NemVECTOR

[g33k]

Don't recall which book the Ramp's first showed up to a vamp/wiz fight with Outsiders, but I recall it being a nasty surprise to the White Council.  Harry said with some dismay that Outsider-summoning needed mortal magic (so the Ramps had mortal magicians as allies)... IIRC, it contributed to his "There must be a Black Council" analysis (figuring the BC as having made the Ramps into catspaws).

Meanwhile, over on the "can mortals be nemfected, or carriers, or not" theorycrafting & WAG threads, I've been using the term "Nemvector," as a generalization of carrier and/or nemfected:  the point is they are a 'fection vector.

But of course... every mortal spellcaster is a potential "Nemvector" in the sense of being able to be a new Patient Zero:  do a Summons, get Outsider-y influence and something that IS susceptible gets Nemfected.

For example, it's a whole new way Elaine could have Nemfected Aurora -- she could have been a non-Nemfected non-Carrier, and have no Athame-type artifact... and yet, Summon the Nemfection directly from Outside!

Given how subtle and tricksy Nemfection seems to be, I might further WAG that even SUMMONING a Nemfection might be very VERY hard to detect.
 

[Yuillegan]

I believe the book you are referring to is Dead Beat. Up until that point - the war hadn't escalated overmuch. But I think Luccio is talking about it when the White Council is pursued into the Nevernever after a trap in Sicily. And I think 80% of the Wardens are killed. Interestingly, this is the book in which Cowl first introduces himself (only having a brief cameo possibly in Grave Peril, the book the war starts in and where we first see people potentially infected, also Mavra and others show up). And we first learn about Kemmler in Dead Beat. So all in all, a potent book with lots of hints.

I think your theory works if any Mortal practitioner can in fact summon Outsiders. We still have no idea how this is done. The closest example we have is the ritual in Blood Rites. Which is a huge hint to how to summon them, likely mortal blood is required. Madge and the other wives summon HWWBh using the rituals gained from Lord Raith's extensive occult library, is the only way we have seen so far.

I also challenge that it cannot be so easy to summon Nemesis, otherwise wouldn't there be an epidemic? Unless there is a whole horde of sleeper agent Nemfected and Nemvectors just being put into position waiting to strike...

No, I think it is harder than that. Otherwise why infect the Athame? The only way we have seen so far as the conduit for infection by Nemesis. If it were so easy to infect others, the whole song and dance with the Athame becomes unnecessary.

My theory is that if Elaine did infect Aurora, then likely she gave Aurora a tainted gift. She needed something to bargain for protection/hospitality from the Summer Court and she couldn't have done it with nothing unless she wanted to be in considerable debt/obligation (which only Harry is stupid enough to do). I think at least part of the deal was some artifact of Justin's. But who knows.

The biggest hints we have so far about how an individual becomes infected are and what we know about it:
1) Per WOJ - the Athame was more than a vector for madness, it more accurately was a vector for power.
2) Those who have become infected were trying to upset the status quo (by and large). Leah wished to challenge Mab, Aurora wished to challenge the Courts and break the cycle, Maeve wished to challenge Mab etc. They all needed more power, or perhaps more accurately needed more freedom, in which to do so.
3) I know everyone doesn't believe the mortals were infected, but if they were they fit the mould. Victor Sells wanted more power and wealth, Agent Denton wished to punish those he thought the law protected too well, Kravos wished to rise above his mediocrity and challenge the White Council (or at least gain their respect).
4) Being too close to Mortals changes the Fae. They resist it but it is dangerous for them. It might be dangerous for almost all supernatural types, as it changes how they interact with the world. I think this also is a hint for how a Faerie might become susceptible to Nemesis as well. They are meant to be different to Mortals and changing their nature could compromise their purpose.
5) Nemesis cannot affect Archangels (and likely Angels) per WOJ. So we at least can trust that it has some limits.
6) It can Hear those who use any of its Names, like a deity. It also once discovered can take active control of its Host(s) and can potentially spread to others (from Harry and Lily's conversation - why she was so cagey in the beginning because she didn't know if he was infested). Like many secret agents, when discovered it must convert the discoverer into an asset or kill them.
7) It also seems to have spread to the White Court causing them to change their diets, to the Red Court causing them to to become hostile openly and causing inner turmoil within, to the Fomor - active and aggressive after so long. Unless of course Maeve lied and these were merely moves in a much greater plan...
8 ) Nemesis (the Adversary) has multiple Names. I speculate that this is related to the Mother's true name. Perhaps it is because it is their adversary. But also I think giving it a name defines it, makes it more real. Like the Oblivion war, I think even Outsiders need a name/idea to latch onto to take shape.
9) It mostly takes decades of experience to recognize it without using the Sight (which has obvious detrimental effects). Rashid compared the techniques to art more than skill. So we know it is lies truly deep within a host, dormant or otherwise. Perhaps it attaches to their Soul, or at least a part of it.

[Bad Alias]

I believe the book you are referring too is Dead Beat.

I think your theory works if any Mortal practitioner can in fact summon Outsiders. ... The closest example we have is the ritual in Blood Rites.

why infect the Athame?

she couldn't have done it with nothing unless she wanted to be in considerable debt/obligation (which only Harry is stupid enough to do).

7) It also seems to have spread to the White Court causing them to change their diets, to the Red Court causing them to to become hostile openly and causing inner turmoil within, to the Fomor - active and aggressive after so long. Unless of course Maeve lied and these were merely moves in a much greater plan...

It was Dead Beat.

Summoning Outsiders

While I wouldn't say that any mortal practitioner can summon an Outsider, Harry said that only mortal practitioners can summon an Outsider. The Blood Rites example illustrates several points. A mortal practitioner of at least Madge's skill and talent (likely even Trixie's because Harry suspects she had been performing the ritual) can draw power from an Outsider. He Who Walks Behind is an Outsider. Harry "banished" him. He's back after the ritual. His power was active Inside as soon as the first ritual was performed.

So I would conclude that just about any mortal, with sufficient knowledge, can summon an Outsider. (I can break down how I reached that conclusion in more detail, if anyone cares).

The Athame

It could be that Nemesis needs some kind of vector to infect. So Elaine, or whoever, performs some ritual and Nemesis occupies the Athame much like the loa that inhabited the Cabbage Patch Doll. Then the target must interact magically with the vector. I neither advocate nor object to this idea. It's just what I thought when I read "why infect the Athame."

Elaine's Considerable Debt

Elaine had considerable debt or lied about it.

A Much Greater Plan

I subscribe to the "Much Greater Plan" theory. There have been several hints (perhaps misdirections) that those Outside have some sort of hierarchical structure. I believe Harry states at some point that the "Outsiders" are "foot soldiers" of "Old Ones" banished from reality. The Walkers were described as knights or generals; I don't recall specifically. Nemesis was described as a "sapper."

There is some dark and evil conspiracy behind basically every case file. If it is the forces of "Outside," I don't think Nemesis is the top/only part of that dark and evil conspiracy.

[Yuillegan]

Good point. Harry talks about the magic Trixie Vixen performs as a ritual "a cosmic vending machine" rather than having actually powers or being a wizard/sorceress/practitioner. Jim has I think in the past said anyone can basically perform magic, but like anything it takes time and practice and knowledge, and a certain amount of talent to do anything special.

It could be that Nemesis needs some kind of vector to infect. So Elaine, or whoever, performs some ritual and Nemesis occupies the Athame much like the loa that inhabited the Cabbage Patch Doll. Then the target must interact magically with the vector. I neither advocate nor object to this idea. It's just what I thought when I read "why infect the Athame."

^^This. Pretty much my guess as well, although my guess is that it must be an inherently magical item. If only for the fact the only vector so far was one.

Elaine - pretty much an either or. Doesn't matter either way overmuch really, as the result was that she did spend time becoming entangled with Summer.

Greater Plan - Yeah the Walkers (HWWBh, HWWBf, HWWBetween/Beside/Betwixt) are all considered powerful "knights" amongst their ruling entities. Only HWWBh is described as being Archangel level, whereas before is described as Mab level "but deeper" (assuming Mab isn't Archangel level...let's not get sidetracked here). The Old Ones are the ruling entities of the Outsiders, although it isn't clear if they are in fact the same species but we assume so, and that they once ruled the earth but were banished and locked down (although not all are Outside). I quite agree the Nemesis isn't near the top. It wouldn't surprise me if Nemesis was a Walker, but does seem qualitatively different from them. Neither Before or Behind have ever displayed the ability to infect or possess others, or any inclination to. They all seem to serve different functions. The Old Ones seem rather apocalyptic, and if they do come from and have existed outside the universe then likely they are more dangerous on a multi-verse level.

But who can say.

[g33k]

I think your theory works if any Mortal practitioner can in fact summon Outsiders. We still have no idea how this is done. The closest example we have is the ritual in Blood Rites. Which is a huge hint to how to summon them, likely mortal blood is required. Madge and the other wives summon HWWBh using the rituals gained from Lord Raith's extensive occult library, is the only way we have seen so far. 

Good point. Harry talks about the magic Trixie Vixen performs as a ritual "a cosmic vending machine" rather than having actually powers or being a wizard/sorceress/practitioner...

It's worth noting that the actual ritual is an Entropy-Curse to kill the target by way of "random bad luck and millions-to-one coincidence" (such as frozen turkeys falling out of airplanes).

As noted, this curse is the "vending machine" variety -- do the rite (do it right), kill the vic.  Unless some nosy-parker White Council asshole mucks with your spell, of course.  But even WITH the correct rite, the sacrifice, etc... the rite doesn't do ANYTHING to the victim, really... the rite invokes some fearsome Other Power to nail the victim.  All the rite really does is say, "excuse me, sir... here's one death, and some miscellaneous other debauchery, and if it please you could you kill that person over there?  Pretty please, with heartsblood on top?"

When Harry F's it up for them we discover the Other Power (for the spell Raith let them use) was, in fact, an Outsider.

We don't actually know that they COULD HAVE performed an actual Summoning, if they'd used a different ritual in the Cosmic Vending Machine -- that was an accident, a malfunction in the ritual (Harry's awfully good at that sort of thing (possibly extra-good at it where Outsiders are concerned?)).  I admit that -- at least in principle, based on what we saw -- it seems awfully likely that such a ritual is eminently within the scope of the Dresdenverse Cosmic Vending Machine, even when "squibs" are feeding in coins and pressing the buttons.

But... I don't think we've seen Nemesis do anything like fuelling an Entropy Curse.  All we really see Nemesis doing is allowing other entities to do stuff (stuff they wouldn't/couldn't normally do) and then convincing (or forcing) them to actually do that stuff.  I mean... that's certainly ENOUGH for Nemesis!  For all the violence of the Walkers, their reputed might... don't seem to achieve as much...

So I'm not clear that "Nemesis" is equally summon'able via CVM magic.
 

[Yuillegan]

That Entropy Curse is pretty powerful. It warps reality to the point a plane happened to be flying overhead, and that the turkey within the plan somehow fell out. I am sure if the plane had not been there it would have been something else, but it IS still incredible.

Tbh, I think what Harry was saying was that ALL rituals like that are "vending-machine variety". That's how the work, the power and the magic comes from outside the performer of the ritual.

No, we don't know that they could have done an actual summoning. But I think for summoning to be the threat that it is, anyone can do it. Hence why the White Council like to circulate the knowledge so the power is spread too thin. That's why everyone knows the Necronomicon.

Yeah Nemesis does seem to be more effective, and certainly more dangerous, than the regular Walkers. Who basically seem to just be brutes.

Yeah I don't think Nemesis might be as easily summonable, but I DO think that it is less about the ritual and more about WHAT Nemesis is and the materials used in the ritual (blood, sacrifice, maybe mordite or some other Outside stuff) that make it potent. In fact I would be willing to bet that in order to summon Nemesis, you need a conjunction. Something to support major magical mojo.

[Bad Alias]

My point about the HWWB ritual is that it may be what allows him to Enter. It doesn't necessarily have to be a summoning in which a summoning happens and there in the circle is the summoned entity. It could be that the request for power from beyond the Outer Gates is an invitation to the sponsoring power.

Bob says Harry banished HWWB. ... HWWB has returned. Is the ritual what allowed him to return? Would the ritual have done anything had he not returned, or stated alternatively, can he supply the power for the ritual while banished from the Inside? Did something else happen in the ellipsis?

[g33k]

How many "vectors" do we know of for sure?

There's the Athame -- Bianca gave it to Lea, and it infected Lea, who infected Maeve (we don't know if Maeve was infected by Lea herself, or the Athame, or Lea-wielding-Athame; but it was a single "vector" of infection).

That's the only one we can really pin down as 100% known, I think.

The Athame then went to Mab, who (we think) didn't get Nemfected.  We don't know if she purged the Athame, or what; eventually, we stopped seeing it.

We don't know where the Athame came from, or who/what else it might have infected before Bianca gave it to Lea.  Presumably it's now "gone," no longer a vector of Nemfection... unless Mab herself is.

Cat Sith was infected.  Personally, I suspect a "slow burn" infection from the Athame/Lea/Maeve vector before Mab, but we don't know -- it could have been a new vector.  Or maybe Mab thinks she has it contained, but she doesn't, and somehow it got Sith.  I've seen some folks suggest Sith's Nemfection came in the middle of the novel, offscreen (I tend to suspect not, that Sith was infected from the very first time he appears in Cold Days.), but again:  we don't really know, there's been no unambiguous evidence.

There was Aurora's Nemfection.  Maybe the Athame was in Aurora's hands, before Bianca got it?  Can't rule that out, I suppose... though I'm in favor of Trojan Elaine as Aurora's vector, personally.

Any other fae?

There was Vittorio's "possession" (but I think it was one of the HWWB brothers, not Nemesis).

Any other supernatural's?

===

Then there's the open question of mortals being Nemfect'able.  I'm firmly settled in the camp of "maybe," but for purposes of this discussion, I'm arguing from the "yes they can" POV, because otherwise every anser is "no," and that's just boring (which in itself is IMHO a good argument that Jim will let mortals be Nemfected).

Was there a vector that got Sells, and/or Kravos?  Etc.  Or were they "just" warlocks with "mere" black magic?  I've seen it suggested that ALL black-magic is Outsider-y.  I s'pose that's possible.

I've theorized that -- since what Nemfection seems to do with/to Faeries is give them something like "Free Will" (the ability to act against their essential nature) -- perhaps mind-magic is specifically a Nemfection-vector (at least, potentially so).

Following up this theory, maybe each Law of Magic has a particular Outsider agent which gets a shot at wizards violating that Law.  Maybe each Outsider is tasked with undermining reality via that channel; maybe each Law is specifically established to block that particular Outsider's access to Creation.

Anyone else want to weigh in -- or WAG in -- on these questions?
 

[Bad Alias]

Does anyone else recall the WoJ that stated that Nemesis first appeared in Grave Peril? If Sells, who practiced black magic, wasn't infected, then black magic taint isn't Nemesis.

[morriswalters]

I have no idea.  But in the case of Sells and the FBI agents there physical things that had nothing to do with a nemfection.  Sells had the name of a demon and a recipe for three eye. The agents had the belts.

[Yuillegan]

I haven't seen that particular WOJ for a while, BA. I agree it if Jim was merely referring to the obvious (a nemfected vessel, or a nemvector) then indeed it does rule out Black Magic as Nemesis. Which I also think is correct anyway, despite the WOJ.

But I think it was a bit of wordplay. I think Nemesis first was on-screen, in a sense, in the Athame in Grave Peril. But. I also think that Jim wasn't actually talking about Nemesis within a host or vessel (like the Athame, or Bianca or Cowl etc). I think that Nemesis may have constructed a body for itself, like major supernatural beings do (like Harry talks about in Fool Moon, demons and gods etc). I think that that body, that contained the majority of Nemesis was on screen in Grave Peril.

Who then matches that profile? Not sure, I need to reread the book. Still though...might be something to it!

Yeah I don't think Mab is infected. Too many others would have noticed I think, like Vadderung. Unless...everyone is infected! But seriously, I think Mab is in the clear.

Cat Sith becoming infected was normally attributed to He Who Walks Before capturing Cat Sith after a commotion, and Harry notices Cat Sith fails to come to him when called. I think Harry even states this to Cat Sith. However you raise valid points. Maeve and Leah both would have had opportunities as well. But I agree I think he wasn't infected from the beginning of Cold Days. Somewhere in the middle offscreen, as you say.

Hmm not sure that they need Morgana's Athame every time they wish to infect an individual with Nemesis...more like Elaine or Cowl spread it to her via other means.

Well I am sure everyone has head my views on whether mortals can be infected, and are sick to death of it so I will spare you all that.

I am not sure it is "just" black magic taint, or that is the same as Nemesis. It might have a relation to Outsider corruption, maybe not. Not much evidence either way yet.

I more think it is a tainted ritual or gift that is specifically given to mortals by the Black Council/Circle. The belts could have tainted the FBI, Sells was given knowledge for a demon and I think Three Eye too, Kravos was given the knowledge in how to become a powerful vengeful ghost. So there are some connections...

I do like you WAG about a different Outsider (or group of Outsiders) for each Law of Magic. No idea if it is true or not but it is intriguing. Certainly lots of the Outsider themes seem to contradict the Laws directly. They like killing with magic, invading and controlling the minds of others. We haven't YET seen them transform others with magic, which isn't to say they don't. I still wonder about the Hexenwulf belts myself, considering it was likey a gift from Cowl. And I am willing to bet that Necromancy and Time Manipulation is right up there alley. There has been hints of people messing with Time (not just actively pointed out either, although I think it IS significant they attacked Demonreach through Time as well as Space) throughout the series. And obviously they have an entire LAW dedicated to them. Which is interesting as there isn't one about regular demons or monsters or even the Fallen.

So I do think there is a reasonable argument to be made that breaking the Laws of Magic helps Outsiders, which isn't necessarily the same as performing black magic.