Author Topic: Harry's use of Black Magic  (Read 39680 times)

Offline didymos

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Re: Harry's use of Black Magic
« Reply #105 on: February 19, 2020, 07:17:15 PM »
The gatekeeper is older than some immortals. It seems that using a lot of magic keeps you young.

Harry is older than some immortals.  Lily for instance, when she was still alive. There are likely a ton of young immortals, what with changelings choosing on a regular basis. 

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Offline Mira

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Re: Harry's use of Black Magic
« Reply #106 on: February 19, 2020, 09:46:27 PM »
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Harry is older than some immortals.  Lily for instance, when she was still alive. There are likely a ton of young immortals, what with changelings choosing on a regular basis.

  Harry was older than Lily when she was a young mortal..  She was still a young mortal when she got roped into becoming an immortal.  So yeah, in that sense he was older than her immortal self... However she still could be killed and she was, she died very young.

Offline Arjan

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Re: Harry's use of Black Magic
« Reply #107 on: February 19, 2020, 09:56:29 PM »
Harry is older than some immortals.  Lily for instance, when she was still alive. There are likely a ton of young immortals, what with changelings choosing on a regular basis. 
Changelings who choose get eternal youth but they are not immortal. They get killed on a regular basis and do not reform like the queens do.
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That is your definition. It depends how you look at it. You could argue that immortals are simply mortals who prolong their life and youth by handling big amounts of magic just like wizards do on a smaller scale. Something in principle available to all magically gifted humans. It has been suggested that they can set aside that magic as well. Do they then become human again or were they human all along?

We see the story from the point of view of a wizard who wants to be a human and sees himself as different from the so called immortals but with the winter mantle he is already one step up and some people may question his humanity. Point of view is important.

You can also argue that the whole story about them being better than human, being super human is just propaganda so that they can feel better than us. We don't have to buy into that. They are certainly more powerfull than we and they live longer but biologically they are just human.
« Last Edit: February 19, 2020, 09:59:07 PM by Arjan »
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Offline didymos

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Re: Harry's use of Black Magic
« Reply #108 on: February 19, 2020, 11:47:27 PM »
Changelings who choose get eternal youth but they are not immortal. They get killed on a regular basis and do not reform like the queens do.

Says who? I'm not aware of any WOJ about that.

Offline g33k

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Re: Harry's use of Black Magic
« Reply #109 on: February 20, 2020, 12:21:33 AM »
Says who? I'm not aware of any WOJ about that.

It's pretty strongly inferred by Bob in Cold Days discussing specific individuals as immortals and un-killable (except (revealed nervously) in specific circumstances).  It it had applied to all the fae, or even all the sidhe, I think it would have come out during that conversation.

Plus, we don't see folks getting fallout from the returns of their prior kills.

I'm pretty sure that "Unaging" or "ever-young" isn't as un-killable as the Queens & Kings and old Gods and other "immortals."

But it isn't explicitly stated, that I know of.

Offline didymos

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Re: Harry's use of Black Magic
« Reply #110 on: February 20, 2020, 01:54:21 AM »
It's pretty strongly inferred by Bob in Cold Days discussing specific individuals as immortals and un-killable (except (revealed nervously) in specific circumstances).  It it had applied to all the fae, or even all the sidhe, I think it would have come out during that conversation.

Yeah, re-reading that bit, it is pretty heavily implied that it applies only to big deal Mantle-holders. This of course raises the question as to how much power is required to render someone an unkillable-except-at-conjunctions immortal.

Offline morriswalters

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Re: Harry's use of Black Magic
« Reply #111 on: February 20, 2020, 03:26:18 AM »
The difference between mortals and Molly is that Molly may die, mortals will die.  That makes her inhuman. And in terms of Black Magic, Maeve never killed anyone directly with magic, nor have the Queens.  Nor I believe human or Fae, except Harry and his happy go lucky family. I'm being more certain here than I actually am, but I don't remember any case.

Offline Arjan

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Re: Harry's use of Black Magic
« Reply #112 on: February 20, 2020, 06:15:50 AM »
The difference between mortals and Molly is that Molly may die, mortals will die.  That makes her inhuman. And in terms of Black Magic, Maeve never killed anyone directly with magic, nor have the Queens.  Nor I believe human or Fae, except Harry and his happy go lucky family. I'm being more certain here than I actually am, but I don't remember any case.
Bob says so in Summer Knight:
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I frowned. "Hang on a minute. You mean that the Queens can't personally gun down anyone who isn't in their Court?"

"Not unless the target does something stupid like make an open-ended bargain without even trying to trade a baby for-"
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Offline Yuillegan

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Re: Harry's use of Black Magic
« Reply #113 on: February 20, 2020, 08:06:14 AM »
Bob heavily implies that it is the MANTLE that is immortal, not the wearer. So the mantle reforms, and the wearer with it normally. On Halloween (and in other highly specific circumstances) the mantle doesn't protect the wearer, so they die and the mantle can change. But because it is immortal, that is why it ends up shaping the wearer. I suspect that if the wearer were to reject the mantle, then the mantle might not even protect them forever. Molly will eventually end up much the same as Maeve, as that is what the mantle tries to do. Unless Molly can change the mantle or rid herself of the mantle, she won't BE Molly forever. That much has been said in different ways throughout the series.

Think of it like the office of the President. The President, as an office, is an idea. That is not easily destroyed. The occupant, however, is very much vulnerable. It is not the occupant who has power, but the position. But that power is next to useless unless there is an occupant to direct it. We always respect the position (as a rule), but often not the occupant (depending on our various leanings and values). In psychology, this is called authority or social power (Positional Power). It's seen as legitimate by society (generally, although not always as sometimes Monachs and Leaders are de-powered by society for various reasons, often because there is too much concentration in a single role).

Everyone has a degree of Personal Power, which is that which you have in you. It comes from the physical strength of your body and from your personality, your charisma etc. Sometimes this is split between two ideas: Referent Power and Personal Power, with Referent Power referring to interpersonal skills and ability and Personal mostly referring to the natural physical abilities.

Then there is Expert Power, that which is granted by knowledge and experience and skill in a field or fields. We respect the great masters of sport, art and academia etc because we can see not only how much natural talent they may have, but also how much they have learned about their area and how much skill they have built up. We trust and respect and often admire these people because they are the gatekeepers and the pioneers, those at the pinnacle.

Reward Power is another type, that mostly depends on the ability of the individual to give or withhold valued (generally material) rewards. Sometimes this is split between Reward Power and Coercive Power, with Reward merely referring to the ability to give and Coercive referring to the ability to withhold or even disadvantage the receiver.

In any case, immortals in series are not the same beings as the rest. They mostly cannot be killed and will not die of old age. Whilst there are likely many supernatural beings that are extremely long-lived, and perhaps many cannot die of old age or disease, they can be killed with force. Immortals are a different category. You can atomize them and cast their dust upon the universe but they always reform. This is heavily implied to be because of mantles, but not necessarily. We don't yet know how Angels or Fallen or others fit into this.

When the supernatural in the series refers to Mortals, they are referring to beings with Free Will. They don't mean dogs and cats, generally speaking they mostly mean human beings. There is a good argument to be said that the Forest and Mountain People (like River Shoulders and the Genoskwa) are actually in this category, not in the least because they can pick up a coin or perhaps a sword. I would say all scions and Changellings (pre-change) and beings like Thomas probably are in that category (although not his demon).

Whilst Vampires and most Faeries are not immortals, they do appear to not die of old age or regular mortal problems. It clearly takes either crazy amounts of power and/or a really long time to become immortal. A curious case are Fae that are "Eldest". The title passes on to the next oldest when the previous one dies, but the being (and it's power) seems to pass away. My guess is that it is the barest sort of mantle, but not really powerful enough to be significant. But with added power, and perhaps time, would become a real deal. The difference with a Queen, let's say, is that they're mantle makes the office-holder immortal too. The only exception we have seen is the Knights, and I suspect that is because it is built especially to NOT make the holder Immortal, because that would make the position useless for it's purposes.

The Knight IS the Queens (all 3, and perhaps all 6) ability to really affect the mortal world in a meaningful way (i.e. Choice).

Molly is no longer really going to be worried about Black Magic taint, as she isn't really human anymore. She could possibly Choose to not be a Queen, but I suspect not, which means she is Choosing to sacrifice her Free Will. Not all at once, but over time.

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Offline Arjan

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Re: Harry's use of Black Magic
« Reply #114 on: February 20, 2020, 08:19:21 AM »
Maeve was atypical. Molly probably won’t end like that.
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Offline Yuillegan

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Re: Harry's use of Black Magic
« Reply #115 on: February 20, 2020, 11:06:11 AM »
How was Maeve atypical? What do you base that on? Whilst she did become infected and such, she actually left her role the same way as some Queens before her - feet first. If anything, she is typical.

Molly won't end like what exactly? Death? Or won't become the Winter Lady? Because, I hate to tell you, she probably will. She is darker than Dresden, she likes her power.

And as has been said multiple times over, the Mantle eventually shapes the occupant to look like the previous one, because they are imitating the Mantle. Lilly would have eventually been near indistinguishable from Aurora, eventually. Look up Dresden's interactions with Lilly post Summer Knight. Jim spells it out.
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Offline Mira

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Re: Harry's use of Black Magic
« Reply #116 on: February 20, 2020, 12:51:30 PM »


   The Fae can be killed,  Aurora was killed by steel box knives, Maeve, by a bullet, Lily, by a bullet.
Jim is going by the Tolkien rule for elves, they are basically immortal but they can be killed by violence.

Offline Arjan

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Re: Harry's use of Black Magic
« Reply #117 on: February 20, 2020, 02:01:47 PM »
How was Maeve atypical? What do you base that on? Whilst she did become infected and such, she actually left her role the same way as some Queens before her - feet first. If anything, she is typical.

Molly won't end like what exactly? Death? Or won't become the Winter Lady? Because, I hate to tell you, she probably will. She is darker than Dresden, she likes her power.

And as has been said multiple times over, the Mantle eventually shapes the occupant to look like the previous one, because they are imitating the Mantle. Lilly would have eventually been near indistinguishable from Aurora, eventually. Look up Dresden's interactions with Lilly post Summer Knight. Jim spells it out.
Maeve did not do her job for more than a century. She was not that old as a queen so I think one of the reasons she could make a deal with nemesis is that her whole personality under the mantle was intact.

She was resisting her mantle. See also Sarissa’s remark about her boyfriends in Cold Days. That deal with nemesis did not come out of thin air.

Besides I do not think Bob is completely correct here. He is somewhat pessimistic just like he thought Harry’s conversion to a monster would be fast and inevitable. Mother summer did not agree. We do not have the complete picture but it is far more complicated than Bob tells us.
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Offline Mira

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Re: Harry's use of Black Magic
« Reply #118 on: February 20, 2020, 02:41:00 PM »
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Besides I do not think Bob is completely correct here. He is somewhat pessimistic just like he thought Harry’s conversion to a monster would be fast and inevitable. Mother summer did not agree. We do not have the complete picture but it is far more complicated than Bob tells us.

We also have to consider Bob's point of view, he and Mab have issues, which may color his opinion on matters concerning the mantles of both Summer and Winter Courts.  There are things that Bob may know about but not have understanding of.  Harry says that in Cold Days concerning the soul and soul fire when Mother Winter had him pinned to the ground and he used it to throw her off. 
page 317 Cold Days
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Bob is brilliant, but there are some things he just doesn't get.  His definition was a good place to get started, but it was also something that was perhaps too comfortably quantifiable.

In other words Bob may be able to define what the mantles are, say even what they do and mostly how they affect the holder, but not everything.   The results are not always the same, a lot depends on the strength of personality and will of the holder,  Harry as opposed to Slate, Lily as opposed to Aurora, Maeve as opposed to Molly, this is beyond Bob's expertise.

Offline didymos

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Re: Harry's use of Black Magic
« Reply #119 on: February 20, 2020, 03:07:52 PM »
The Fae can be killed,  Aurora was killed by steel box knives, Maeve, by a bullet, Lily, by a bullet.
Jim is going by the Tolkien rule for elves, they are basically immortal but they can be killed by violence.

Only at certain times/places, according to Cold Days:

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“Right, then!” Bob said. “The only way to kill an immortal is at certain specific places.”
 “And you know one? Where?”
 “Hah, already you’re making a human assumption. There are more than three dimensions, Harry. Not all places are in space. Some of them are places in time. They’re called conjunctions.”

Otherwise...:

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“Maeve’s an immortal, Harry. One of the least of the immortals, maybe, but immortal all the same. Chop her up if you want to. Burn her. Scatter her ashes to the winds. But it won’t kill her. She’ll be back. Maybe in months, maybe years, but you can’t just kill her. She’s the Winter Lady.”

« Last Edit: February 20, 2020, 03:09:41 PM by didymos »