Author Topic: Harry's use of Black Magic  (Read 39695 times)

Offline Mira

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Re: Harry's use of Black Magic
« Reply #150 on: February 22, 2020, 06:39:49 PM »
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The whole point of the show on the mountain was about Mab's love of Maeve.  She discovers she's been taken by the Adversary in PG and Becomes so angry that she can't speak without driving people mad. And in the end Mab still can't make herself do what must be done.  So she frees Murphy to kill her. 

At the same time she can control her emotions,  at this point anyway she isn't seeking revenge on Murphy.  I think it can go either way, but I wouldn't be shocked if it was Mab herself that had moved Murphy's trigger finger.  Contrast to Titania wild grief over Aurora even though she knows full well that she also had to be taken down.  However I think a lot of it is how she was taken down, by steel in the hands of the least of the fae..

Offline Yuillegan

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Re: Harry's use of Black Magic
« Reply #151 on: February 23, 2020, 10:42:52 AM »
Mira - I would be shocked. It would defeat the purpose of most of the book and Harry's mission. If Mab was capable emotionally of killing Maeve, she would have from the beginning. But I think she did know that Murphy would protect Dresden. Titania's rage is just the opposite of Mab's rage, which makes sense. Yeah I believe that Maeve and Sarissa were twins. I guess my reasons for believing that Sarissa and Mab wouldn't have a very normal loving relationship is that wouldn't be how Mab would do it. She is more like, "let's go clubbing and have crazy sex" or "let's see how can kill the most elk with only our hands on a hunting trip". Not traditional mother/daughter bonding activities. Also clearly the type of parent who believes you should learn through surviving.

Morris - I agree, was a powerful scene I think. Yeah, Molly in some ways has been saved by the mantle. I think she could well have gone darkside otherwise. One of Dresden's most incredible qualities is that he tries to be a good man, despite having every reason not to. I highly doubt Molly would have dealt half as well.

I think the closer to the mortal world a supernatural being or race is, the closer they emulate it. Including emotions. The White Court are a great example, as are the Fae to a point. However. Humanity are the benchmark, so it seems that no other race feels emotions the way they do and have the impact they do. No idea what to make of the Forrest People, but I would say they are somewhere in between human and Fae.
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Offline Arjan

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Re: Harry's use of Black Magic
« Reply #152 on: February 23, 2020, 12:42:56 PM »
Emotions are not typical human. Everything that has a survival instinct knows fear if it has enough intelligence to understand danger.

Magic has everything to do with emotions. Life has everything to do with emotions and magic comes from life. I think that is the reason the Sidhe are highly emotional. Maybe not the emotion we humans value most but highly emotional nonetheless.

Mab values restraint and control because she needs them.
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Offline Mira

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Re: Harry's use of Black Magic
« Reply #153 on: February 23, 2020, 01:31:36 PM »
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Mira - I would be shocked. It would defeat the purpose of most of the book and Harry's mission. If Mab was capable emotionally of killing Maeve, she would have from the beginning. But I think she did know that Murphy would protect Dresden. Titania's rage is just the opposite of Mab's rage, which makes sense. Yeah I believe that Maeve and Sarissa were twins. I guess my reasons for believing that Sarissa and Mab wouldn't have a very normal loving relationship is that wouldn't be how Mab would do it. She is more like, "let's go clubbing and have crazy sex" or "let's see how can kill the most elk with only our hands on a hunting trip". Not traditional mother/daughter bonding activities. Also clearly the type of parent who believes you should learn through surviving.

Why would you be shocked?  She ordered the hit in the first place, had her replacement ready to go, though that didn't quite work out as she had planned.  Yes, Sarissa and Mab apparently enjoyed going to the opera together, sporting events, so yeah, ordinary mother/daughter mortal things together.  The only way Murphy could have gotten her hand free from the enchanted black ice, was by Mab's hand, her hand had to be totally numb from that, not very good for grabbing anything fast, let alone aiming a gun and pulling the trigger as fast as it had to be done.  Mab moves her finger and it happened, no, Mab in the end killed her daughter.  She understood it had to be done, while she rather someone else did it, and perhaps can rationalize that Murphy did it, it was Mab who did it.  She did love Maeve, that is why she blinded herself to her antics for so so long, but an infected Maeve was another story, she had to be put down.  Mab is a true queen, she believes in duty and did as painful as it was, what had to be done because there was no choice..  It was no accident that Maeve was going on about choices just before she was shot.  She thought her mother was out of choices, she thought she had won the game of chess, she was wrong.
« Last Edit: February 23, 2020, 01:39:06 PM by Mira »

Offline Arjan

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Re: Harry's use of Black Magic
« Reply #154 on: February 23, 2020, 02:00:12 PM »
Why would you be shocked?  She ordered the hit in the first place, had her replacement ready to go, though that didn't quite work out as she had planned.  Yes, Sarissa and Mab apparently enjoyed going to the opera together, sporting events, so yeah, ordinary mother/daughter mortal things together.  The only way Murphy could have gotten her hand free from the enchanted black ice, was by Mab's hand, her hand had to be totally numb from that, not very good for grabbing anything fast, let alone aiming a gun and pulling the trigger as fast as it had to be done.  Mab moves her finger and it happened, no, Mab in the end killed her daughter.  She understood it had to be done, while she rather someone else did it, and perhaps can rationalize that Murphy did it, it was Mab who did it.  She did love Maeve, that is why she blinded herself to her antics for so so long, but an infected Maeve was another story, she had to be put down.  Mab is a true queen, she believes in duty and did as painful as it was, what had to be done because there was no choice..  It was no accident that Maeve was going on about choices just before she was shot.  She thought her mother was out of choices, she thought she had won the game of chess, she was wrong.
Mab enabled Murphy. She melted the ice which was not normal ice anyway. There were no complains about numbness anyway.

I do not think Mab could have directed Karen's hand, there was no deal or debt between them strong enough for that. Mab could only hurt Harry because of that deal.

There was also no complaint about ice damage afterwards. I do not think the ice made her numb at all.
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Offline Mira

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Re: Harry's use of Black Magic
« Reply #155 on: February 23, 2020, 04:18:38 PM »
Mab enabled Murphy. She melted the ice which was not normal ice anyway. There were no complains about numbness anyway.

I do not think Mab could have directed Karen's hand, there was no deal or debt between them strong enough for that. Mab could only hurt Harry because of that deal.

There was also no complaint about ice damage afterwards. I do not think the ice made her numb at all.

  No deal was needed,  Mab had it all planned out, Murphy was just part of the gun or tool that killed Maeve..   You are mistaken as far as thinking any kind of deal between Mab and Murphy would have hurt Harry.. On the contrary, if Murphy had bargained to kill Maeve, or if Mab felt it would put her in debt to Murphy, the first thing Murphy would ask for is Harry's freedom.   Mab's plans did backfire a little as far as she wanted Sarissa and not Molly to be her Winter Lady.  Mab also has shown if she wants to manipulate a mortal's hand she can, remember Harry's hand on the mail spike in Summer Knight?  Now I realize she had bought Harry's debt from Lea, so she could inflict harm on him.. However no harm was inflicted on Murphy,  she was merely part of the weapon that Maeve had left lying around because she thought she had won, and Mab used it like any other pawn...  Why do you think Harry asked her if it was hard to kill her daughter?  Why do you think Murphy was a bit confused after it happened by asking, "what just happened?"  I don't think she'd react quite that way if it was her deliberately shooting Maeve.

Offline Arjan

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Re: Harry's use of Black Magic
« Reply #156 on: February 23, 2020, 04:39:56 PM »
Mab can not just take over any mortal and make her do something. When Lea healed Harry in grave peril it was to show him that she had power over him because of his debt. Mab would and could not control Murphy in any way. She could only create the circumstances for her to act by melting the ice bindings.

Murphy knee what she was doing and she handled out of reflex trained most of her life. The confusion was about what happened to Molly and what was the meaning of everything that happened. I do not think the freezing harmed or numbed her al all.
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Offline Mira

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Re: Harry's use of Black Magic
« Reply #157 on: February 23, 2020, 05:37:19 PM »
Mab can not just take over any mortal and make her do something. When Lea healed Harry in grave peril it was to show him that she had power over him because of his debt. Mab would and could not control Murphy in any way. She could only create the circumstances for her to act by melting the ice bindings.

Murphy knee what she was doing and she handled out of reflex trained most of her life. The confusion was about what happened to Molly and what was the meaning of everything that happened. I do not think the freezing harmed or numbed her al all.

 Wouldn't have happened at all without Mab, Harry knew something was up, Mab moved her finger, suddenly Murphy's hand was loose and she shot, she was merely a tool. 

Offline Arjan

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Re: Harry's use of Black Magic
« Reply #158 on: February 23, 2020, 06:13:13 PM »
Wouldn't have happened at all without Mab, Harry knew something was up, Mab moved her finger, suddenly Murphy's hand was loose and she shot, she was merely a tool.
Mab would not agree. Karen was not in Mab’s service. Mab just made it accidentally possible for Karen to do what she wanted to do anyway by removing bounds her daughter should not have placed anyway.
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Offline didymos

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Re: Harry's use of Black Magic
« Reply #159 on: February 23, 2020, 07:17:51 PM »
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Karrin’s hands flew out from behind her back in a shower of broken chips of black ice. She tore her little holdout gun from a concealed ankle holster.
 “No!” I shouted.
Two shots rang out, almost simultaneously.
Something hissed spitefully past my ear. A neat, round black hole appeared just to the side of Maeve’s nose, at the fine line of her cheekbone.

Butcher, Jim. Cold Days (The Dresden Files, Book 14) (p. 506). Penguin Publishing Group. Kindle Edition.

I'm sure Karrin would have mentioned that her hands moved by themselves when Harry spoke to her afterwards. She didn't.  As to the "What just happened?", Karrin was referring to the weird light that flew out of Maeve and went into Molly, rendering her unconscious:

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“Harry,” Karrin said. “What just happened? Is Molly all right?

Butcher, Jim. Cold Days (The Dresden Files, Book 14) (p. 507). Penguin Publishing Group. Kindle Edition.

« Last Edit: February 23, 2020, 07:26:20 PM by didymos »

Offline Yuillegan

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Re: Harry's use of Black Magic
« Reply #160 on: February 23, 2020, 11:27:43 PM »
Mira, I appreciate the theory. I do. But it isn't fact, at least not yet. It doesn't say or give any indication in the text that Mab controlled Murphy in that scene, in that moment. And as far as I am aware there is no WOJ to support it either.

I do feel Jim could have explained better why after everyone being frozen there was no numbness and no damage to the firearm. But Arjan's explanation is as good as any here - it could well have been magical ice, or perhaps Mab removed the numbness.

Arjan is right -In Summer Knight Mab says this when controlling Dresden to make him stab himself with a letter opener
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"Wizard, you know as well as I. Were you not bound to me, I would have no such power over you." At that moment, most of what I knew was that my hand hurt, but some dim part of me realized she was telling the truth. Faeries don't just get to ride in and play puppet master. You have to let them in. I'd let my godmother, Lea, in years before, when I was younger, dumber.
Summer Knight, ch 2, pg 20

And Bob explains it:
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I frowned. "Hang on a minute. You mean that the Queens can't personally gun down anyone who isn't in their Court?"
"Not unless the target does something stupid like make an open-ended bargain without even trying to
trade a baby for—"
"Off topic, Bob. Do I or don't I have to worry about getting killed this time around?"
"Of course you do," Bob said in a cheerful tone. "It just means that the Queen isn't allowed to actually, personally end your life. They could, however, trick you into walking into quicksand and watch you drown, turn you into a stag and set the hounds after you, bind you into an enchanted sleep for a few hundred years, that kind of thing."
Summer Knight, ch 10, pg80

Queens can't just come in and play puppet master, they need a channel. A specific type of bargain with the person. Murphy didn't have that, so no possible way Mab could have done it - unless she made a bargain with Murphy off screen. But I really highly doubt it. Especially since as Lea points out to Michael, once they hold a Sword of the Cross they can shatter a compact easily enough. So it wouldn't be a sound long-term deal.

The thing is that Mab didn't need to pull the trigger anyway. She gave Murphy the freedom to act, she knew Murphy would do it. It would have been redundant.

The whole reason I would have been shocked, as I said, would be that it invalidates most of the story and Harry's mission. While she was pragmatic enough to accept she had to order her daughter's death, she couldn't be the one to plunge the knife in herself. She always has had the power but couldn't actually do it herself. Mother Winter confirms this when she says Mab is too much the romantic. Which probably tells you that if Mother Winter wanted to kill a Queen, they would just die.

As for Sarissa and Mab's hang outs, I always put that less down to bonding (at least on Mab's end) and more her learning about mortals. But I can understand it might not be that way, or that people might not see it like that. Mab certainly wouldn't be the type to hug or say I love you, so I suspect the closest she could do was spend time with her daughters and teach them as best she could. As Leah points out, that is a incredible gift "the dissemination of power from one generation to the next" which when you consider what Mab can teach them...is invaluable. I do imagine Maeve was the daughter who got the harsher training, which made her tougher (as befit her role, Mab wanted her daughter to be successful/survive - in her eyes the best thing she could do for her...talk about being cruel to be kind...). I expect she resented that Sarissa got the much softer and perhaps more enjoyable treatment (and freedom, as morris points out). But I don't think Sarissa was the favorite initially necessarily. Mab had to treat each child differently, based on their circumstances. Like most parents, Mab quite probably thought she was doing the best she could by them.
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Offline Mira

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Re: Harry's use of Black Magic
« Reply #161 on: February 23, 2020, 11:38:27 PM »
Mab would not agree. Karen was not in Mab’s service. Mab just made it accidentally possible for Karen to do what she wanted to do anyway by removing bounds her daughter should not have placed anyway.

That was no accident...  Lily was dead so her mantle went to Sarissa... Maeve didn't know about Molly, but Mab did... 
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I'm sure Karrin would have mentioned that her hands moved by themselves when Harry spoke to her afterwards. She didn't.  As to the "What just happened?", Karrin was referring to the weird light that flew out of Maeve and went into Molly, rendering her unconscious:


Would she?  She had just witness what happened when Lily died and her mantle moved to Sarissa..

If it wasn't Mab who killed Maeve, why did Harry ask her this question?
page 503 Cold Days..
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"Was it hard for you to kill Maeve?

He didn't ask if it was hard for her to watch Murphy do it... Nor did he ask if was hard to turn Murphy loose so she could accidently kill Maeve..  It was a direct question to Mab, "Was it hard for you to kill Maeve?"

  It was Halloween, so maybe the rules change for Queens wanting to kill their daughters that need killing?  Maybe Mab used a loop hole, [something she is good at by the way and why you do not
bargain with the Fae] if she manipulated Murphy's hands, technically it wasn't her...  Harry knows
who killed Maeve, that is who he addressed his question to,  Mab.. I repeat, "Was it hard for you to kill Maeve?"

« Last Edit: February 23, 2020, 11:50:17 PM by Mira »

Offline Yuillegan

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Re: Harry's use of Black Magic
« Reply #162 on: February 24, 2020, 12:19:03 AM »
I think you're reading that a bit literally.

If you order someone's death, you a still guilty of conspiracy to murder. Just because you don't pull the trigger yourself doesn't make that any less terrible.

Jim's writing could have been clearer I suppose. He could have written "Was it hard for you to allow Maeve to be killed?". Which would have been more clear and more obvious. But writing isn't really about that. It is much more about being real. When you construct dialogue it is just as much for the benefit of the reader to understand it logically as to connect to them, emotionally. Readers won't believe a scene if the dialogue doesn't feel natural. You'll also notice that Mab doesn't answer that question directly. She answers "I was mortal once, you know". While she is implying that she still feels enough of her old mortal self to care, to feel loss and grief and rage and pain, she doesn't actually agree that she pulled the trigger. So if we take her literally, and read sentences that literally, then you certainly cannot say she did kill Maeve.

In fact Harry initially asks "Was it hard for you? Tonight?" and she just can't answer. He then says "“Even tonight, with everything going to hell, you couldn’t hurt her,” . Which to me says implies that despite it all, she couldn't be the one to pull the trigger herself. She still needed an agent to act for her. Harry was her initial agent and just like with Aurora, his agent acted for him. I suppose you could think of it as Harry being Mab's weapon, and Murphy being his.
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Offline morriswalters

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Re: Harry's use of Black Magic
« Reply #163 on: February 24, 2020, 01:44:14 AM »
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If it wasn't Mab who killed Maeve, why did Harry ask her this question?
Of course Mab killed Maeve.  She sent her Knight to carry out her will as his Queen. You were given the Mab's law in the first chapter.
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Blood may not be spilled upon the floor of the Court without the Queens express command.
Maeve died in the first chapter.  She just didn't quit breathing until there on Demonreach.

Offline Arjan

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Re: Harry's use of Black Magic
« Reply #164 on: February 24, 2020, 07:39:10 AM »
Of course Mab killed Maeve.  She sent her Knight to carry out her will as his Queen. You were given the Mab's law in the first chapter.Maeve died in the first chapter.  She just didn't quit breathing until there on Demonreach.
It is not about that. Mab ordered, manipulated, enabled.

But she did not use Karen as a puppet. She can not.
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