Harry's use of Black Magic

[Arjan]

I'd argue that (like Black Magic) the Winter Lady mantle is fundamentally incompatible with much that we consider "humanity."  Mab was once human, too; she pretty thoroughly ISN'T anymore.  Molly is already beginning to drift that way...

Which is not necessarily a bad thing for her. She now has an important purpose and can actually make a difference in this world. Better than cackling warlock for sure.

I do not think Uriel sees it as a bad thing, that was my impression from skin game anyway.

She has a bunch of new power -- Winter Lady power -- that she didn't have when she was just Molly.  But she still DOES (afaik) have those same powers that lured her toward Black Magic; she is still susceptible to many of the same temptations and subject to having her own soul corrupted.  I'd argue, in fact, that Winter is liable to push her even HARDER that way.

One of the fundamental properties of a warlock is lack of control. The drive to break laws. Molly will be forced to keep laws. She will be busy performing her duties including the backlog.

She can not break her new ruless. Literally can not.

She is beyond the reach of the White Council's laws, it's true.  But the Dresdenverse has "Laws of Magic" that are more like "laws of nature," and those still apply.  By those laws, Molly is still at risk.  I don't think "cackling villainy" is the risk anymore; rather, as her soul slips, SHE will be slipping more quickly into pure-WinterLady-ism, less Molly and more Sociopathic-Harlot-Virgin Maeve.

She can loose herself to the mantle. As  far as we know because I do not think what we have heard until now is that reliable. Jim has a lot of working it out to do.

As Bob put it:  Welcome to the new Winter Lady, same as the old Winter Lady.  The Mantle will come to define who she is, how she acts... much more than anything else does (including "being Molly Carpenter" or "Having been Harry's apprentice").

That is what Bob thought about the winter mantle too. Bob knows what usually happens but he does not know what can happen.

And that is assuming Maeves behaviour was typical and necessary winter lady behaviour which is not likely at all. I think a lot was Maeve herself and it got power when Nemesis got into it.

[Mira]

And that is assuming Maeves behaviour was typical and necessary winter lady behaviour which is not likely at all. I think a lot was Maeve herself and it got power when Nemesis got into it.

  I don't disagree with this, but I see elements in this of danger for Molly.  She has shown that she is capable of breaking the Law even if it meant death to both her and Harry.  We saw in the short story about her since she became Winter Lady that she was willing to break the rules about sex and Winter Ladies.   I guess one could argue ignorance, but I think it was more she ignored the rules and Ramirez suffered for it. 

[Bad Alias]

Willing and able are two different things. Molly literally can't "act in affairs not directly related to the Sidhe court." Summer Knight Ch. 10. This will greatly limit her ability to use magic on mortals at all. Mab was once mortal. She messed with Harry's mind in Small Favor. Was that black magic?

[Arjan]

Willing and able are two different things. Molly literally can't "act in affairs not directly related to the Sidhe court." Summer Knight Ch. 10. This will greatly limit her ability to use magic on mortals at all. Mab was once mortal. She messed with Harry's mind in Small Favor. Was that black magic?

No because the fairy courts work under different rules. A human nature, especially a young human nature, is very malleable and is easily changed when using the wrong kind of magic. It was hinted by the gatekeeper that an older wizard can use the power of the island with less risk than Harry can at his age. An older wizard is more set in his ways and is less vulnerable to mind attacks for example.

Mab is a very old wizard with a strong mantle, she is not that easily changed by using the wrong kind of magic and her magic is not used contrary to her nature anyway. Different rules, she does what she thinks is necessary to fulfill her purpose.

The Sidhe have a far more balanced approach to their magic and are not in internal conflict about it. That is why they can use cellphones and human wizards can not.

You can also reason that by making a deal with the Sidhe and by being in their debt he gave permission. Mab could not have done so if he was not in her debt. It works different from the seven laws but the Sidhe are also bound by rules and there are some similarities.

[Mira]

Willing and able are two different things. Molly literally can't "act in affairs not directly related to the Sidhe court." Summer Knight Ch. 10. This will greatly limit her ability to use magic on mortals at all. Mab was once mortal. She messed with Harry's mind in Small Favor. Was that black magic?

  Yes, it was black magic, but because she is the Winter Queen she cannot be touched by the Council.  It is possible part of the reason why she has the dark reputation she has is she once was a warlock or on her way to being one. 

[Bad Alias]

I think Mira and Arjan have demonstrated my point that it is debatable as to whether a Faerie Queen can violate the laws of magic.

[Arjan]

I think Mira and Arjan have demonstrated my point that it is debatable as to whether a Faerie Queen can violate the laws of magic.

They can not. They are simply not subject to those laws, they are under a different set of laws as was shown in Cold Case.

As t what extend something that would have broken the laws for a human would have an effect on a Sidhe simmilar to the effect black magic has on humans I would again say no. If she can do it it is according to winter law and it won't change her.

What is important now is fullfilling her purpose within the restrictions of her new nature. 

[morriswalters]

Well Jim has established that their magic is different than mortal magic. For example their magic doesn't interfere with technology.  The first thing Molly does odd, is get a smartphone.

One question might be, does the Black Staff allow the wielder to Fae use magic?  And does the black stuff crawling up Eb's arm represent Fae magic trying to take over the wielder? Or maybe this is already established and I'm behind the curve?

[Arjan]

Well Jim has established that their magic is different than mortal magic. For example their magic doesn't interfere with technology.  The first thing Molly does odd, is get a smartphone.

One question might be, does the Black Staff allow the wielder to Fae use magic?  And does the black stuff crawling up Eb's arm represent Fae magic trying to take over the wielder? Or maybe this is already established and I'm behind the curve?

It is about free will.

Humans are able to change themselves relatively easy. If you get a lot of power that change becomes more and more difficult.

[Mira]

It is about free will.

Humans are able to change themselves relatively easy. If you get a lot of power that change becomes more and more difficult.

   Also black magic is black magic in my opinion, whether wielded by a wizard or a Fae..  Penalties or lack there of for using it may be different but that is little comfort to the one on the receiving end.  I also think as long as she still has a human soul or piece of one Molly will suffer a stain from it.  It might be that more than anything that has twisted Mab over a thousand years..  Here is another tin hat thought,  we know the black staff protects Eb from the negative effects of black magic.. What if it
performed exactly the same task for Mother Winter?  That might account for some of her attitude because she does what she must do now without it's protection.

[Arjan]

   Also black magic is black magic in my opinion, whether wielded by a wizard or a Fae..  Penalties or lack there of for using it may be different but that is little comfort to the one on the receiving end.  I also think as long as she still has a human soul or piece of one Molly will suffer a stain from it.  It might be that more than anything that has twisted Mab over a thousand years..  Here is another tin hat thought,  we know the black staff protects Eb from the negative effects of black magic.. What if it
performed exactly the same task for Mother Winter?  That might account for some of her attitude because she does what she must do now without it's protection.

For Molly it is simple now. If it is against her nature she simply can not do it. No changing of the winter mantle that way.

Mother winter can not get that involved now anyway. Maybe her staf was given to a human to do necessary things. The great powers split of small parts of their power to meddle with mortal affairs like the knights and this is similar.

[Mira]

For Molly it is simple now. If it is against her nature she simply can not do it. No changing of the winter mantle that way.

Mother winter can not get that involved now anyway. Maybe her staf was given to a human to do necessary things. The great powers split of small parts of their power to meddle with mortal affairs like the knights and this is similar.

  Then why does Mother Summer say Mother doesn't go out much now because she lost her stick?  If it was given, it apparently wasn't her wish that it be given..  Though yeah, she might have also meant that she lost it because she gave it up.. Jim again gives himself some wiggle room..

[g33k]

...  We saw in the short story about her since she became Winter Lady that she was willing to break the rules about sex and Winter Ladies.   I guess one could argue ignorance, but I think it was more she ignored the rules and Ramirez suffered for it.

No, I think it was genuine ignorance.  I think that scene was where Molly learned about the restriction.

I think she was presuming, since she was feeling extra-horny from Winter urges, that Winter wanted her to be sexually-active.  I think it was a shock to her that she was being pushed that way, but unable to indulge.

I think Mab was intentionally "letting her learn the hard way," and presuming that she'd learn better if she hurt (or killed) a partner...

I am unclear if the Knights are an exception to the rule; I tend to believe not:  I think the Knight-and-Lady pairs are the models upon which the troubadors built those images of chaste-but-intense amours, forbidden love (that was part of the very-transgressive nature of Lancelot & Guenevere).

[BrainFireBob]

  Then why does Mother Summer say Mother doesn't go out much now because she lost her stick?  If it was given, it apparently wasn't her wish that it be given..  Though yeah, she might have also meant that she lost it because she gave it up.. Jim again gives himself some wiggle room..

Or she gave it to someone and it just wasn't returned when expected.

She may inherently be black magic to the earth when she walks it.

Completely unrelated, but I normally read on my phone and it's hard to post there. I think a number of posters don't understand the Black Magic *twisting*.

It seems to me that *all magic* reinforces you and makes you more easily able to use it. In other words, the more fire magic Harry uses, the better he is with fire magic- and it's not just that he has practice, but that his abilities with fire magic, like in a RPG, increase because he becomes someone more able to use fire magic. Not just like building up muscle, but his personality because more disposed this way.

It would explain why older wizards become "fixed" and difficult to tamper with; every use of magic reinforces who you are and eliminates extraneous bits. Think of it like wizards becoming less grey and more crisply black and white as they use magic, the opposite of laundry. Use it to heal someone repeatedly, and you become someone who is a healer; a personality trait amplified and focused by your use of healing. It *removes* personality traits that would make you conflicted about the magic, by making you a subtly different photocopy of yourself every time you engage in the act.

Harry's been using force a lot more as he ages, and fire less- he's also becoming more stubbornly focused and less reactionary and angry. He's *become* more force and less fire.

It explains Eb and Langtry- different sides of the French-Indian war, right? Eb's the best at blowing things up and Langtry's the best  . . at stopping things being up. They *forced* each other to develop in that way, and it's why they can't get along now. Oil and water. Their magic made them opposite personalities.

Black magic would work the same- it doesn't just overcome normal conscious squeamishness, it erases the personality traits that would make you squeem and re-writes you into someone who will reach for it naturally. Harry's completely unrepentant about killing. He worries about the backlash about killing with magic, but he doesn't bat an eye at killing- mundanely. That's part of his backlash..

[Mira]

Black magic would work the same- it doesn't just overcome normal conscious squeamishness, it erases the personality traits that would make you squeem and re-writes you into someone who will reach for it naturally. Harry's completely unrepentant about killing. He worries about the backlash about killing with magic, but he doesn't bat an eye at killing- mundanely. That's part of his backlash..

  I disagree,  Harry is repentant about killing, but he is a soldier, sometimes lives have to be taken.  I totally disagree that killing has become a mundane thing with him.