Denarian Shadows

[morriswalters]

It seems obvious to me that having a shadow taken out by an outsider psychic attack is a black swan event.  And if the Church didn't know, neither apparently, did Nicodemus.

[g33k]

It seems obvious to me that having a shadow taken out by an outsider psychic attack is a black swan event.  And if the Church didn't know, neither apparently, did Nicodemus.

Indeed.  Not even Anduriel saw that possibility... which is really saying something!

But note that Lash chose, ultimately, to become free of Lasciel.  Yes, the Outsider attack "killed" her; but specifically because she had ALREADY become something more/other than a mere "shadow".  That is what let her "take the bullet," arranging for virtually all of the attack to hit the parts of Harry that were Lash-imprint, and leaving Harry's own psyche largely undamaged.

Lash took HERSELF out of Fallen-Shadow-dom.  She was no longer serving Lasciel, by her own choice.  It looks very likely, given the way events unfolded, that Lash would have made the same choice (to no longer serve Lasciel) very shortly, even if the Outsiders hadn't been an existential threat.

I think that Jim -- for Doylist reasons -- had to NOT let Lash survive reforming, though:  she knows too much, and would reveal too much to Harry, too soon.

[morriswalters]

I think Jim wanted to give Harry access to Angelic magic through Bonea.  Either Merlin(the original) is the biggest McGuffin you will see, or he got access to magic he shouldn't have had.  Maybe Odin gave it to him.  But Angelic magic would be capable of holding dark gods and other crappy individuals.  We know they practice magic because Lash tells Harry about the wards on the Carpenter's safe room.   And Bonea would know at least some of that Angelic magic. Also Bonea would know what it means to be a Starborn, since we know that Lash did.  Top that with the fact that Lasciel(the fallen) is trapped in Hades domain with no shadow to summon her back.  Unless some of your theory comes to pass.

[g33k]

... And Bonea would know at least some of that Angelic magic. Also Bonea would know what it means to be a Starborn, since we know that Lash did...

I don't think we know that Bonea knows everything Lash knew, let alone everything Lasciel knew.

In fact, I'm pretty sure the human brain (which is the material Lash had to work with) isn't CAPABLE of knowing everything an Angel knows, so Lasciel's Shadow didn't (couldn't!) know everything Lasciel knew.  I wouldn't want to estimate it as a percentage or fraction, but I suspect that shadows have VASTLY less info than their Fallen, a tiny fraction rather than a substantive part.

Also, I suspect that the Fallen can probably CHOOSE what info to imprint into a given Shadow -- THIS one will know more about combat and other direct sorts of conflict; THAT one will know more about social stuff and "soft power;" etc).  I presume the Shadow given to Dresden was stuffed with esoteric knowledge, magical secrets, etc... y'know, the stuff to best tempt Harry with    .

I expect that Bonea has some subset of Lash's information, what Lash was able to arrange in extremis, in the scant moments available.

I presume Lash was prioritizing what would be most useful to Harry (Lash has a very hard-nosed & practical sense of "useful"), agonizing over what would survive where within his mind, which things she'd leave out, which pieces she would buttress and protect, what would likely be blasted to uselessness... desperately working to give Harry the best odds she could, in the moments before the blast arrived.  Very cinematic/heroic/tragic stuff!

She died doing the right thing.

Plus, that limited-info gives Jim the excuse he needs to have Bonea not be the Deus Ex Spiritus solution.

It remains to be seen what she knows, of course... which details are / aren't preserved... whether everything is "on tap" for immediate disclosure... whether there are layers hidden away (like BlueEye Bob inside OrangeEye Bob)... maybe even Lash herself? ... etc ...

... Top that with the fact that Lasciel(the fallen) is trapped in Hades domain with no shadow to summon her back.  Unless some of your theory comes to pass.

Remember how Nic came through after everyone else?  FAST.

Nic got Lasciel's coin from the vault, and he got Ursiel's from the icefield; that's WHY he was so late at the gate (we already know he could move really, really fast).

Not even gonna call this'un a "WAG," I think it's so much an odds-on likelihood as to approach certainty.  We already have WoJ that Lasciel is making another appearance... and Lash too, iirc.
 

[morriswalters]

Leave neurology out of it. The human brain couldn't hold Lash. Contrary to what Jim says you use all of your brain.  And you can be overloaded.  For the purpose of the story Bonea can be whatever moves the narrative forward.  The Archive holds all the information generated by the human race, and she was a little girl at her first introduction.  So I'm gonna say that capacity of the human brain doesn't matter.  If Bonea doesn't bring something to the story then I fail to see the point.

However I don't know how serious I am.  And at the rate Jim is writing I won't find out.  For me the story ended at Cold Days.

[Bad Alias]

We already have WoJ that Lasciel is making another appearance... and Lash too, iirc.

Haven't heard either of those.

I don't think Lash had the ability to choose Bonea's qualities. One thing that limits her helpfulness is she doesn't understand her knowledge, so she wouldn't be able to know which information is relevant.

I wouldn't be surprised if Nic had Ursiel's coin. Him having Lasciel's coin that basically covered in an avalanche of rock and lava would be a bit of a stretch. It escaping some other way wouldn't surprise me because it's part of the coins nature to "be in circulation."

[Silentbrick]

I feel confident that Nic could have used his own coin and his wonder shadow to slither in the rocks and get the coin.  If it can make him fly, i'm sure it can manipulate other objects.

[g33k]

Haven't heard either of those.

https://wordof.jim-butcher.com/index.php/word-of-jim-woj-compilation/woj-on-angels-demons-fallen-and-knights-of-the-cross/ ...

... [Lasciel's] story is not yet over.  However, both Lasciel and Lash appeared in Ghost Story, but not under those names ...

One of the problems with the WoJ archives, particularly with regards speculations about future works, is lining up statements like "we will see more of..." with the date those statements were made, vs the release of books.  Any "more of Lasciel" statement before Skin Game, for example, may have been fulfilled by Skin Game!

But here we have mention of Cold Days, so I'm pretty sure they're both coming back:  Jim Butcher "is fundamentally a lazy writer."

[morriswalters]

Bonea is the end of Lash's story. Anything else would cheapen the emotional payoff from Lash's sacrifice.  I hadn't thought about Anduriel maybe being able to get the coins.  I like it if they got left, but I'm open to the possibility that they didn't.

[Bad Alias]

Any "more of Lasciel" statement before Skin Game, for example, may have [has] been fulfilled by Skin Game!

Bonea is the end of Lash's story. Anything else would cheapen the emotional payoff from Lash's sacrifice.

These are basically my take.

I feel confident that Nic could have used his own coin and his wonder shadow to slither in the rocks and get the coin.  If it can make him fly, i'm sure it can manipulate other objects.

I'd probably agree if it weren't for the molten rock.

[g33k]

...I'd probably agree if it weren't for the molten rock.

Some of it was molten, but some of it was not.  I guess it's a matter of personal interpretation, until/unless WoJ clarifies the issue.  My take is that it was mostly solid.

It was "several hundred tons of molten and red-hot rock," which I understood to be "molten rock" and "red-hot rock(s)."  The rest of the description fits with boulders and rubble falling, and nowhere is there any description of molten rock -- it never puddles, splashes, flows, or anything of the sort.  Instead, "glowing hot stones bounced from my shield and then began to pile up against it," etc.
 

[Mira]

Some of it was molten, but some of it was not.  I guess it's a matter of personal interpretation, until/unless WoJ clarifies the issue.  My take is that it was mostly solid.

It was "several hundred tons of molten and red-hot rock," which I understood to be "molten rock" and "red-hot rock(s)."  The rest of the description fits with boulders and rubble falling, and nowhere is there any description of molten rock -- it never puddles, splashes, flows, or anything of the sort.  Instead, "glowing hot stones bounced from my shield and then began to pile up against it," etc.

None of that would destroy the coin, but then the question remains, who'd dig it out?  Who aside from Harry know that it is there?   Can Lasciel project to a potential host from under the rock pile if the coin isn't physically touched.

[morriswalters]

In the real world I would say bring a hundred man or woman working party and heavy equipment.  However this isn't the real world and just maybe Anduriel could have grabbed the coins.  I have no idea.  Harry buried a coin under concrete in his basement and Lash said calling it would be no problem. But that was a shadow calling its fallen

[Snark Knight]

None of that would destroy the coin, but then the question remains, who'd dig it out?  Who aside from Harry know that it is there?   Can Lasciel project to a potential host from under the rock pile if the coin isn't physically touched.

Do we know that only a shadow host can summon their Fallen's coin, or could any of the other Denarians retrieve a dropped coin that way? I thought the blessed handkerchiefs used to cover the coins the Knights recover until they can go into warded boxes were to jam Nic or Tessa or one of the other long-term Denarians from summoning the coins of their goons back.

[g33k]

... I thought the blessed handkerchiefs used to cover the coins the Knights recover until they can go into warded boxes were to jam Nic or Tessa or one of the other long-term Denarians from summoning the coins of their goons back.

Yeah, I think that's what they're for; possibly other things as well.

I'm unconvinced they actually DO the thing(s) the Church thinks they do, however...