Author Topic: ivy and the library of alexander  (Read 5507 times)

Offline pcpoet

  • Conversationalist
  • **
  • Posts: 837
  • life is a dream
    • View Profile
ivy and the library of alexander
« on: August 26, 2019, 05:25:04 AM »
was thinking about the burning of the library of alexander.....my question is was the burning of the library of alexander caused by the oblivion war.
I am who I am that's all that I am from my head to my toe that's all that I am.

Offline Kindler

  • Posty McPostington
  • ***
  • Posts: 1139
    • View Profile
Re: ivy and the library of alexander
« Reply #1 on: August 26, 2019, 02:49:23 PM »
I mean, sure, I could see that. Why not?

I should point out that it was burned mostly by accident. Julius Caesar burned his ships at the port, and the fire spread. That burned a bunch of the scrolls there, but not all of them (in fact, like twenty years after that, there are rumors that Marc Antony hooked up Cleopatra with thousands of scrolls from it). We don't know that it was totally destroyed, in fact, just that, if it still existed in the 270s AD, it would have been destroyed by Roman Emperor Aurelian when he sacked Alexandria and destroyed that part of the city. Basically, Rome lost interest in that particular library over the course of a couple of centuries, to the point that scholars simply stopped mentioning the library.

In other words, the "burning of the Library of Alexandria" is one of those events in history that has been blown out of proportion to the actual damage that occurred.

But I could totally buy that those particular tens of thousands of scrolls were burned on the order of the Archive.

Offline Yuillegan

  • White Council
  • Posty McPostington
  • *****
  • Posts: 1384
  • Forum Moderator
    • View Profile
Re: ivy and the library of alexander
« Reply #2 on: August 26, 2019, 10:38:11 PM »
Or, alternatively, the Archive is the Library of Alexandria. And many other libraries too - but that event was the catalyst for the creation of the Archive. While we are not sure who created the Archive, it was someone (or a group of someones) with extraordinary power and foresight. Considering Merlin did save knowledge from that event, set up the Catholic Church and founded the White Council - it is not inconceivable that he (and perhaps others) created the Archive. We are not even sure how long the Archive has existed, but I believe it was during ancient times. Perhaps this is why.

Even if my theory is wrong, and the Archive is that old (I believe there used to be something about the Oracle at Delphi associated with her) I don't think she would have ordered the Library's destruction. Why would Merlin go and rescue knowledge if that were the case? Unless it was collateral damage or he wasn't as much of a good guy as we think...
Hi, I'm a moderator. We're here to help. Please remain calm. Don't go outdoors.

Offline Bad Alias

  • Posty McPostington
  • ***
  • Posts: 2208
    • View Profile
Re: ivy and the library of alexander
« Reply #3 on: August 26, 2019, 10:59:18 PM »
The way I hear it is that the proper response to your question would be "which burning of the Library of Alexandria?" Because it happened more than once. Like a lot more.

@Yuillegan: Merlin may not have known about the Oblivion War. Wizards are typically kept out of it. However, Merlin wasn't a typical wizard, and Demonreach may be an important part of the Oblivion War. I'll quote the section that makes me think that.
(click to show/hide)
That's from Dresden Files Accelerated. It's a "briefing" to Marcone from Ivy.

Offline g33k

  • Posty McPostington
  • ***
  • Posts: 2366
    • View Profile
Re: ivy and the library of alexander
« Reply #4 on: August 27, 2019, 05:27:42 PM »
... I should point out that it was burned mostly by accident ...
Never expect that mere historical fact will limit what JB makes canonical in the Dresdenverse!  It wouldn't surprise me if JB decided that the entire war was a roundabout way of getting an arsonist into place in Alexandria... 

... something about the Oracle at Delphi associated with her ...
  The "Pythia" (oracle) at Delphi was the Archive.  At least, that's the White Council's information, which I'll assume to be correct until/unless other canon contravene's it.

Offline Kindler

  • Posty McPostington
  • ***
  • Posts: 1139
    • View Profile
Re: ivy and the library of alexander
« Reply #5 on: August 27, 2019, 07:42:56 PM »
Eh, the DV isn't the real world, so it doesn't bother me when he uses examples that are common cultural touchpoints. Everyone knows about The Burning of the Library of Alexandria, after all, so it's not like Jim would bother to fact check something like that. And even if he did, reports about what happened are certainly not definitive; we don't know how much was lost when Caesar's fire spread (tens of thousands, but the Library could have held upward of half a million scrolls).

Like I said, we don't know that it was even still in operation when that area of Alexandria was destroyed around 270something AD—we just know that Roman scholars had stopped writing about it by then.

During Julius's time, that Library was one of the most well-respected places for scholarship (not really a college, but I don't know what else to call it). It'd be like burning down Harvard, or Cambridge, or Oxford. Only what's lost in the Library fire is quite literally irreplaceable.

I guess it'd be closer to, say, the Internet losing 5-25% of all of its unique information over the course of a couple of days (talking about stuff with no backups or hard copies, not just Wikipedia losing databases).

Anyway, over the following couple of centuries after Caesar's fire, Roman scholarship started focusing elsewhere. Alexandrian scholarship kinda just fell off the written record.

Jim probably refers to the 270s AD "guaranteed" destruction, now that I think about it. It fits way better with Merlin's proposed timeline (saving scrolls, starting the White council after the collapse of the Western Roman Empire, forming the Catholic Church during the Early Middle Ages, and keeping Amorrachius for Arthur (depending on which Arthur Jim is going with for the DV. The Historia Brittonum specifically mentions Arthur at the Battle of Badon Hill, which could have happened (if at all) anywhere from 430 AD to as late as 530 AD. Basically, Saxons invade, Arthur organizes resistance, the Britons win, and a Legend is born (though not written about for at least three hundred years)).

Though that gets all messed up if Jim adopts the Sarmatian/Lucius Artorias Castus theory, which has been popularized over the past several decades (based on wobbly evidence that really requires some leaps of logic) and is best known for producing the wonderfully fun and wildly inaccurate Clive Owen/Natalie Portman King Arthur film. It's worth watching for Mads Mikkelson's Tristan and Ray Stevenson being appropriately badass as Dagonet, at least. But that places Arthur at 410 AD and casts him as a Romano-Briton Auxilia Prefect.

The trouble is that the Sarmatian theory is based on a sarcophagus for Lucius Artorias Castus (whose Legion did serve in Brittanny) that's dated to 180-230 AD. It should be noted that this particular sarcophagus is in Croatia, so not exactly British Clay. It's based entirely on the idea that this particular Sarmatian officer was so popular in Britain that, centuries after his life and death, he was memorialized into a fictionalized account of the Battle of Badon Hill by Nennius—basically, Nennius created a hero out of a real dude who lived centuries ago.

In other words, the Sarmatian theory doesn't really work, as far as I'm concerned, so I hope Jim isn't going with the Artorias Castus concept.

That kinda got far afield of my original point. But yeah, it's probably during Emperor Aurelian's attack on Alexandria in the 270s that Merlin intervened.

Offline SerScot

  • Posty McPostington
  • ***
  • Posts: 1585
    • View Profile
Re: ivy and the library of alexander
« Reply #6 on: August 31, 2019, 07:35:35 PM »
Is Ivy a primary target in “the Oblivion War”?
"Maybe there will be a laundry emergency at the Carpenter house, and Harry shows up with detergent saying, 'I am Harry of the White Council. And I come back to you now at the turn of the TideTM.'" -  Vairelome 9/25/2011

Mab =/= Molly

Malcom =/= KotC

Offline Avernite

  • Conversationalist
  • **
  • Posts: 731
    • View Profile
Re: ivy and the library of alexander
« Reply #7 on: August 31, 2019, 08:50:33 PM »
Is Ivy a primary target in “the Oblivion War”?
Probably not. It's a shadow war, after all, and repeated attacks on one of the supernatural powerhouses would get notice.

Plus, the Archive is probably going to smash anyone who shows - a strong White Court vampire can apparently be a useful bruiser in the conflict, and... the Archive is a few power levels above Thomas.

Offline g33k

  • Posty McPostington
  • ***
  • Posts: 2366
    • View Profile
Re: ivy and the library of alexander
« Reply #8 on: September 01, 2019, 12:13:24 AM »
Is Ivy a primary target in “the Oblivion War”?

I think she WOULD BE if she were known.

But I think the entities she's tasked to Obliviate(tm) are already loosely-enough connected to the mortal world that they have shit-all awareness of it, in general, and the Oracle probably works almost as hard keeping herself unknown as she keeps her targets.

I doubt she often "takes the field" as she did in the Shedd, so as to not become visible to the enemies in an engagement.


Offline Firestarter

  • Conversationalist
  • **
  • Posts: 140
    • View Profile
Re: ivy and the library of alexander
« Reply #9 on: November 11, 2019, 12:14:20 PM »
I think she WOULD BE if she were known.

But I think the entities she's tasked to Obliviate(tm) are already loosely-enough connected to the mortal world that they have shit-all awareness of it, in general, and the Oracle probably works almost as hard keeping herself unknown as she keeps her targets.

I doubt she often "takes the field" as she did in the Shedd, so as to not become visible to the enemies in an engagement.



A living magical construct known to all other signatories of the Unseelie Accords manages to hide itself from superpowerful entities that can only be fought by not even spreading information about them.

Yeah, sounds plausible.
... hear me roar ;)

Offline Bad Alias

  • Posty McPostington
  • ***
  • Posts: 2208
    • View Profile
Re: ivy and the library of alexander
« Reply #10 on: November 11, 2019, 04:23:34 PM »
A living magical construct known to all other signatories of the Unseelie Accords manages to hide itself from superpowerful entities that can only be fought by not even spreading information about them.

Yeah, sounds plausible.
Her stated purpose is the opposite of her actual purpose. Everyone thinks she is there to preserve knowledge. Her actual purpose is to destroy certain knowledge. So far as we know, only Ivy knows her true purpose.

Her enemies in the Oblivion War would probably seek to preserve her, not destroy her.