Denarian Shadows

[g33k]

Denarians, as we know, can implant a "shadow" of themselves within the mind of a mortal who knowingly/intentionally handles a coin.

It doesn't appear to be like a magical "tag," where touching an unwilling or unknowing subject gives that person a Shadow.  You gotta know what you're doing, and do it either intentionally or carelessly.  Similarly, merely "handling" a coin isn't sufficient to release the Fallen and become their host.  You must, it seems, agree to that role; you must "make a deal with the Devil," so to speak.

Still, there is that "Shadowed" step, between being host to one of the Fallen and being utterly free of the coin & its Fallen.

But thanks to @morriswalters, I just realized something...

In Proven Guilty, Michael Carpenter tells Harry how to eliminate the shadow:

“Give up the coin of your own will. And set aside your power. If you do, Lasciel’s shadow will dwindle with it and waste away.”

Hmm.  That's how a WIZARD can do it.  (How can a MUGGLE do it?  Or CAN they even?  More on that below...).

Then we look at Harry's magic.  Even before the Shadow manifested to Harry, in dream or illusion, it was still giving Hellfire to Harry's magic; mostly to Fuego, but also to Forzare.  Simply running his will through his staff (to get the runes glowing) brought a hint of brimstone.

Taken together, it appears that a Denarian Shadow -- in a wizard -- links directly and to their magic, not merely to their "mind."

I mean, yeah there's stuff like the "eidetic memory" trick, gift-of-Tongues, etc.  Mental tricks that aren't explicitly "magical."

But the Shadow was affecting Harry's spells without him understanding how, or what to do about it; and the Church knows that setting aside magic will cause a Shadow to "whither" alongside the magic.

So the Shadow -- in a Wizard -- is linked specifically to their magic!

Other mortals (from above), non-wizards?  How do they get free?  I'm going to go over to Father Forthill's wisdom in Proven Guilty:

“Power,” he said, waving a hand in an all-encompassing gesture.  "Magic.  Physical strength.  Economic strength.  Political strength.  It all serves a single purpose..."

So I'll venture a WAG that any Muggle would set aside the Shadow by setting aside their mundane strength.  Retire from politics (including all consulting, being interviewed, writing op-ed pieces, lobbying, etc); give away all their wealth; etc.  Someone with physical strength would be particularly challenged, I think; they'd have to set up their life to operate as if they were of average-or-less strength, and intentionally act within those limits.  Take more trips carrying smaller loads, pack smaller bags/boxes to carry, etc.

[Yuillegan]

Very interesting question.

I like the answer you have given, especially as Jim when writing how one gives up a denarian was only thinking about it from a Wizards perspective.

The simple answer of course, is that almost no one ever does, so there might not be much knowledge for how to do it.

Our case study is Sanya. What did Sanya put aside to remove the Fallen? His ego? His tainted love for Rosanna? It is unclear. Yes admittedly he was giving up the Coin, not resisting a shadow.

So perhaps you have to take up the Coin to get rid of the Shadow if you are a vanilla mortal. Have to go forward to go back, so to speak.

[Snark Knight]

It doesn't appear to be like a magical "tag," where touching an unwilling or unknowing subject gives that person a Shadow.  You gotta know what you're doing, and do it either intentionally or carelessly.  Similarly, merely "handling" a coin isn't sufficient to release the Fallen and become their host.  You must, it seems, agree to that role; you must "make a deal with the Devil," so to speak.

I'm not sure either way on that. There are some indications it works that way, but then Harry seemed to think Thomas and Karrin were in danger if they touched dropped coins without knowing what they were was in SmF. He & Michael also both thought little Harry Carpenter would have been in trouble if Harry hadn't grabbed Lasciel's coin first when Nicodemus threw it at him at the end of DM, and a toddler clearly wouldn't have any idea about that.

[morriswalters]

Somebody can look this up if they care enough. Harry and Michael talk about this.  Maybe in Skin Game. I tried to find it, but it's in one of the books somewhere..  Michael said that the Denarians had attacked the Knights through their children in just this fashion.  Harry describes shadow as an imaginary friend in Small Favor. So think about it.

In terms of how a vanilla mortal shakes a shadow.  I picture it like addiction.  Some people can shoot up and walk away, some are hooked for life.  With no coin and no magic energy to draw on, the shadow would just fade over time.

[g33k]

I'm not sure either way on that. There are some indications it works that way, but then Harry seemed to think Thomas and Karrin were in danger if they touched dropped coins without knowing what they were was in SmF ...

I'm pretty sure this specific instance is Harry not knowing for sure, but knowing the downside risk was immeasurably-awful!   

... He & Michael also both thought little Harry Carpenter would have been in trouble if Harry hadn't grabbed Lasciel's coin first when Nicodemus threw it at him at the end of DM, and a toddler clearly wouldn't have any idea about that.

This is an excellent point... and I presume Michael is in a position to know with some accuracy.

Somebody can look this up if they care enough. Harry and Michael talk about this.  Maybe in Skin Game. I tried to find it, but it's in one of the books somewhere..  Michael said that the Denarians had attacked the Knights through their children in just this fashion.  Harry describes shadow as an imaginary friend in Small Favor. So think about it.

Again, good points.

But then... why do the Denarians torture people to try to get them to take a coin?  Seems like a poor tactic for long-term success!  Harry, Marcone, Ivy... Why not just /touch/ the coin to them, duct-tape it to their bicep, whatever.  Place the coin in contact with them, and keep them prisoner until they convert?  I mean... maybe the whole "torture" schtick is fun for some of them (Tessa springs to mind, and whoever Ursiel targets), but others (like Nic) seem to feel it's a lamentably-slow process & only moderately likely to be productive.

If all it took was an unwitting touch, I expect there'd be a HUGE Denarian push to place Shadows in strategic locations throughout both Muggle and supernatural worlds.  I mean, it's EASY to get just a touch onto someone not expecting that.

So I'm not clear what the parameters are... I can see textual evidence that shadow-at-a-touch IS a problem, and that it is NOT.

Maybe "it's complicated" is the best we can hope for.
 

[Mira]

But then... why do the Denarians torture people to try to get them to take a coin?  Seems like a poor tactic for long-term success!  Harry, Marcone, Ivy... Why not just /touch/ the coin to them, duct-tape it to their bicep, whatever.  Place the coin in contact with them, and keep them prisoner until they convert?  I mean... maybe the whole "torture" schtick is fun for some of them (Tessa springs to mind, and whoever Ursiel targets), but others (like Nic) seem to feel it's a lamentably-slow process & only moderately likely to be productive.

  Maybe because just any smuck isn't a whole lot of use, they want a host with "skills" physical and mental to begin with to use and enhance. 

[Bad Alias]

Somebody can look this up if they care enough. Harry and Michael talk about this.  Maybe in Skin Game. I tried to find it, but it's in one of the books somewhere..  Michael said that the Denarians had attacked the Knights through their children in just this fashion.

I'm putting my money on Proven Guilty when Harry confesses to Michael.

Why not just /touch/ the coin to them, duct-tape it to their bicep, whatever. 

Because the thing is choosing to pick up the coin, not choosing the Fallen.

[Con]

I think it might depend a lot on the coin and Denarian themselves. From what we've learnt those Denarians that are basically just demonic muscle, can give up their coin willingly and even relatively easily, as we learnt from Sanya and Cassius. Hell Cassius could even give it up with full intention of picking it up again.

More powerful Denarians might be harder to fore go.

Although Nicodemus did give up the coin in Skin Game when he was goading Murphy.

I remember he said 'Save me Oh Knight' after ordering Genowska to kill Harry.

As for the Shadows, Lash and Harry even discussed usually it only takes a couple of days maybe 2 weeks for most to accept the coin/denarian.

Lash was able to change who she was due to Harry's influence on her as much as her influence on Harry.

Another thing to consider is that Lash said Harry's easier to talk to when he's asleep. Referring to Harry's ID self. So assuming most people don't have a literal alter ego, Shadows can still talk and tempt the persons subconscious.

[morriswalters]

Touching the coin is only half the game.  You have to invite the fallen in.  The shadow exists to close the sale.  Torture could be used, either by triggering the Stockholm Syndrome or through simple brainwashing after breaking the subject.

[Mira]

Another thing to consider is that Lash said Harry's easier to talk to when he's asleep. Referring to Harry's ID self. So assuming most people don't have a literal alter ego, Shadows can still talk and tempt the persons subconscious.

Yeah, well, we all know that Harry's ID is the dark side of his "force."  The ID is all action and to hell with the consequences, that would make him easier not just to talk to but to convince by Lasciel.   Here is a thought, and I think there have been hints that since Bonny is the child of the ID and depending on when they mated if she was more Lash than Lasciel or vice versa, Bonny might be
more like Evil Bob than Bob.  Wonder how long it will take Harry to figure that one out?

[Regenbogen]

Some quotes I found about the coins:

Proven Guilty Ch. 47 Michael:
“Give up the coin of your own will. And set aside your power. If you do, Lasciel’s shadow will dwindle with it and waste away.”

White Night, Ch. 9 Lash:
“Then rid yourself of me. Take up the coin, and I will rejoin the rest of myself, whole again. You will be well rid of me.”

Small Favor, Ch. 38 Michael and Harry
“Because in two thousand years, no one has rid themselves of the shadow of one of the Fallen—except by accepting the demon into them entirely, taking up the coin, and living to feel remorse and discarding it. And you claim that you never took up the coin.” “That’s right,” I said. “Then either the shadow is still there,” Michael said, “still twisting your thoughts. Still whispering to you. Or you’re lying to me about taking up the coin. Those are the only options.”

So, what do we know?

1. Touching a Blackened Denarius enables the shadow of the Denarian to enter your mind. Once inside it starts to talk you into accepting the Fallen (given that the person touching the coin had not planned accepting the Fallen in the first place).

2. Once the Fallen is accepted, the shadow is gone/ reunited with it's original.

3. If a wizard is "infected" with a Fallen's shadow without accepting the Fallen, the only way to get rid of the shadow would be, according to Michael, to "set aside" his "power". He doesn't say " magic", though I would assume it means magic. It could be another power, but honestly, that doesn't make sense to me.
A solution for this case is not provided for non-wizards, as it seems. Except "power" means something other than "magic". At least Michael doesn't know or tell. And why should he? Harry is a wizard and hasn't asked anyway.

4. Another way to get rid of the shadow would be taking up the coin, accepting the Fallen and then giving up the coin.
This would also work for non-wizards.



I haven't found anything else concerning getting rid of the shadows in the books. So if not for #4, we can only guess how it could work for " muggles".
Also I agree that we cannot be sure that Michael really knows everything about it. Or that Lash is telling the truth, when she tells Harry that no shadow has stayed that long without the host taking up the coin.


My thoughts:
before Skin Game I didn't believe Lash was really gone. I believed she was just shut away in the damaged part of Harry's brain, unable to be detected and unable to contact him. Until after some years the brain has healed. Then she would be back.

But then came Skin Game. Lasciel is now in a new host.
First I thought, OK, wrong theory.
But now I ask myself:
What happens to a shadow if it's original Fallen is accepted into another host?
Has this been asked before?

If the shadow vanishes in this case, that would be another possibility for a "muggle" to get rid of it without accepting the coin: giving the coin to someone else. Not a morally acceptable solution, but maybe a working one.

[g33k]

...
But now I ask myself:
What happens to a shadow if it's original Fallen is accepted into another host?
Has this been asked before?   

I believe each Shadow is entirely separate from its Fallen.  An imprint within the mind of the victim, NOT part of, attached to, or powered by the Fallen in any way.

As such, there is no real limit on the number of Shadows that can co-exist in the world.

My own working theory is that this is how (or at least one of the ways that) the Fallen keep their coins in circulation:  each of the Fallen, at any moment, has a score or more of Shadows working, hidden within ordinary-seeming muggles.  These are not actively working to advance the "cause" of the Fallen, they're a Backup Plan.  Each one works on three agenda items:

• giving the Host a good, secure life.  Stable, safe, etc.  They're backup.  they need to be reliable!
• making the Host sympathetic and trusting toward the Shadow within them, and the Fallen it represents (#1 helps a LOT!).
• checking a Dead-Drop periodically

That's it.  But also, the actual Denarian, holding the Coin, periodically sends a spy-style "Dead Drop" to each of their Shadow's.  All the Drop is, is something to say "I'm still going; don't activate!"

But then, if any particular Coin drops out of circulation, the Dead Drops no longer keep the Backup Plan quiescent.  Suddenly there's a bunch of Shadows telling their hosts how to summon the Coin, and that it's Very Important that they do so.

For further safety, I imagine a few of the Fallen have a mutual-trust society, whereby they don't even know all the locations & Dead-Drops of their own backup Shadows, but rely on a backup Fallen to ACTICVELY activate that Shadow (i.e. those Hosts check a drop that DOESN'T regularly happen, but if the the drop DOES activate, then they summon).  This prevents a Host who turns on them (like Sanya did) from getting to the Backup Shadows before they can Activate, because not even the Fallen or their Host knows all of the Backup Shadows.

... or maybe that's too paranoid and careful even for millenia-old Fallen Angels?... <heh>  NO, IT'S NOT.
 
I presume they have other measures in place, too.

[Mira]

3. If a wizard is "infected" with a Fallen's shadow without accepting the Fallen, the only way to get rid of the shadow would be, according to Michael, to "set aside" his "power". He doesn't say " magic", though I would assume it means magic. It could be another power, but honestly, that doesn't make sense to me.

On this point I'm kind of with Harry, simply because I think Michael is guessing, or maybe more like hoping that if Harry gave up his magic the shadow would leave his head.  Since it has never happened before as far as the records show for the last 2,000 years how would he know? 

[g33k]

On this point I'm kind of with Harry, simply because I think Michael is guessing, or maybe more like hoping that if Harry gave up his magic the shadow would leave his head.  Since it has never happened before as far as the records show for the last 2,000 years how would he know?

I think Michael was being truthful, telling Harry that this is the way that works, the ONLY way.  I think the Knights (and their backup group in the Church) have sufficient records to know that this HAS been a reliable method; if the wizard can reliably set aside their power to wither away, the Shadow will reliably wither away too.

HOWEVER... there's an unspoken "so far as they know" in there, and I'm sure they DON'T know as far as they think they do!

I suspect that one of the things that triggers the Denarians to go on a records-purge (to strip the Church of knowledge about them) is if the Church ever learns another way to purge a Shadow.  If Fallen go after a Man or Woman of Power, and the Host resists the Shadow... well, they're no longer a person of Power, because they've set it aside to get free of the Shadow!

So the Fallen may not have a new Host, BUT a potentially-powerful foe has been neutralized!  I think the Fallen are QUITE happy with the Church actively working to disempower the Powerful who have sufficient strength of character to resist them!

[g33k]

... Also I agree that we cannot be sure that Michael really knows everything about it...

Honestly, I think we CAN be sure that Michael (and the Church) really do NOT know everything about it!  Michael won't be lying, and he's unlikely (IMHO) to have information on it that's actively wrong.

But it's absolutely certain that his info is incomplete; and likely that it's catastrophically incomplete!

... Or that Lash is telling the truth, when she tells Harry that no shadow has stayed that long without the host taking up the coin...

Obviously.  We can never be certain than a bloody agent of the Fallen(!) is telling the truth!

But that scene near the end, I think is likely truthful.  If it were just that one comment, I'd be dubious...  I mean, Lash clearly presents as becoming deeply affected by Harry, and doubting herself and her mission.  That scene begins with Lash asking Harry if he actually believes Molly can turn around and avoid becoming a Warlock; she may be thinking of her own situation, or even Lasciel the Fallen Angel.  She wavers between doubtful (but hopeful) questioning, and raging (but fragile) pride.  Harry is convincing her.  Or is it all just an act???

Later that night, she declares that Lasciel doesn't deserve to get Harry, and chooses to sacrifice herself to save Harry.  So Harry has convinced her, and that prior scene wasn't Lash "acting" in a new strategy to trick Harry, but genuinely showing change and growth.

It matches up with other elements, too, such as Nicodemus (and Anduriel (Anduriel!  the Denarian's spymaster / CIO!) got tricked and blindsided by Harry Dresden, because they were utterly confident that Harry couldn't be free of the Shadow.