Author Topic: Which mortal might become nemfected?  (Read 23328 times)

Offline Yuillegan

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Re: Which mortal might become nemfected?
« Reply #45 on: December 14, 2019, 05:36:07 AM »
Yes, Harry did reject the shadow.  Every day!  This was an incredible feat, unknown to the Church and even (if Lash was to believed) unknown to Lasciel herself!  Do not diminish this achievement just because it wasn't a complete purge, or whatever... it is, apparently, unparalleled in all of Creation!

What Harry didn't do -- couldn't do -- was rid himself of the shadow.

What could happen -- what DID happen -- was the shadow, trying to change Harry, became changed itself.

g33k, where are you getting this information?

I mean he resisted Lasciel's influence to a point (and I am going to use the word resist instead of reject as I think it is closer to what you mean) but he never fully cast her out (reject). Like technically you could use the word reject, but it is more accurate to use resist. Why? Because Harry did accept Lash's help. He Chose to touch the coin instead of picking up little Harry. He Chose to use Hellfire, which allowed Lash to speak with him. He Chose to use her eidetic (photographic) memory. He constantly kept Choosing to use Hellfire. Not exactly rejecting every day, as you put it. He may not have allowed for full possession, or even to work with her actively, most of the time. But he did some of the time, especially in combat (desperation or not).

Where was it EVER said that this "feat" was unparalleled? Which isn't much. As Michael implies, wizards have resisted by giving up their power. Sanya gave up his Coin. Hardly makes Dresden's trial unique. Dresden did resist the Shadow for a long time, longer than most, but where was it said he achieved something greater than any other?

AND AGAIN - As Harry points out it is arrogant in the extreme if the Church believe NO ONE EVER HAS RID THEMSELVES OF A SHADOW. How could the Church know? Their records are destroyed almost systematically, every few years!
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Offline g33k

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Re: Which mortal might become nemfected?
« Reply #46 on: December 14, 2019, 07:51:38 AM »
I mean he resisted Lasciel's influence to a point (and I am going to use the word resist instead of reject as I think it is closer to what you mean)
Well... I'm not actually attached to "reject," and can work with "resist" for purposes of the conversation.  But I'm going by the dictionary, and by my reading of the books:
  • Merriam-Webster:  "to refuse to accept, consider, submit to, take for some purpose, or use"  (example of use:  "reject the suggestion")
  • Cambridge English Dictionary (rejection):  "the act of refusing to accept, use, or believe someone or something"
  • I'd check the OED, but it seems to be paywalled.
I think these are pretty spot-on for the vast majority of Harry-v-Lash interactions.  He didn't reject everything, in every situation.  But he rejected the overwhelming majority of them, and ALWAYS rejected the option of taking up the Coin.  There's a kinda-sorta exception for Hellfire -- Lash snuck it into his magic without Harry even understanding it, and (AFAICT) he wasn't ABLE to use his magic without invoking Hellfire; true, he could have abandoned magic... but we know he won't give up his magic, it's too much a part of his identity.

edit:  I don't think the eidetic-memory thing counts, exactly.  That's a human thing, and it was running on Harry's brain, so Harry was just using his own brain's capacity in a way he hadn't previously been able to.  OTOH, I've got to grant the ancient languages thing -- Ghoul, Whamp-Etruscan, etc.

Later on, I think he was able to use more (or less) depending on what he wanted; but I'm unclear that he was EVER able to stop using it, until Lash finally gave up (and sacrificed herself).

Because Harry did accept Lash's help. He Chose to touch the coin instead of picking up little Harry. He Chose to use Hellfire, which allowed Lash to speak with him. He Chose to use her eidetic (photographic) memory. He constantly kept Choosing to use Hellfire. Not exactly rejecting every day, as you put it. He may not have allowed for full possession, or even to work with her actively, most of the time. But he did some of the time, especially in combat (desperation or not). 

He did choose to pick up the coin, and he owned up to that Choice as a meaningful and bad one.  In other words, he repented, and tried to atone.

Lash infected his magic with her Hellfire; NOT his choice.  He realized what had happened, but didn't know how to fix it.

As for his choice to use Hellfire "letting her" talk to him?  I think that was a classic Fallen Lie!  Here's my logic:
  • Lasciel's Shadow makes this claim in chapter 25, as Harry is dreaming.  "You made the conscious choice" to use Hellfire earlier that day, "and as a result, I can now appear to your conscious mind."  Please note, it's his dreaming mind, not his conscious mind; so already a lie.
  • Where did he use it?  It was in chapter 17, when Harry used Hellfire (specifically and intentionally) to bolster his mental defenses against Corpsetaker's assault.  I don't think he was ABLE to keep Hellfire out of his Fuego (and sometimes Forzare) magic, so he wasn't -- quite -- "choosing" to use it there.
  • But in chapter 16, and the prior day in chapter 7 (both occurring before his fight with Corpsetaker) Harry had quite extensive interactions with Sheila... and that was his conscious mind!
So I conclude that the Shadow was able to contact him whenever it wanted, and chose its own time and manner.

Where was it EVER said that this "feat" was unparalleled? Which isn't much. As Michael implies, wizards have resisted by giving up their power. Sanya gave up his Coin. Hardly makes Dresden's trial unique. Dresden did resist the Shadow for a long time, longer than most, but where was it said he achieved something greater than any other?

Apologies if I was unclear!  I wasn't talking about surrendering the Coin.  I was talking about the Shadow:  The "unparalleled feat" was operating for so long with the Shadow trying to convince him, neither taking up the Coin nor turning it over and renouncing his powers.

Nobody had ever done that.

Yes, we know the Church's records are incomplete, but they're extensive; and there was no hint in them.  Nicodemus was confident enough that the Shadow could control Harry that he turned his back on Harry at a critical moment; an extraordinary error neither Nic nor Anduriel would've made, if either thought it possible for Harry to be free.

Finally, we have Lash's testimony herself, in White Night.  This is the book where the Shadow is finally shaken and doubtful, where Harry's influence is becoming clear, and ultimately (in chater 41) sacrifices herself for Harry.  But in chapter 34, she admits it...
Harry: "How many shadows like you have ever stayed in a host like me for more than a few weeks, huh?  Longer than three years?"
Lash:  "Never."
So this is everything Lasciel knows -- all of her own prior Shadows, plus all cases of every other Denarian Shadows that she knows of.  Was she lying?  Maybe (it's hard to tell with the Fallen!).  But I think not:  all she had to do, to undermine Harry's confidence and bolster her own argument, was to coolly claim it was "unusual, but hardly rare" (or some such).  Instead, this chapter shows us Lash being uncertain, struggling to resist HARRY'S suasion, and generally speaking frankly with him.  Why would she lie in such a way as to strengthen Harry's will to resist & weaken her own arguments?
 
« Last Edit: December 14, 2019, 08:07:55 AM by g33k »

Offline Mira

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Re: Which mortal might become nemfected?
« Reply #47 on: December 14, 2019, 09:25:07 PM »
Quote
He did choose to pick up the coin, and he owned up to that Choice as a meaningful and bad one.  In other words, he repented, and tried to atone.

  In my opinion Harry underestimated the power of the coins.   He still thought he had the strongest will power on the planet.   He did make a poor choice as Michael pointed out, picking up little Harry would have saved him as much as picking up the coin.  However picking up the coin isn't the same as accepting the coin.   He never did that, he also misguidedly thought the burying it and putting a magical circle around it would confine the shadow.   That was his biggest mistake and he
might have been lost to it had it not been for Butters.  Once he found out, the resistance began, though again he let himself be seduced to a degree by the power of hell fire plus Lasciel's knowledge not realizing that it was gradually changing him.  Credit Murphy for sitting him down and his coming to his senses.   So it was a near thing, but Harry had drawn lines he'd not cross and eventually changing Lasciel to Lash, his choice of a jello brain or death over the choice of the coin was the final straw for her.   If she was to die, she chose to reject Lasciel/coin, and chose to die saving Harry.  So yes, he and her together did reject the coin and what it stands for.

Offline Yuillegan

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Re: Which mortal might become nemfected?
« Reply #48 on: December 16, 2019, 12:48:48 AM »
Well... I'm not actually attached to "reject," and can work with "resist" for purposes of the conversation.  But I'm going by the dictionary, and by my reading of the books:
  • Merriam-Webster:  "to refuse to accept, consider, submit to, take for some purpose, or use"  (example of use:  "reject the suggestion")
  • Cambridge English Dictionary (rejection):  "the act of refusing to accept, use, or believe someone or something"
  • I'd check the OED, but it seems to be paywalled.
Well for a start, Merriam-Webster...I won't get into it but wouldn't start using it in academia is all I am saying.
But those definitions sort of prove my point. Harry did use, and consider using, Lash/Lasciel. He also believed her on several occasions. I am not, nor I think is anyone, saying that he didn't reject her influence most of the time. But completely reject her whole self? No, he never did that. He Chose to keep his power. He Chose to wrestle with her in his mind. Now whether that is good or evil or anything else is impossible to know really. But it does say a lot about Dresden, both good and bad. At the very least, it smacks of arrogance. Most people would do everything in their power to rid themselves of demonic influence, or embrace it. But Harry chose to believe his willpower (as Mira rightly points out) was so incredible that he could do what few others could. Now he may have been partially right, but a more humble person even if they had Harry's willpower or greater more likely would have gone for help and made the sacrifice in order to be free.

I think these are pretty spot-on for the vast majority of Harry-v-Lash interactions.  He didn't reject everything, in every situation.  But he rejected the overwhelming majority of them, and ALWAYS rejected the option of taking up the Coin.  There's a kinda-sorta exception for Hellfire -- Lash snuck it into his magic without Harry even understanding it, and (AFAICT) he wasn't ABLE to use his magic without invoking Hellfire; true, he could have abandoned magic... but we know he won't give up his magic, it's too much a part of his identity.

edit:  I don't think the eidetic-memory thing counts, exactly.  That's a human thing, and it was running on Harry's brain, so Harry was just using his own brain's capacity in a way he hadn't previously been able to.  OTOH, I've got to grant the ancient languages thing -- Ghoul, Whamp-Etruscan, etc.
I agree it is exceptional that he didn't take up the Coin. I also think if he had, he wouldn't have resisted or rejected Lasciel for nearly as long as Lash. Lash was just a shadow. The real deal would have been much worse, and Harry knew it.

But I don't think she snuck the magic in there. That would violate Free Will. Harry accepted that, even chose to access it even if he didn't entirely understand what he was doing. It may not have been an informed choice but there was a choice. Him choosing to not give up his magic is also a choice, regardless of his identity. He had the option.

But as we know, the Fallen don't really give their hosts *more* magical power, just unlock what is in them by feeding their vices. Which annoys me, because it didn't always seem like that in the series but the latest book basically says that (when Harry and Hannah are talking during their duel). And it doesn't explain really how their combat forms or Anduriel's shadow magic work...unless it sort of is like the Alphas in that they know a sort of spell just for that.

So the argument that the photographic memory is"just" a human thing doesn't really work...as essentially everything the Fallen "grant" is really just unlocking the potential in the human. In fact - it almost seems that is exactly how those sort of power-ups work. The Winter Knight mantle exactly. Unless you trade in your mortal/human nature and become an entirely supernatural creature. I think the language thing was Harry accessing Lasciel's knowledge. Harry never really knew that language, he was just borrowing her mind. In terms of mechanics.

Later on, I think he was able to use more (or less) depending on what he wanted; but I'm unclear that he was EVER able to stop using it, until Lash finally gave up (and sacrificed herself).
 
He did choose to pick up the coin, and he owned up to that Choice as a meaningful and bad one.  In other words, he repented, and tried to atone.

Lash infected his magic with her Hellfire; NOT his choice.  He realized what had happened, but didn't know how to fix it.
I mean, sure. He was able to control it once he figured out it was happening. Which is still choosing to use it. There is of course an obvious way to stop using Hellfire - don't use magic. Pretty simple.

But it WAS his choice. He chose to touch the coin, he chose to access Lash, his choices led him to Hellfire. No way around it. He could have not cast spells, not touched the coin, not accessed Lash. But he did. Unfortunately, in Butcher's world, that counts as a choice. A compromised one, but no less a defined choice.

And not so sure that he repented. He felt bad. He regretted it. But he never really asked for atonement. He tried to rectify his mistake, but he didn't try everything. And when Michael gave him his only real option, he chose not to take it. He got "lucky" that Lash committed suicide (assuming it was pure chance that she "died"...and his influence changing her helped create that "luck")

As for his choice to use Hellfire "letting her" talk to him?  I think that was a classic Fallen Lie!  Here's my logic:
  • Lasciel's Shadow makes this claim in chapter 25, as Harry is dreaming.  "You made the conscious choice" to use Hellfire earlier that day, "and as a result, I can now appear to your conscious mind."  Please note, it's his dreaming mind, not his conscious mind; so already a lie.
  • Where did he use it?  It was in chapter 17, when Harry used Hellfire (specifically and intentionally) to bolster his mental defenses against Corpsetaker's assault.  I don't think he was ABLE to keep Hellfire out of his Fuego (and sometimes Forzare) magic, so he wasn't -- quite -- "choosing" to use it there.
  • But in chapter 16, and the prior day in chapter 7 (both occurring before his fight with Corpsetaker) Harry had quite extensive interactions with Sheila... and that was his conscious mind!
So I conclude that the Shadow was able to contact him whenever it wanted, and chose its own time and manner.
Well maybe it was a lie, but where was the angelic intervention to balance the scales? That is precisely what Uriel's job, and his department is for.

But I don't think it was. For a start, if we start assuming dreams are "lies" then Malcolm Dresden in Harry's dream was a lie. Which I think has been confirmed that it wasn't. But just because something happens in your head doesn't make it not real. Your head is precisely where you filter and process all the information your body receives. And Lash was referring to the fact that he was able to have a conversation with her at all. Before that she was in his subconscious. She isn't talking about his state of being asleep or awake.

The choice to use Hellfire was made earlier than that. He made it when he chose to touch that coin. Like entering a room full of high-levels of radiation, you are not choosing for it to poison you or enter your system, but by choosing to enter that room you have accepted that your environment may change and it may not be the same as the room you left - whether or not you know the room is full of radiation. And again, he could also have chosen to not use magic. He could have fought, and probably died, as a mortal.

Shiela was the product of him picking up Lasciel's coin. He accepted that outcome by touching it. He may not have been aware it would happen like that, but that doesn't change that he put himself in a situation where he thought he had to pick up the coin. The whole series, especially in the latest few books, is about how a mortal creates it's own reality through the choices that it makes.

Apologies if I was unclear!  I wasn't talking about surrendering the Coin.  I was talking about the Shadow:  The "unparalleled feat" was operating for so long with the Shadow trying to convince him, neither taking up the Coin nor turning it over and renouncing his powers.

Nobody had ever done that.
Fair enough, I did misunderstand you there. Although it doesn't prove it was unparalleled. Just unheard of and rare.

Yes, we know the Church's records are incomplete, but they're extensive; and there was no hint in them.  Nicodemus was confident enough that the Shadow could control Harry that he turned his back on Harry at a critical moment; an extraordinary error neither Nic nor Anduriel would've made, if either thought it possible for Harry to be free.
Actually that is a essentially a false position (on the part of the Church). They believe that their records are extensive. But how would they know what they don't know? Depending on how thoroughly Nic wipes the records, and who he has eliminated with that knowledge, they might have no idea how much they are missing. Think about when Mab messed with Harry's mind and removed his knowledge of fire magic and took his blasting rod, or when Molly wiped the memory of planning his suicide. Harry didn't even know what he was missing, or what had happened. Who knows what else has happened in his head.

Nicodemus is arrogant. Like many of Harry's foes, he has constantly underestimated Dresden's want to be "good". They also underestimate Harry's willpower and strength. Because they are not like him, because so few are, they fail to really understand his deeper nature. And it becomes their downfall. This is a key part of the series. Nicodemus, and those like him, truly believe everyone else is as bad as they are and will succumb to evil because they themselves failed the test.

I admit I do find it curious that Anduriel didn't intervene at all during the fight in Small Favor. But I have a theory. Whether Anduriel believed Lash, or Lasciel, wasn't present at all doesn't really matter. I think the Denarian-Fallen are like the One Ring. They betray their charges when it suits them, perhaps when they need them most. I think the Denarian-Fallen are the same plot device as the Rings of Power, specifically like the Nine Rings, in Lord of the Rings. Jim is a BIG Lord of the Rings fan. From a narrative and story crafting perspective, they essentially function the same way. I think Anduriel chose not to help Nicodemus, as the truth is all of the Fallen despise mortals for having the totally Free Will that they were denied. I think Anduriel doesn't really like working with Nicodemus really, it is just convenience. What is 2000 years to a being older than the universe? A blink of an eye. And yet they are so limited that I think they are much more angry than the Fallen in Hell, perhaps for other reasons not clear. Lucifer seemed to think that those 30 Fallen were the most likely to stab him in the back. Perhaps they are nihilists.

Finally, we have Lash's testimony herself, in White Night.  This is the book where the Shadow is finally shaken and doubtful, where Harry's influence is becoming clear, and ultimately (in chater 41) sacrifices herself for Harry.  But in chapter 34, she admits it...
Harry: "How many shadows like you have ever stayed in a host like me for more than a few weeks, huh?  Longer than three years?"
Lash:  "Never."
So this is everything Lasciel knows -- all of her own prior Shadows, plus all cases of every other Denarian Shadows that she knows of.  Was she lying?  Maybe (it's hard to tell with the Fallen!).  But I think not:  all she had to do, to undermine Harry's confidence and bolster her own argument, was to coolly claim it was "unusual, but hardly rare" (or some such).  Instead, this chapter shows us Lash being uncertain, struggling to resist HARRY'S suasion, and generally speaking frankly with him.  Why would she lie in such a way as to strengthen Harry's will to resist & weaken her own arguments?

Oh I don't think she was lying. I think no one had ever resisted her for so long. That hurt her pride, her ego. I mean she is known for her ability to tempt, even amongst the Fallen.

But she could have been wrong. We only know about the Denarian-Fallen. We know very little about the Fallen that are in Hell. Harry possibly did resist her longer than any other victim. But did he resist longer than an other mortal to any of the other Fallen, Denarian-bound or otherwise? Who can say. There is only scant info for 2000 years. And one more thing, if she really was a good temptress, that whole scene actually feeds Harry's ego and she should have known it. If she did all that to convince him that he won, he might actually let his guard down. But that's another theory.

Mira - quite right. Harry did underestimate the Coins. And he is arrogant enough to believe that he could do it on his own, and that if he didn't he was morally weak. Michael even chastises him of this at the end of Cold Days (about his deal with Mab). I believe Thomas made a similar point at one stage, reminding Harry that even though he (thomas) is himself a monster but he manages it. Harry has a pathological need to believe he is morally good, and he must prove it to himself. Anything less, to his mind, makes him evil. Which is absurd. He sets a higher standard for himself than is reasonable, and if he falls short he allows that to be an excuse for acting out.

Well, I think the Angels might disagree with your interpretation of accepting the coin. Reread that scene with the Angel of Death. Your choices, however uniformed, are yours alone. Magic seems to work the same, see the whole thing about consequences of using magic are more important than intentions. Jim wrote a whole thing on it.

But yes, he didn't keep it. So he resisted. But he wouldn't have forever. if Mab hadn't been able to help, he would have take up Lasciel or another Coin.
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Offline morriswalters

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Re: Which mortal might become nemfected?
« Reply #49 on: December 16, 2019, 01:10:15 AM »
Just a note.  Both Nicodemus and Michael make exactly the same error in judgement, based on, what I suppose is prior experience.  They assume that the Shadow can't be removed.

Offline g33k

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Re: Which mortal might become nemfected?
« Reply #50 on: December 16, 2019, 02:00:55 AM »
Just a note.  Both Nicodemus and Michael make exactly the same error in judgement, based on, what I suppose is prior experience.  They assume that the Shadow can't be removed.

We know for a fact that Michael's knowledge is incomplete, but we can presume that Anduriel's is the best on Earth (and also presume it's fully-available to Nic).

I repeat:  having a shadow for that long is an unknown feat.  NOBODY saw that one coming!
 

Offline Yuillegan

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Re: Which mortal might become nemfected?
« Reply #51 on: December 16, 2019, 11:55:53 AM »
Nobody? Not TWG, the Archangels, the Mothers, anyone else with foresight?

And pretty sure that Vadderung said he knew more than Anduriel.
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Offline morriswalters

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Re: Which mortal might become nemfected?
« Reply #52 on: December 16, 2019, 03:28:58 PM »
We know for a fact that Michael's knowledge is incomplete, but we can presume that Anduriel's is the best on Earth (and also presume it's fully-available to Nic).

I repeat:  having a shadow for that long is an unknown feat.  NOBODY saw that one coming!
Your speculation doesn't appear to match the text. Michael tells Harry that if he gives up his magic that the shadow will fade.
Quote from: Proven Guilty
“Give up the coin of your own will. And set aside your power. If you do, Lasciel’s shadow will dwindle with it and waste away.”
This quote tells you two things.  One that someone has done it, else why did Michael suggest it. And given that we have some idea of how long Charity's magic took to dwindle, we know that they must have carried it for at least as long as Harry.

Also given that Anduriel doesn't have intellectus and assuming that the fallen can only communicate with each other when they have a rider and are in communication, then Anduriel's knowledge would have gaps as well.

Offline g33k

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Re: Which mortal might become nemfected?
« Reply #53 on: December 16, 2019, 04:19:54 PM »
Nobody? Not TWG, the Archangels, the Mothers, anyone else with foresight?

Nobody who has appeared "onscreen," who has given any indication within canon on the issue.

But sure... presumably the Almighty is always aware of this sort of thing!

And pretty sure that Vadderung said he knew more than Anduriel.

That doesn't mean Vadderung's knowledge is a strict superset of Anduriel's knowledge.  Anduriel may (probably does) know stuff that Vadderung does not (and, obviously, vice versa).

Stuff about Denarian Shadows is probably among the small set of information where the Fallen are more-informed than Vadderung.

Supernatural tac-ops is probably an area where -- broadly speaking -- Vadderung is more-informed than the Fallen are.
 

Offline g33k

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Re: Which mortal might become nemfected?
« Reply #54 on: December 16, 2019, 04:47:13 PM »
Your speculation doesn't appear to match the text. Michael tells Harry that if he gives up his magic that the shadow will fade.

Quote
“Give up the coin of your own will. And set aside your power. If you do, Lasciel’s shadow will dwindle with it and waste away.”

This quote tells you two things.  One that someone has done it, else why did Michael suggest it. And given that we have some idea of how long Charity's magic took to dwindle, we know that they must have carried it for at least as long as Harry.

Also given that Anduriel doesn't have intellectus and assuming that the fallen can only communicate with each other when they have a rider and are in communication, then Anduriel's knowledge would have gaps as well.

This brings up a very interesting point (TYVM).  I'm going to start another thread based on your insights here!

But to this point:  Michael tells Harry how to disempower the shadow AND the wizard, not JUST the Shadow.

What Harry did (that hadn't been done before) was continue to operate and grow in power without ever actually DOING anything about the Shadow.  He put the coin into a circle; occasionally he threatened to "lock" the shadow in a cage of his will.  But he did none of the other things (not only did he NOT set aside his power, he ALSO never turned his coin over to the Church) that he knew (or had reason to hope) might otherwise weaken the Shadow's presence in his mind.

This is the thing -- continuing to exercise his power and will... AND his pride and other sins; all while the Shadow was active -- that makes Harry's achievement unique.

As demonstrated by Nic and Anduriel, and explicitly stated by Lash:  it had never been done.


Offline morriswalters

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Re: Which mortal might become nemfected?
« Reply #55 on: December 16, 2019, 05:05:52 PM »
Well have it your way.  A statement by Mab accredited to Uriel states it better.
Quote from: Small Favor
“‘The burned hand teaches best,’” I read aloud. I made my way back to my seat and shook my head. “What the hell is that supposed to mean?”
Grimalkin mewled from the pew beside me, “That your experience with resisting the shadow of the Fallen One has garnered the respect of the Watchman, my Emissary.”

Offline Mira

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Re: Which mortal might become nemfected?
« Reply #56 on: December 16, 2019, 08:04:08 PM »
Well have it your way.  A statement by Mab accredited to Uriel states it better.

Indeed,  Harry never stopped resisting once he understood what he was going up against.  He
never gave in, oh sometimes temptation carried him up to the line, but he never crossed it, this is
what changed Lasciel into Lash over time.   It shows strength of will that got Uriel's attention.

Offline Bad Alias

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Re: Which mortal might become nemfected?
« Reply #57 on: December 16, 2019, 11:31:20 PM »
Is there any evidence that anyone has resisted a Shadow as long or longer than Harry? There is substantial evidence that no one has. At the very least, 1/30th of the Fallen in a position to know have never heard of it.

My question is how was Harry able to resist? I have two thoughts.

His soul gaze of Rasmussen. Harry always knew exactly how awful being a Denarian would be. I doubt many people have had a shadow and a soul gaze of Denarian. That probably gave him a lot of motivation to resist.

Cassius's death curse. His curse was for Harry to "die alone." What's that even mean? What's the worst thing Cassius could thing off? Being separated from the power of the Fallen. I think maybe his death curse did something to weaken Lash's influence of Harry. That way Harry wouldn't take up the coin, and he would "die alone."

Offline Mira

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Re: Which mortal might become nemfected?
« Reply #58 on: December 16, 2019, 11:56:07 PM »
Quote
What Harry did (that hadn't been done before) was continue to operate and grow in power without ever actually DOING anything about the Shadow.  He put the coin into a circle; occasionally he threatened to "lock" the shadow in a cage of his will.  But he did none of the other things (not only did he NOT set aside his power, he ALSO never turned his coin over to the Church) that he knew (or had reason to hope) might otherwise weaken the Shadow's presence in his mind.

   In the end though, Harry did turn the coin over to the Church.  It is possible that the reason he did  was the death of Lash.  With her death any possible influence the coin might have had on him no matter how slight was now gone.

Offline KurtinStGeorge

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Re: Which mortal might become nemfected?
« Reply #59 on: December 20, 2019, 01:43:17 AM »
Wow!  There have been some interesting conversations going on in this thread since the last time I checked about ten days ago.  Unfortunately, I won’t be able to address many of the most interesting ideas I’ve read, at least not today.  Before I go into who I think is the most likely candidate to either become nemfected or who is already nemfected I want to explain some of my thinking about this issue and also address a character several people have mentioned as a possible candidate, Elaine.

Let’s deal with Elaine first.  In my mind Elaine is a backup character who could be nemfected.  Her story about becoming Justin’s thrall is sketchy.  She has kept other things about herself hidden from Harry.  When Harry asked Elaine how she developed her healing ability, she pretty much dodged the question.  There was also a time when Harry was talking to Bob about mind control; I don’t remember which book, and Harry used Elaine being enthralled by Just DuMorne as an example, and I don’t remember Bob’s exact words, but his reply to Harry sounded skeptical or even condescending.  Bob said something like, “Oh yah, Elaine being enthralled, I guess so.”  That reply was just awkward enough to draw my attention; but not Harry’s, and nothing more was said about it.  Finally, Elaine had access to Aurora.  So, Elaine is a candidate to have infected Aurora with the Nemesis flue.  We can even go further and guess that the Nemesis bug was passed from Justin to Elaine to Aurora.  (Thank you g33k for pointing this out.)  We don’t know of any other characters who had regular access to the late Summer Lady so that makes her an especially strong candidate, and that’s my problem.

It’s too easy for us to zero in on Elaine.  That makes me think she could be a red herring to distract us.  In a future Dresden Files story I could see Harry become aware that Nemesis; or its agents, are always one step ahead of him and the most likely way for this to occur is if one of Harry’s associates is a Nemesis agent; though perhaps an unwilling one and maybe even unaware what they are doing.  In this hypothetical future novel, clues start pointing towards Elaine and we already have our own suspicions about her true loyalty.  Then wham!  Harry and by extension the readers, are blindsided when the true nemfected agent is revealed.  An alternative is Harry uses his detective skills to unmask the real nemesis agent, but we are left believing its Elaine right up until Harry reveals the true culprit or victim.  Finally, Elaine has already had an opportunity to back-stab Harry, and do so at a critical moment.  If Elaine is nemfected, why did she let Harry get through the poison thorns to confront Aurora in Summer Knight?  As I stated above, there is a sketchy and perhaps even a hidden dark side to Elaine, I’m just not convinced it comes from her being nemfected.

Now to get to the meat of the matter, the original OP I wrote.  I was somewhat deceptive; by omission, when I wrote it.  I wanted to see if anyone else would take the next step by answering an unasked question.  I said question #2 was a two-part question, but it is; in reality, a three-part question.  Part 2 was, “And why do you think Nemesis might target this individual?”  Part 3 is, “Why would Jim Butcher choose this character to be targeted?” (g33k came very close to stating this in one post.)
 
Jim is, in one sense, the actual mind of Nemesis.  He must determine its rational for nemfection, but Jim has other goals as the writer of the story.  Of course, a good writer wants to keep us in suspense.  Like a stage magician, the writer doesn’t want to give away their secrets and tell us how the magic is done.  However, Jim has revealed to us; over and over again, what he does when he writes a Dresden Files novel.  I heard him repeat it this past July when I saw him at WesterCon in Layton, Utah.  When Jim is asked why he likes to torture his characters, he replies, “I’m not torturing Harry, Murphy or anyone else in the Dresden Files.  They are fictional and can’t really be tortured.  I’m torturing you, the readers.”  So, I believe the way to determine who is most likely character for nemfection is to ask, which character is going to hurt the most when you; and Harry, find out?  Also, there must a believable reason why Nemesis would target this character.  With those two criteria in mind, I think the best answer is Thomas Raith.  Now if you’ve read this far, thank you for doing so.  You’ve read enough of my meandering thoughts for today.  Tomorrow (I hope) I will go into detail about how I think nemfection works; specifically with Thomas, the clues that reveal that Thomas is already nemfected and how a nemfected Thomas fits in with Nemesis' long-term goals.   
« Last Edit: December 20, 2019, 01:48:58 AM by KurtinStGeorge »
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