Peace talks excerpt indications

[Arjan]

Yup, I'd call that successful manipulation on Susan's part.

Except that she was quite clear about what she wanted and why. Telling the truth was enough. Harry did not need much manipulation anyway. There were no hidden tricks and subtle lies to influence Harry.  I see no manipulation here.

[Mira]

Except that she was quite clear about what she wanted and why. Telling the truth was enough. Harry did not need much manipulation anyway. There were no hidden tricks and subtle lies to influence Harry.  I see no manipulation here.

   In my opinion it was still manipulation, open manipulation to be sure, but that is what it was. 

[Arjan]

   In my opinion it was still manipulation, open manipulation to be sure, but that is what it was.

Susan did not manipulate Harry emotionally or otherwise it was already there as soon as the news reached him befor she was even in Chicago.

[Bad Alias]

If he had said it to get her to strike, it would have been a dick move.. But he didn't.

Why did he say it?

[Mira]

Why did he say it?

  Maybe as a hope that it wouldn't hurt her, Lea had said she was protected.  It is something said
in the stress of the moment and really made no difference.   Once Martin confessed that he had told the Red King where to find her daughter, her rage did the rest.   If Martin's long game was to rid the
world of the Red Court he succeeded, in the end he was the master manipulator.

[didymos]

  Maybe as a hope that it wouldn't hurt her, Lea had said she was protected. 

He knew she wasn't protected from steel. He had no hope that she was:

His knife can’t hurt you, I thought, though I knew damned well that no faerie magic could blithely ignore the touch of steel.

Butcher, Jim. Changes (The Dresden Files, Book 12) (p. 517). Penguin Publishing Group. Kindle Edition.

[Mira]

He knew she wasn't protected from steel. He had no hope that she was:

   No one is arguing that point, the point is it made no difference to the outcome.  Susan didn't attack Martin because she thought she was protected from steel.

[g33k]

  In my opinion it was still manipulation, open manipulation to be sure, but that is what it was.

It was... manipulation-adjacent?

I mean, it was just telling the truth.  Harry being Harry, she didn't have to "spin it" or "manipulate" Harry in any active fashion...

I mean:  tell a guy (with a MAJOR white-knight-complex AND parent/orphan issues) that he's a Daddy and his most-hated (and known child-murdering) enemies have kidnapped his daughter for nefarious purpose...

"Just the facts, ma'am."

It's not "manipulating" the dyamite to light it's fuse, but a consequence DOES obviously follow one from the other.

We could argue -- and maybe should -- that even "un-spun facts" can be de facto "manipulation" in some circumstances... such as those, if any!

Susan took away Harry's choice, in that phone call, every bit as much as Harry took hers, when he made her realize that Martin was behind Maggie's kidnapping.

[Mira]

Susan took away Harry's choice, in that phone call, every bit as much as Harry took hers, when he made her realize that Martin was behind Maggie's kidnapping.

Yes.   It is also interesting that she went to him for help with little Maggie after keeping the knowledge that she had even existed from him for the past six years.  Her excuse?  Harry would have been a danger to their child.  She put a real guilt trip on him.

[Arjan]

Yes.   It is also interesting that she went to him for help with little Maggie after keeping the knowledge that she had even existed from him for the past six years.  Her excuse?  Harry would have been a danger to their child.  She put a real guilt trip on him.

Who else could she go for help? She should have involved Harry earlier, not never.

I do not see some clever manipulation going on, just flawed individuals making errors in a difficult situation. Harry would have been a danger but she was a danger too.

And Susan did not put a guilt trip on Harry. Harry was not feeling guilt about the situation. He correctly identified Susan’s guilt in hiding the child from him but choose not to dwell on it because they both shared the overwhelming desire to save their daughter. There were dangerous emotions but that were emotions they shared. No clever manipulation going on.

They both would manipulate to save their daughter, no doubt about that but really until that stuff with Martin’s dagger there was no need for it.

[Bad Alias]

   No one is arguing that point, the point is it made no difference to the outcome.  Susan didn't attack Martin because she thought she was protected from steel.

You are arguing that point. Harry lied to Susan for a reason. Your saying he didn't lie to her and that he didn't intend to push her to attack. I ask again, why did he say it? The only reason I can see is because she didn't attack when he accused Martin.

[Mira]

And Susan did not put a guilt trip on Harry. Harry was not feeling guilt about the situation. He correctly identified Susan’s guilt in hiding the child from him but choose not to dwell on it because they both shared the overwhelming desire to save their daughter. There were dangerous emotions but that were emotions they shared. No clever manipulation going on.

  Yes, she did, she did it to justify not telling him he was a father.

Susan's eyes hardened.  "How many people have gotten killed around you, Harry?  How many hurt?"  She raked her fingers through her hair.  "For God's sake.  You said yourself that your apartment has been under attack.  Would that have gone any better if you'd had a toddler to watch over?'

That is a guilt trip my friend,  implying that he wouldn't have enough sense to even try to make
a safe home for a child.  At the same time deflecting her own feelings of guilt because of what had happened to little Maggie.

You are arguing that point. Harry lied to Susan for a reason. Your saying he didn't lie to her and that he didn't intend to push her to attack. I ask again, why did he say it? The only reason I can see is because she didn't attack when he accused Martin.

Um, credit Lea with the lie,  she is the one who put the cloak on her and enforced the markings on her then shot a bullet at her and it didn't hurt her.   Harry repeated that, though he had serious doubts about how effective Fae magic would be against steel.  However who knows?  Never was tested, was it?  He didn't need to tell her that the knife wouldn't hurt her to get her to attack.  All he had to do was get her to ask Martin the fatal question as to how her daughter was where she was about to be slaughtered.   Point is, the bit about whether or not the knife would hurt her was totally irrelevant, Susan wasn't worried about her safety at that point. 

[g33k]

... Um, credit Lea with the lie,  she is the one who put the cloak on her and enforced the markings on her then shot a bullet at her and it didn't hurt her.

Susan was supernatural-savvy enough -- by this time -- to know about faeries & iron.  She'd have known the (lead) bullet would be fully-resisted by the faerie magic, but iron/steel weaponry would not be.

An excellent demonstration, though, of just how powerful Lea's magic was, if not facing iron!

... Harry repeated that, though he had serious doubts about how effective Fae magic would be against steel.

No, Harry specifically claimed Martin's (steel) knife wouldn't hurt Susan, in that moment.  He wasn't alleging any general/overall safety, just the one instance... and presenting as a "fact" something he knew was NOT a fact:  faerie magic cannot blithely ignore iron.  Not even Queen Mab's magic at Arctis Tor, the heart of Winter's power; overwhelmingly more power than Winterfae magic at the heart of the Red Court's power, in front of the Red King and the LoON's!

... Point is, the bit about whether or not the knife would hurt her was totally irrelevant, Susan wasn't worried about her safety at that point.

No.

"Susan would have attacked anyhow, so Harry's off the hook for any/all lies trying to get her to attack" is your logic, here.

No.

Harry was still trying to manipulate her into the attack.  He lied to her, and the objective of that lie was to get her to attack.

I agree that he didn't need to -- the only reason he even had TIME for this lie was that Susan was processing a moment of shock and realizing the truth, things were finally falling into place about Martin as she saw the depths of his betrayal.  Once her gut -- that had trusted Martin a few moments before -- finally "got the memo" about Martin's real role, her attack was a foregone conclusion.

That does not excuse Harry the lie, the intention to manipulate Susan into attacking.  Missing the kill-shot when you attempt to murder someone is still assault with a deadly weapon; attempted rape is still sexual assault; etc.

Just as Susan "only needed to tell the truth" to manipulate Harry to Do Anything to rescue Maggie... Harry "only needed to tell the truth" to manipulate Susan to kill Martin and fully-Turn, thus providing an alternate bloodline for the Curse to destroy.

Susan intentionally set Harry up, put him at extraordinarily-dire risk.

Harry intentionally killed her.
 

[Mira]

Harry was still trying to manipulate her into the attack.  He lied to her, and the objective of that lie was to get her to attack.

Pretty far down the list on what did get her to attack...  These "moral" arguments are nice, but death
was imminent for their little girl.  Susan wasn't going to survive as she was in any case, you don't think she wouldn't have lost it once the Red King cut little Maggie's throat, then Harry and Eb died?  Harry was grasping at straws, Susan was the last one he had left.   I can buy
all the moral arguments if this was Harry's plan all along to defeat the Red King, but it wasn't.

Harry was still trying to manipulate her into the attack.  He lied to her, and the objective of that lie was to get her to attack.

But it didn't work, so it is irrelevant, what worked was the truth.. Getting Susan to ask the fatal question to Martin, was he behind the situation where her baby is about to get her throat cut?  When Martin confirmed that he was,  then she lost it.   Harry didn't "murder" her because he lied in the heat of the moment that she was protected by Fae magic, that wasn't even an effective argument.

[Arjan]

  Yes, she did, she did it to justify not telling him he was a father.

That is a guilt trip my friend,  implying that he wouldn't have enough sense to even try to make
a safe home for a child.  At the same time deflecting her own feelings of guilt because of what had happened to little Maggie. Um, credit Lea with the lie,  she is the one who put the cloak on her and enforced the markings on her then shot a bullet at her and it didn't hurt her.   Harry repeated that, though he had serious doubts about how effective Fae magic would be against steel.  However who knows?  Never was tested, was it?  He didn't need to tell her that the knife wouldn't hurt her to get her to attack.  All he had to do was get her to ask Martin the fatal question as to how her daughter was where she was about to be slaughtered.   Point is, the bit about whether or not the knife would hurt her was totally irrelevant, Susan wasn't worried about her safety at that point.

Susan tried to defend her actions and/ or explain why she did so. It would have been strange if she did not and I have no reason to believe that she lied especially because Harry made it clear what he thought about it and that did not change. This was not a clever manipulative ploy, it was just what you can expect from someone whose past acts are questioned.

Again no clever manipulation of Harry or an exploitation of Harry’s guilt. Just a cry for help. Harry and Susan both make everything highly emotionally charged but you can blame both of them for that. Susan is probably the one feeling guilt for hiding Maggie the way she did.