Harry's use of Black Magic

[Melriken]

Molly used magic to impose her will over another person’s. That’s black magic.  It doesn’t matter what the change was, therefore it doesn’t matter what the intention of choosing that change was. I think it does (should?) matter what Molly intended to do (in this case impose her will on another directly with magic), just not what she intended the outcome to be (help them).

If I intended to shoot you but wanted to hit your leg and slow you down I still intended to shoot you and if I hit your fimeral  artery and kill you that’s murder.

If I try to take your picture and have no idea that the camera has been modified to shoot bullets not take pictures and shoot you in the head... not murder.

If I give you my blanket to keep you warm and help you survive the winter and have no way of knowing that it will give you smallpox... not murder...

Jim’s statements on these were fairly vague, I would love to get some more explicit commentary from him on them, but for now my interpretations stand.  Your intended outcomes don’t matter, but what you intended to DO does.

[g33k]

Just out of curiosity, is anything other than murder by magic true soul staining Black Magic?

Mind invasion, overriding other wills.  Recall "the Korean kid" who was executed.  He was corrupted into raving lunacy by what he did.

I suspect that ALL the laws lead there, eventually.  Some of them just faster, maybe?  Or harder to resist?

I don't think we've got all the information, enough to answer.

[Bad Alias]

Your intended outcomes don’t matter, but what you intended to DO does.

I think, but it's only a guess, that intended outcome does matter. I think an innocent intention mitigates the amount of corruption. Let's take Molly for example. Her intent was pure, mostly. If her intent was malicious, she would get 100% of the black magic corruption that comes with the act. But because that wasn't the case she only receives a portion of the corruption. For example 75%. Now, we don't know the amount of corruption that comes from any black magic act or how much mitigation intent would have if I'm correct at all.

[Mira]

I think, but it's only a guess, that intended outcome does matter. I think an innocent intention mitigates the amount of corruption. Let's take Molly for example. Her intent was pure, mostly. If her intent was malicious, she would get 100% of the black magic corruption that comes with the act. But because that wasn't the case she only receives a portion of the corruption. For example 75%. Now, we don't know the amount of corruption that comes from any black magic act or how much mitigation intent would have if I'm correct at all.

   I think intent does count, but at the same time we are told that ignorance of the law doesn't always get one off.  Molly's intentions may have been good, but committing mind rape isn't, irregardless of the outcome.   The problem is if Molly believes her intentions were good, the next step is to justify them even though the outcome was bad for her friends.  If she can justify them, what is to stop her from repeating the act?  Nothing.  That is the slippery slope, and it only gets slipperier and steeper sliding into warlockhood.   

[Bad Alias]

What you describe is a slippery slope. The Council wouldn't be executing people under that rationalization because such behavior can be corrected relatively easily. The twisting of the mind that results from using black magic is why the Council executes practitioners who use it.

[g33k]

What you describe is a slippery slope. The Council wouldn't be executing people under that rationalization because such behavior can be corrected relatively easily. The twisting of the mind that results from using black magic is why the Council executes practitioners who use it.

I think the WC has a much, MUCH easier time determining the binary "did/didn't commit an act of Black Magic" than they have calibrating anything like a "% corrupted."  So... if there's lots of mitigating factors like "they meant well" and "it was an accident" &c -- AND a wizard willing to oversee / rehabilitate the proto-warlock -- then the WC sometimes will levy the Doom, instead of just giving the Chop.

But the WC also has the overall "everyone knows this" sense that (most of the time) a convicted warlock who gets clemency still (eventually) returns to Black Magic... and still needs to be put down (only this time, they're more-senior, much harder to kill, and often have done much much more damage).

Better by far to just chop all those borderline cases, and save the (very many) victims  of the inevitable backsliders, instead of the (very few) never-revert-to-warlock-ways wizards.
 

[Mira]

I think the WC has a much, MUCH easier time determining the binary "did/didn't commit an act of Black Magic" than they have calibrating anything like a "% corrupted."  So... if there's lots of mitigating factors like "they meant well" and "it was an accident" &c -- AND a wizard willing to oversee / rehabilitate the proto-warlock -- then the WC sometimes will levy the Doom, instead of just giving the Chop.

   It isn't so simple, take Molly she meant well, she wanted her friends off of drugs...  I guess since she hadn't a clue of what she was doing, it was sort of an accident... But what about when she tried to look into Morgan's mind, the mind of Luccio, even Harry to see if the influence of Lasciel was still there, she could find justification in each case, and yeah she meant well, but because she thinks she knows best she is willing to risk Harry's life along with her own..  Point is, she didn't learn her lesson, each time she does it the justification gets thinner and thinner until she doesn't need any at all..

[Bad Alias]

I think the WC has a much, MUCH easier time determining the binary "did/didn't commit an act of Black Magic" than they have calibrating anything like a "% corrupted."  So... if there's lots of mitigating factors like "they meant well" and "it was an accident" &c -- AND a wizard willing to oversee / rehabilitate the proto-warlock -- then the WC sometimes will levy the Doom, instead of just giving the Chop.

But the WC also has the overall "everyone knows this" sense that (most of the time) a convicted warlock who gets clemency still (eventually) returns to Black Magic... and still needs to be put down (only this time, they're more-senior, much harder to kill, and often have done much much more damage).

Better by far to just chop all those borderline cases, and save the (very many) victims  of the inevitable backsliders, instead of the (very few) never-revert-to-warlock-ways wizards.

Yeah.

   It isn't so simple, take Molly she meant well, she wanted her friends off of drugs...  I guess since she hadn't a clue of what she was doing, it was sort of an accident... But what about when she tried to look into Morgan's mind, the mind of Luccio, even Harry to see if the influence of Lasciel was still there, she could find justification in each case, and yeah she meant well, but because she thinks she knows best she is willing to risk Harry's life along with her own..  Point is, she didn't learn her lesson, each time she does it the justification gets thinner and thinner until she doesn't need any at all..

Well, yeah because black magic corrupts and twists people.

[Arjan]

Yeah.
Well, yeah because black magic corrupts and twists people.

That does not mean it is impossible, just difficult and risky. Ebenezer and Harry had a real impact on Harry and Molly compared to what otherwise would have happened. Ebenezar approved of what Harry tried to do with Molly. Changes interrupted that.

But really after all the trauma she went through in changes and ghost story and after the council was officially hunting for her she was still committed to not breaking those same councils laws. The old Molly would have gone completely bonkers.

[Mira]

That does not mean it is impossible, just difficult and risky. Ebenezer and Harry had a real impact on Harry and Molly compared to what otherwise would have happened. Ebenezar approved of what Harry tried to do with Molly. Changes interrupted that.

But really after all the trauma she went through in changes and ghost story and after the council was officially hunting for her she was still committed to not breaking those same councils laws. The old Molly would have gone completely bonkers.

  Part of that is maturity, part of it is the morality of her up bringing, but make no mistake, a part of her is still twisted.  It is that aspect that Mab and Lea took advantage of, only time will tell whether or not it continues to twist her into someone a kin to Maeve.  While Nemesis infection finally spelled madness and the end for Maeve, black magic could do exactly the same to Molly.. It's corruption doesn't stop even if she is now beyond the Council's reach.

[Arjan]

  Part of that is maturity, part of it is the morality of her up bringing, but make no mistake, a part of her is still twisted.  It is that aspect that Mab and Lea took advantage of, only time will tell whether or not it continues to twist her into someone a kin to Maeve.  While Nemesis infection finally spelled madness and the end for Maeve, black magic could do exactly the same to Molly.. It's corruption doesn't stop even if she is now beyond the Council's reach.

Harry was not finished with Molly. The process was interrupted.

Also all Molly's law violations after the first one are debatable and were already debated on this forum. It is not sure she did even break any laws as such. Also she is under winter law now and she certainly did not anything that was wrong according to those laws. And she can not break them as she is now, black magic does not work like that only nemesis can in some cases provide that.

Also she has no real issue with winters objectives. She is actually en route to become quite an efficient winter lady. The chances that she looses herself in that job are far greater than that part of her wizard power she wants to suppress anyway will take over. Her warlock days are definitively over.

[Mira]

Harry was not finished with Molly. The process was interrupted.

Also all Molly's law violations after the first one are debatable and were already debated on this forum. It is not sure she did even break any laws as such. Also she is under winter law now and she certainly did not anything that was wrong according to those laws. And she can not break them as she is now, black magic does not work like that only nemesis can in some cases provide that.

Also she has no real issue with winters objectives. She is actually en route to become quite an efficient winter lady. The chances that she looses herself in that job are far greater than that part of her wizard power she wants to suppress anyway will take over. Her warlock days are definitively over.

Really?   She is still has power, more so now that she is Winter Lady.   Being Winter Lady doesn't stop her from doing black magic,  just because she is beyond the Laws of Magic doesn't stop her from also being a warlock.   It doesn't matter if she is effective as a Winter Lady, being Winter Lady doesn't prevent black magic from staining her if she chooses to preform it..  It is still breaking the Laws of Magic, but she remains free because now she is out of White Council jurisdiction.. But doesn't that still make her a warlock?

What Molly did to her friend regardless of what her motive were, is mind rape, she entered without permission their minds and tried to bend their behavior to her choices.  That is considered black magic and did break one of the Laws, and ignorance of the law is usually not an excuse. 

[Arjan]

Really?   She is still has power, more so now that she is Winter Lady.   Being Winter Lady doesn't stop her from doing black magic,  just because she is beyond the Laws of Magic doesn't stop her from also being a warlock.   It doesn't matter if she is effective as a Winter Lady, being Winter Lady doesn't prevent black magic from staining her if she chooses to preform it..  It just means that the Winter Court will have a warlock as a Winter Lady..

Power has nature and that is what causes black magic corruption. Harry was already helping Molly to change her nature away from black magic for some time and it clearly had become weaker in those years. The power of the mantle is much greater than the remnants of the black magic in her, it will have much more influence on her. Unlike Maeve Molly has already accepted the responsibility that comes with the mantle. She wants to be a dutiful winter lady. Most of her power and the whole winter mantle wants her to be a good winter lady. All the sense of responsibility steers her in that direction.

She found purpose and that is much stronger than warlock Molly. The danger for her soul is not in black magic. She found harmony with her magic that no mortal can achieve. That is why she can use a cellphone now, no warlock can do so.

Warlock Molly is finished. It is now Winter Lady Molly. Different story.

[Mira]

Warlock Molly is finished. It is now Winter Lady Molly. Different story.

That remains to be seen.. 

[g33k]

Power has nature and that is what causes black magic corruption. Harry was already helping Molly to change her nature away from black magic for some time and it clearly had become weaker in those years. The power of the mantle is much greater than the remnants of the black magic in her, it will have much more influence on her. Unlike Maeve Molly has already accepted the responsibility that comes with the mantle. She wants to be a dutiful winter lady. Most of her power and the whole winter mantle wants her to be a good winter lady. All the sense of responsibility steers her in that direction.

She found purpose and that is much stronger than warlock Molly. The danger for her soul is not in black magic. She found harmony with her magic that no mortal can achieve. That is why she can use a cellphone now, no warlock can do so.

Warlock Molly is finished. It is now Winter Lady Molly. Different story.

I'd argue that (like Black Magic) the Winter Lady mantle is fundamentally incompatible with much that we consider "humanity."  Mab was once human, too; she pretty thoroughly ISN'T anymore.  Molly is already beginning to drift that way...

She has a bunch of new power -- Winter Lady power -- that she didn't have when she was just Molly.  But she still DOES (afaik) have those same powers that lured her toward Black Magic; she is still susceptible to many of the same temptations and subject to having her own soul corrupted.  I'd argue, in fact, that Winter is liable to push her even HARDER that way.

She is beyond the reach of the White Council's laws, it's true.  But the Dresdenverse has "Laws of Magic" that are more like "laws of nature," and those still apply.  By those laws, Molly is still at risk.  I don't think "cackling villainy" is the risk anymore; rather, as her soul slips, SHE will be slipping more quickly into pure-WinterLady-ism, less Molly and more Sociopathic-Harlot-Virgin Maeve.
 
As Bob put it:  Welcome to the new Winter Lady, same as the old Winter Lady.  The Mantle will come to define who she is, how she acts... much more than anything else does (including "being Molly Carpenter" or "Having been Harry's apprentice").