Elves did not suffer death from old age or disease, as do Men, but they could be slain by injuries and their own grief. Unlike the Valar, experiencing death (which is the separation of their fëa and hröa) violates the Elves' nature, since they were made to live as incarnate beings. The Elves were not free from change and aging, either, but they aged in a different sense than Men: the Elves became ever more weary of the world and burdened by its sorrows, and lived more in the past. In Middle-earth, their bodies would slowly be consumed by their spirits until they were little more than wraiths, in the Unseen. Yet, the Elves could escape this fate by traveling west to Aman.

The Elves are also bound to Arda and cannot escape it as long as it lasts, and can thus be reincarnated after their hröa is destroyed. When their fëa and hröa are separated, the fëa could travel to the Halls of Mandos. There they can either stay or be reincarnated with a new body identical to the previous hröa, after being released by Námo, and judged by Manwe and Varda to be absolved of any sins or regrets from their previous life. Once they were reincarnated they generally remain in Aman. There are only two Elves known to have left Aman after reincarnation, Glorfindel who was sent back to Middle-earth and Lúthien Tinúviel who was also sent back to Middle-earth as a mortal.

However, this same fact of their nature means that their fate after Arda's end is unknown; it seems that the Elves must die when Arda ends. They must rely on estel to give them hope that this will not be the case. For this reason, the envy often felt by mortals of the Elves' lifespans comes from ignorance of the nature of these lifespans.

Because the Elves can reincarnate, and because their fate after Arda's end is undiscernable, the life of the Elves is "serial longevity", not "immortality".

Murphy knew that Harry had called Mab to help against Maever, so it is unlikely that she'd think she was going to kill Harry.

I agree, Murphy was an angent of Mab's will..  It is significant that afterward Harry asked Mab twice about her killing of Maeve.  The first time on the same page he merely asked if it was hard for her? He adds that she was her daughter and even with all that was at stake she had held back.. Then finally at the bottom of the page he is direct, "Was it hard for you to kill Maeve?"  Mab sounds vulnerable, her answer is

"I was mortal once, you know," she said, very quietly..

From the above, yes, however you want to slice it, Mab killed her daughter, and yes, it was hard because she still possesses a trace of human feeling..

[Yuillegan]

Mira - pretty much what I was getting at about Tolkien Elven Immortality versus Dresden Files Immortality. Very different concepts, based on a real world belief that existed for much of history (and still does, depending on who you talk to). But both Butcher and Tolkien have transformed that into their own interpretations, which are quite different both from the source and from each other's works (although there are shades of Tolkien in Butcher's works). 

As to the Mab literally, personally, physically killing Maeve debate...clearly this has to be an agree to disagree. You have your interpretation of the text, others have a different one. You are welcome to believe your interpretation of course. But I wouldn't expect anyone to agree with you on it, either. You have made your case but I think largely it has been rejected by the rest. You could be right and may well one day be vindicated, but for now let it rest. Your argument is not yet a fact - like a lot of what's in these forums we are all just speculating by and large. Let's just move on.


Noblehunter -

One of the biggest reasons to be afraid of Mab is that she doesn't need to possess you in order to control your movements. Murphy was an agent of Mab's will but there was no magic involved.

Please provide evidence of that fact. She literally says in Summer Knight (as I quoted earlier) that if a mortal ISN'T bound to her, she CANNOT override them and play puppet master. If you have any text or WOJ contradicting that, go ahead and enlighten me. Also, how can no magic be involved in Mab was puppeting Murphy? How else would she get it done? Electrodes taped to each of their brains/arms connecting them via a machine (technically possible but completely impractical and certainly not what happened in the text).



Getting back to the point of this thread: Harry using Black Magic. He has had a few instances we know of, however he appears to be not going full Warlock as they seem to be limited. Hard to tell though considering all the other things vying for his soul/sanity. Why isn't the taint affecting him OR how much black magic does it take before you go Warlock? The White Council seems to think that one violation is dangerous enough, with the pure exception of self-defense under very specific circumstances (and of course the Blackstaff..but that's a whole other thing). Perhaps it all about how much power goes to your head? When you start trying to shape the universe to your will? In fairness, that essentially is magic (enforcing your will to override the universe whether for good or bad reasons). Maybe it only really applies when your start trying to override other mortals Free Will (or take away their choices).

And another thing...in earlier books Harry noticed he had some taint in his own magic. Where do we think he is now compared to then? More or less?

[Arjan]

Using black magic taints you, changes your nature. But free will is the ability to make choices against your own nature. It is difficult to do and most people don't but the coice is there not to go full warlock.

[Yuillegan]

Hmm. I think that's only possible answer that suits the text. Interesting though that Harry mostly has resisted. But I wonder who else has used lots of Black Magic but hasn't gone full Warlock...Cowl might be a good example, and Kumori.

[Arjan]

Hmm. I think that's only possible answer that suits the text. Interesting though that Harry mostly has resisted. But I wonder who else has used lots of Black Magic but hasn't gone full Warlock...Cowl might be a good example, and Kumori.

If you use it a lot then you do no have resisted it and you are a warlock. Not all warlocks get dysfunctional crazy probably because they have other goals in life but in real life the most dangerous lunatics are not in the asylum either.

[didymos]

Hmm. I think that's only possible answer that suits the text. Interesting though that Harry mostly has resisted. But I wonder who else has used lots of Black Magic but hasn't gone full Warlock...Cowl might be a good example, and Kumori.

Kumori is interesting because her magic doesn't feel like the other necromancers:

It felt strange somehow. Dawn had dispersed most of the energy that had been there, but even as an aftertaste of the magic that had been worked there, the cold was dizzying. I’d felt dark power similar to this before today—similar, but not identical. There was something about this that was unlike the horrible aura surrounding Grevane, or that I had sensed from wielders of black magic in my past. This was undeniably the same power, but it somehow lacked the greasy, nauseating sense of corruption I’d felt before.

Butcher, Jim. Dead Beat: A Novel of The Dresden Files (pp. 128-129). Penguin Group. Kindle Edition.

[Mira]

As to the Mab literally, personally, physically killing Maeve debate...clearly this has to be an agree to disagree. You have your interpretation of the text, others have a different one. You are welcome to believe your interpretation of course. But I wouldn't expect anyone to agree with you on it, either. You have made your case but I think largely it has been rejected by the rest. You could be right and may well one day be vindicated, but for now let it rest. Your argument is not yet a fact - like a lot of what's in these forums we are all just speculating by and large. Let's just move on.

Nor has yours been proven, time will tell... Looking at the elephant's tail, Murphy pulled the trigger ergo, it was her, she saved the day... Verses the whole elephant, none of it would have happened had Harry not summoned Mab, who freed Murphy's hand, thus using her...  Harry knows, Harry to Mab, "You didn't answer my question." I said.  She stopped her back straight. "Was it hard for youto kill Maeve?" Not witness, not enable Murphy, but for Mab to kill her daughter.
Rest my case, yes, let's move on.

[noblehunter]

Noblehunter -
Please provide evidence of that fact. She literally says in Summer Knight (as I quoted earlier) that if a mortal ISN'T bound to her, she CANNOT override them and play puppet master. If you have any text or WOJ contradicting that, go ahead and enlighten me. Also, how can no magic be involved in Mab was puppeting Murphy? How else would she get it done? Electrodes taped to each of their brains/arms connecting them via a machine (technically possible but completely impractical and certainly not what happened in the text).

I was speaking metaphorically. It's the same way Mab gets Harry to do what she wants or the way Lash got Harry to kill himself.

[Bad Alias]

If this is true why not detonate Demonreach on Halloween?  Use the banefire and end the problem forever.

Maybe so you can put more "people" in the prison?

[Yuillegan]

I was speaking metaphorically. It's the same way Mab gets Harry to do what she wants or the way Lash got Harry to kill himself.

My apologies, due the nature of the debate previously I assumed you were being literal. And I quite agree, Mab's ability to manipulate and influence and force people to do what she wants is second to none in the series.

Even if that were possible - pretty sure Demonreach wouldn't be a fan, the question is why Merlin and the following Wardens chose to imprison rather than kill all those nasties. We know Naagloshii are immortal, but I suspect the one that Morgan destroyed was merely put down for a time or else would have had to be blown up in a special place in space or time. My guess is either Merlin and his following Wardens didn't know how to kill immortals OR they thought trapping them was far easier, more efficient and better overall.

Even assuming you could live with the guilt of murdering millions of people and causing untold destruction yourself by blowing up Demonreach on Halloween - that energy of all those immortals has to go somewhere, it can't be destroyed. Mother Summer confirms this in Summer Knight. So I would guess it either goes out to Oblivion or Outside (assuming they are different places) or that energy goes into the Nevernever and something or a group of somethings get a whole lot of power to add to their own. You quite likely create a problem worse than the solution, is my point.

Not to mention, not only would Demonreach not cooperate with this plan (not in the least because it too would die, but it's primary function is to stop this event all together) but I imagine Vadderung, most of the Gray Council and several other interested parties wouldn't allow it, you know like the guys who primarily don't want to see an apocalypse. I would say there are a fair few (both good and bad) who are in the know and wouldn't like that outcome.

Kumori, Cowl and several others have had a distinctly different flavor of dark magic. My theory is that Harry's own bias has colored how he sees Dark Magic, and isn't aware of the mechanisms and subtleties all that much. Meaning if he knew the source of black magic, if he knew how corruption works, he might understand why Kumori and Cowl and himself have a different feel of black magic too them. And consider this: Justin was a bad guy using black magic, but he had been hiding his power while he was still considered a Warden. Not only that but Harry or Elaine would have felt the wrongness of Justin's magic if he had been horribly tainted, yet they didn't. Meaning there are nuances and tricks that Harry is blind to. Even Peabody quite likely hid his magical taint (assuming he had some). We know this is possible from WOJ.

Arjan, I think it's a lot more grey than that. I don't think it is so black and white as if you use too much you are a Warlock. The Council has definitions that don't necessarily match up with the universe's. Jim said something about that when people asked him about the Laws of Magic.

[morriswalters]

Maybe so you can put more "people" in the prison?

Have they put any new prisoners in?

Even assuming you could live with the guilt of murdering millions of people and causing untold destruction yourself by blowing up Demonreach on Halloween - that energy of all those immortals has to go somewhere, it can't be destroyed. Mother Summer confirms this in Summer Knight. So I would guess it either goes out to Oblivion or Outside (assuming they are different places) or that energy goes into the Nevernever and something or a group of somethings get a whole lot of power to add to their own. You quite likely create a problem worse than the solution, is my point.

To the first, not my dimension, not my problem.  To the second, it does what energy does, it radiates, probably flashes Lake Michigan to steam, something like that. And you may be over estimating the problem.  Morgan nuked a nagwhatever and nobody ever noticed.

[Bad Alias]

Have they put any new prisoners in?

Either they have, or they managed to put all of them in there at once. I don't imagine the second is likely. Additionally, Harry seems to think he could have Alfred take Mab below in Skin Game. For those two reasons, I think they have or at least could.