Harry's use of Black Magic

[Bad Alias]

I also think as long as she still has a human soul or piece of one Molly will suffer a stain from it.

This is basically what I was getting at. If Molly still has the ability to "fight" the mantle, as Harry was told mantle holders in fact do, then Molly is not entirely fae. If she's not entirely fae, what is that other part? I'd say human. If she is human and uses black magic, then she can be tainted by that use. Perhaps it's such a small part that the drives of the mantel outweigh the drives of the black magic taint to the point it won't matter to her actions. I imagine it would matter to her soul.

  I disagree,  Harry is repentant about killing, but he is a soldier, sometimes lives have to be taken.  I totally disagree that killing has become a mundane thing with him.

100%.

If using magic shapes you and black magic is bad because it shapes you badly, then the Council's policy doesn't make sense. The death penalty isn't the answer. Forcing the warlock to do the opposite of whatever law the violated until "white" magic has shaped them into a good person. Additionally, the older wizards becoming fixed is largely, if not entirely, physical. That's why Luccio's body switch allowed her to be tampered with.

[g33k]

This is basically what I was getting at. If Molly still has the ability to "fight" the mantle, as Harry was told mantle holders in fact do, then Molly is not entirely fae. If she's not entirely fae, what is that other part? I'd say human. If she is human and uses black magic, then she can be tainted by that use. Perhaps it's such a small part that the drives of the mantel outweigh the drives of the black magic taint to the point it won't matter to her actions. I imagine it would matter to her soul...

I'd like to refine your point a bit:  if Black Magic is "destructive" to the soul (and I assert that it is), then both the Winter Mantle and her own predilection for warlock ways are acting in mutually-reenforcing ways to strip her soul down to virtually nothing, leaving only the Winter Lady, free to use Black Magic because the Faerie Queens ARE free of those mortal restraints.

... If using magic shapes you and black magic is bad because it shapes you badly, then the Council's policy doesn't make sense. The death penalty isn't the answer. Forcing the warlock to do the opposite of whatever law the violated until "white" magic has shaped them into a good person...

I think it's like a mended point in a larger piece -- there's a sort of "structural flaw" there, a weakness that may break under stress, may degrade over time.

The claim is made to Harry that the "supposedly-Ex" warlock, sooner or later, inevitably returns to type.

I suspect they are "right" but largely because of their largely-mechanical approach to magic, with less of a spiritual component.  It's a self-fulfilling Doom.   They have ZERO ability to address the needs of the soul.

[Arjan]

The claim is made to Harry that the "supposedly-Ex" warlock, sooner or later, inevitably returns to type.

I suspect they are "right" but largely because of their largely-mechanical approach to magic, with less of a spiritual component.  It's a self-fulfilling Doom.   They have ZERO ability to address the needs of the soul.

They are mostly correct because they ignore free will which gives a good approximation of the expected results. The knights of the cross and Uriel look at the problem from a completely different angle. They are all about the importance of free will and want to give the warlock a chance.

In reality each case is different

[Mira]

I'd like to refine your point a bit:  if Black Magic is "destructive" to the soul (and I assert that it is), then both the Winter Mantle and her own predilection for warlock ways are acting in mutually-reenforcing ways to strip her soul down to virtually nothing, leaving only the Winter Lady, free to use Black Magic because the Faerie Queens ARE free of those mortal restraints.

Thank you, it does, and this is what ultimately destroys the souls of the Ladies and Queens. 

[Arjan]

Thank you, it does, and this is what ultimately destroys the souls of the Ladies and Queens.

Or alternatively what the Ladies and Queens do is not black magic at all.

[Mira]

Or alternatively what the Ladies and Queens do is not black magic at all.

  Depends on how you define it I suppose..  Under most laws murder is a crime, but what about the few places where it isn't against the law?  It is still murder, but one is punished where the other is not.. 
But the Courts have their own set of rules,  It is against those rules for Mab to kill or harm a mortal herself, that is why she has a mortal Knight to carry out her orders..  It is a loop hole, she has a mortal hit man..  Yet since she ordered it, does it stain her?

[Arjan]

  Depends on how you define it I suppose..  Under most laws murder is a crime, but what about the few places where it isn't against the law? 

Murder is defined as an unlawful killing. Under Icelandic law a killing only became a murder if the killer tried to hide it and did not proclaim it as soon as possible. Murder is not just a crime against the person killed it is a crime against society.

There is a lot of terminology with a lot of different meanings for ending someones life.

It is still murder, but one is punished where the other is not.. 

Actually it is not if there is no law against it. That is why there is international criminal law:

https://www.roberthjackson.org/speech-and-writing/the-influence-of-the-nuremberg-trial-on-international-criminal-law/

But the Courts have their own set of rules,  It is against those rules for Mab to kill or harm a mortal herself, that is why she has a mortal Knight to carry out her orders..  It is a loop hole, she has a mortal hit man..  Yet since she ordered it, does it stain her?

Not according to the councils laws of magic. You can gate in monsters and walk away. You did not kill them with your magic. It is what binder does.

There are a lot of things you can do without breaking the laws of magic. You can cause a lot of harm without breaking the laws of magic.

Maybe the fairy courts did find all the loopholes. They have a different relationship with their magic.

[Mira]

Murder is defined as an unlawful killing. Under Icelandic law a killing only became a murder if the killer tried to hide it and did not proclaim it as soon as possible. Murder is not just a crime against the person killed it is a crime against society.

But what if the society is okay with it?  We know under the Laws of Magic pretty much what is considered black magic..  Supposedly the Fae see things differently, so there is no black magic supposedly..  However the act itself is the same..  The Laws are imposed by society, or an outside force, but if we can believe what creates a warlock, breaking those Laws have a physical, mental, and emotional effect on the practitioner, it leaves a stain whether he/she is caught and punished or not.  The very same acts are not dealt with by the Fae, so is there a stain or not? 

[Arjan]

But what if the society is okay with it?  We know under the Laws of Magic pretty much what is considered black magic..  Supposedly the Fae see things differently, so there is no black magic supposedly..  However the act itself is the same..  The Laws are imposed by society, or an outside force, but if we can believe what creates a warlock, breaking those Laws have a physical, mental, and emotional effect on the practitioner, it leaves a stain whether he/she is caught and punished or not.  The very same acts are not dealt with by the Fae, so is there a stain or not?

Society is never ok with murder because society defines what murder is.

Morality is not a constant and we hope it improves over time. Historically it did improve over time. It is necessary if we want a liveable society with more and more people.

Magic changes over time. It is entirely possible that things that are now black did not used to be. Magic is about what people believe and it is entirely possible that centuries of wizards believing and enforcing the laws of magic made magic as it is now.

Say we made an eight law against magical torture. Is that black magic now? Will it be black magic after a few centuries? Or will it never be?

What if killing with magic was allowed in war? Same question.

[Mira]

Society is never ok with murder because society defines what murder is.

Morality is not a constant and we hope it improves over time. Historically it did improve over time. It is necessary if we want a liveable society with more and more people.

Magic changes over time. It is entirely possible that things that are now black did not used to be. Magic is about what people believe and it is entirely possible that centuries of wizards believing and enforcing the laws of magic made magic as it is now.

Say we made an eight law against magical torture. Is that black magic now? Will it be black magic after a few centuries? Or will it never be?

What if killing with magic was allowed in war? Same question.

"By any other name does a rose smell as sweet?"   So an act done by a wizard is soul staining black magic, but the exact same act done by a Fae isn't?

[Bad Alias]

The very same acts are not dealt with by the Fae, so is there a stain or not?

I think that is the question. If Lea kills someone in Chicago, it isn't murder because murder is "the unlawful killing of another human being with malice aforethought, express or implied." The laws of magic, as understood by the Council, are basically "don't do X" with an understood "to mortals." What if there is also an understood "mortals" in front of "don't do X?" It could be that Lea can't do black magic because she isn't mortal. Now there is the question of whether or not a fairy queen is at all mortal and therefore is subject to the cosmic, not council, laws of magic.

"By any other name does a rose smell as sweet?"   So an act done by a wizard is soul staining black magic, but the exact same act done by a Fae isn't?

Generally speaking, they don't have a soul to stain, so generally speaking, no.

They are mostly correct because they ignore free will which gives a good approximation of the expected results. The knights of the cross and Uriel look at the problem from a completely different angle. They are all about the importance of free will and want to give the warlock a chance.

In reality each case is different

This is an important point. The Merlin's perspective is that Nature determines actions. The KotC's perspective is that mortal's have Choice (the ability to act against their natures). Uriel makes the point in The Warrior that mortals almost never exercise Choice. I think Choice vs. Nature is an important theme of the DF.

[Mira]

Generally speaking, they don't have a soul to stain, so generally speaking, no.

But supposedly Mab began as a human, Molly, as far as we know is still human..

[morriswalters]

"By any other name does a rose smell as sweet?"   So an act done by a wizard is soul staining black magic, but the exact same act done by a Fae isn't?

In the Dresdenverse, apparently, yes.  But the irony is striking, unless I missed something no Fae, in the text, has actually killed with magic.  Did I miss something?

[g33k]

  Depends on how you define it I suppose..  Under most laws murder is a crime, but what about the few places where it isn't against the law?  It is still murder, but one is punished where the other is not.. 
But the Courts have their own set of rules,  It is against those rules for Mab to kill or harm a mortal herself, that is why she has a mortal Knight to carry out her orders..  It is a loop hole, she has a mortal hit man..  Yet since she ordered it, does it stain her?

The Queens use a LOT of mental magic.  Mab made Harry forget things, Mab AND Maeve filled Harry with lust.  This is also Black Magic, but apparently un-damaging to them.

My assertion is that it would be damaging to Molly:  to the part(s) of her that are still human, and still cares about people.  Eventually, be it the Mantle or the Black Magic, Molly won't really care for humans anymore... except maybe as mild affections.

[Arjan]

The Queens use a LOT of mental magic.  Mab made Harry forget things, Mab AND Maeve filled Harry with lust.  This is also Black Magic, but apparently un-damaging to them.

My assertion is that it would be damaging to Molly:  to the part(s) of her that are still human, and still cares about people.  Eventually, be it the Mantle or the Black Magic, Molly won't really care for humans anymore... except maybe as mild affections.

Harry created a lust potion without problems. Just raising emotions is not seen as entering someone’s mind.

And in a way the Sidhe queens need permission to enter someone’s mind. Mab could not have done it without his debt to her. The way Sidhe deals work might be enough not to make it black magic.