Denarian Shadows

[g33k]

None of that would destroy the coin, but then the question remains, who'd dig it out?  Who aside from Harry know that it is there?   Can Lasciel project to a potential host from under the rock pile if the coin isn't physically touched.

Well, I'm suggesting that Nic DID dig it out, right after Dresden&Co departed.

But as to who knows... Harry, Michael, Goodman, Anna, & Nic.  Anyone else who can get the info from any of them (Anna Valmont is a likely target for supernaturals), or who is told by them.

Of course, getting into the vault to get the coin is rather an issue; even Nic+Anduriel needed to assemble a special crew, and expend some extraordinary resources.

I expect the coin is supernaturally-retrievable SOMEHOW (but as noted, don't think it's necessary).

[Arjan]

Well, I'm suggesting that Nic DID dig it out, right after Dresden&Co departed.

But as to who knows... Harry, Michael, Goodman, Anna, & Nic.  Anyone else who can get the info from any of them (Anna Valmont is a likely target for supernaturals), or who is told by them.

Of course, getting into the vault to get the coin is rather an issue; even Nic+Anduriel needed to assemble a special crew, and expend some extraordinary resources.

I expect the coin is supernaturally-retrievable SOMEHOW (but as noted, don't think it's necessary).

The coins can not be kept out of circulation for too long. That is just how things work in the dresdenverse. Nic just called the coins or sent Anduriel to pick them up. Having a collection of coins has always been a top priority for them. He had enough time to get Lasciels coin when Harry and the Genoskwa where in the ice maze and he got through that maze in some way passing the genoskwa.

[morriswalters]

I hate to be a kill joy.  But is there any indication that any fallen can call the coin of any other fallen? Or that the fallen can directly handle matter, as in a coin?  My assumption has always been that to get to that coin, Nic would have had to dig through that pile of rocks.  The fallen act through their hosts, or am I missing something?

[Arjan]

I hate to be a kill joy.  But is there any indication that any fallen can call the coin of any other fallen? Or that the fallen can directly handle matter, as in a coin?  My assumption has always been that to get to that coin, Nic would have had to dig through that pile of rocks.  The fallen act through their hosts, or am I missing something?

There is no direct evidence for any of it. Nic might be able to just call it, he might be able to use Anduriel for more than a taxi service. I do think however that the coins are meant to be in circulation and that it is not really possible to keep them out of circulation for an extended period of time. 

[Mira]

I hate to be a kill joy.  But is there any indication that any fallen can call the coin of any other fallen? Or that the fallen can directly handle matter, as in a coin?  My assumption has always been that to get to that coin, Nic would have had to dig through that pile of rocks.  The fallen act through their hosts, or am I missing something?

   There is also a little matter of jurisdiction,  this is the Kingdom of Hades.  Remember what he said
about Deidre's punishment?  So I really doubt that Nic could just go back in there and dig it out. 

[Arjan]

   There is also a little matter of jurisdiction,  this is the Kingdom of Hades.  Remember what he said
about Deidre's punishment?  So I really doubt that Nic could just go back in there and dig it out.

That is Deirdre, he won't get her back. But a denarion coin might be something else.

And the whole thing is also a test. He can take what he wants if he can get away with it, if he proves himself. If Hades wanted to make the mission impossible he could have done so.

[Bad Alias]

Anduriel/Nic's shadow has interacted with physical objects. It's possible that Nic's shadow could stretch out down through the rocks to grab the coin.

My problem is that I don't think he could do that past the molten rocks. Molten means either liquefied rocks or red hot rocks, with the first being the more common meaning. I think the first would be an almost 100% barrier. I think the second is something like a 75% barrier.

[Arjan]

Anduriel/Nic's shadow has interacted with physical objects. It's possible that Nic's shadow could stretch out down through the rocks to grab the coin.

My problem is that I don't think he could do that past the molten rocks. Molten means either liquefied rocks or red hot rocks, with the first being the more common meaning. I think the first would be an almost 100% barrier. I think the second is something like a 75% barrier.

Except that things like probability are not really reliable around theses things. The coins want to be found. It is entirely possible that 98% of Hannah was covered with molten rock and that the coin was not.

[Mira]

Except that things like probability are not really reliable around theses things. The coins want to be found. It is entirely possible that 98% of Hannah was covered with molten rock and that the coin was not.

  Possible, with Nic grabbing it without anyone noticing and taking it with him.  However I don't see  Nic returning to Hades for it.  It may also be possible that Hades has it in his possession, in that case
in my opinion no one else is going to get it.

[g33k]

  Possible, with Nic grabbing it without anyone noticing and taking it with him.  However I don't see  Nic returning to Hades for it.  It may also be possible that Hades has it in his possession, in that case
in my opinion no one else is going to get it.

Agreed, Nic won't return to Hades' vault.

But recall how he hid and retreated at the end of the fight with Michael & Harry?  Emphasis on "hid," for our purposes:  he vanished from BOTH their views, mid-combat.

I think that demonstrates that Anduriel could cloak Nic during... say... the Dresden vs. Denarian-Gen duel.  The big guy was flinging so much rock, collapsing columns, etc... Harry would likely not have noticed a careful and subtle effort by the Master of Shadows.

That's Lasciel, in the bag!  Besides... If that WASN'T what he was doing... He was doing something even worse (because Nicodemus).

Then he lurks after the chase, sees Roadkill Gen, and gives the Good Guys a moment to get clear; then moves in to score Ursiel for the twofer.

And we saw how fast he could move, in his dash through the Gate & to the vault-door (where he paused to taunt Harry (& Michael)).

I honestly don't even consider this a WAG, just a most-likely course of events.

[Snark Knight]

I hate to be a kill joy.  But is there any indication that any fallen can call the coin of any other fallen? Or that the fallen can directly handle matter, as in a coin?  My assumption has always been that to get to that coin, Nic would have had to dig through that pile of rocks.  The fallen act through their hosts, or am I missing something?

There's evidence Anduriel can interact with matter directly when he's driving Nic's shadow around - that was how Dresden got captured in DM. He may be unique among the Fallen in that, and it's uncertain whether he can exert enough force to excavate the coin, but it's a possible explanation if Jim wants the coin back in circulation.

Standing Denarians being able to summon another Fallen's coin is unproven. The Church seems to think they're preventing something with the blessed kerchiefs and warded strongboxes, but they could be wrong about the enemy's capabilities.

[morriswalters]

When Harry is having the final face off with Lasciel she tells him that mortals can't contain the coin.  Hades isn't a mortal and he guarded the Holy Grail.  If Lasciel's coin didn't leave with Nicodemus, she's going to have a hard time getting out.  I think she'll look good displayed on a pedestal in his collection.

[spiritofair]

From a story telling perspective, it would be shocking to see Lasciel done and gone and trapped in Hades vault for good. I just think that Lasciel's going to have a role going forward.

So, either Nic got the coin, which is the most obvious way for it to get out and one that is totally supported by the events as others have posited, the coin will escape on its own due to it's nature, Bonnie will summon "Mother" somehow at some point, or someone will go to the vault and get it. Of course, Jim is infinitely creative and may have another idea in mind, too, but those are the ones that immediately come to mind.

[Bad Alias]

I don't see any story Lasciel has left in the Dresden Files. But that doesn't mean there isn't one. If it was clear to me why Lasciel needs to be in the story down the road, that would be a reason to believe that the coin gets back into circulation, but not necessarily that Nic got it out.

[Mira]

I don't see any story Lasciel has left in the Dresden Files. But that doesn't mean there isn't one. If it was clear to me why Lasciel needs to be in the story down the road, that would be a reason to believe that the coin gets back into circulation, but not necessarily that Nic got it out.

The story doesn't need Lasciel, there is plenty of her in Bonny along with Harry's Id, he will be fighting against their influence as much as he will be calling on them to help.   I believe that has
been hinted at by Jim.