Elaine, Trojan Horse? "It was the knife..."

[morriswalters]

It's odd don't you think, that everyone knew, but Harry? Mab certainly did. And so did Rashid.  Harry made sure he couldn't know.  And what was Mab's most telling point?  It was that she had put Molly out of the reach of the Council, something that Harry couldn't do.  Mab doesn't blame Harry, she simply juxtaposes what she had done to Molly against what Harry had been responsible for.

[Avernite]

Harry's insistence that the WC should be finding these budding wizards/potential warlocks applies to an organization with access to way more resources than Harry will ever have.

Also way more targets. If Harry can't find one in the closest group of children he has to a family, what hope does anyone have of scoring a 100% among people that don't know them who would rather keep their kids away from the weirdo in a robe.

Of course there was a Fallen Angel twisting Harry's mind at the time, so we can't be SURE it was all Harry.

[Mira]

Also way more targets. If Harry can't find one in the closest group of children he has to a family, what hope does anyone have of scoring a 100% among people that don't know them who would rather keep their kids away from the weirdo in a robe.

Of course there was a Fallen Angel twisting Harry's mind at the time, so we can't be SURE it was all Harry.

  Harry hadn't been around this family for a couple of years because of Michael and Lasciel's shadow in his head.  If you are going to blame anyone, blame Charity who kept her talent and resultant run in with possible warlockhood to herself.  She was so against it there was no way Molly could have gone to her when it first happened.   If she hero worshiped Harry to the extent that Mab claimed, you'd think she would have, but she didn't..  Like the Korean Kid, out of ignorance or arrogance kept her talent to herself. 

It's odd don't you think, that everyone knew, but Harry? Mab certainly did. And so did Rashid.  Harry made sure he couldn't know.  And what was Mab's most telling point?  It was that she had put Molly out of the reach of the Council, something that Harry couldn't do.  Mab doesn't blame Harry, she simply juxtaposes what she had done to Molly against what Harry had been responsible for.

Rashid didn't even know Molly until she was well grown, I doubt that he would have ignored her budding warlockhood.  Then again if he was in the know about her, why didn't he put his head on the line for her and teach her himself? No, Harry couldn't make Molly the Winter Lady, but he did save her head and put his own on the line to save it.  Also the only one who could have ended her time under the Doom was Molly.  She never completely reformed as we saw in Turn Coat. 

Harry's insistence that the WC should be finding these budding wizards/potential warlocks applies to an organization with access to way more resources than Harry will ever have.

Yes, and there in lies the problem..  The whole magical world is undercover, there is no serious education on the problem.   So a kid like the Korean Kid or Molly slip through the cracks and don't show up on any radar until it is too late or nearly too late, damage is done and they lose their heads.

  Charity says in Proven Guilty that her talent started to show when she was about sixteen.  It appears that that was about the time that Molly's talent began to show as well.  Harry wasn't around the family at that time, so how could he know?  Because she came close to losing her own head, she had received warnings from Wardens, Charity tried to tell her how dangerous it was to mess with. Her answer was for Molly never to use it and it would go away, Molly disagreed and ran away from home.  Molly didn't go to Harry for help, and neither did Charity.  Not even Michael knew that Charity had talent and nearly went warlock.

I believe you are confusing "mistakes" Harry made by being too gentle with Molly's training with her going warlock before she became his apprentice.  The first he is responsible for, the second he is not.

[morriswalters]

Rashid didn't even know Molly until she was well grown, I doubt that he would have ignored her budding warlockhood.  Then again if he was in the know about her, why didn't he put his head on the line for her and teach her himself? No, Harry couldn't make Molly the Winter Lady, but he did save her head and put his own on the line to save it.  Also the only one who could have ended her time under the Doom was Molly.  She never completely reformed as we saw in Turn Coat. 

I suspect the Gatekeeper doesn't have the spare time to teach an apprentice.  However had he not intervened, along with Mab, Molly would have been shortened.  Do you think it was an accident that one of Molly's victims was in the can when Pell was attacked in Proven Guilty?

Also isn't a ounce of prevention better than a pound of cure.

[Mira]

I suspect the Gatekeeper doesn't have the spare time to teach an apprentice.  However had he not intervened, along with Mab, Molly would have been shortened.  Do you think it was an accident that one of Molly's victims was in the can when Pell was attacked in Proven Guilty?

Also isn't a ounce of prevention better than a pound of cure.

   That is no excuse on the Gatekeeper's part, it is the same excuse that the Merlin gave Harry about the Korean Kid.   So the result is, lots of potential wizards go warlock and get the chop because the wizards don't have the time.   So yeah, an ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure, but if he didn't have the time he could have given Harry a heads up about Molly.   It was still Harry that faced off against the Merlin at her trial, it was Harry that insisted that the Gatekeeper cast his vote, he took the hint and stalled for time because as a Senior Council member he was the only one that could. But until  Harry's insistence he kept silent,  he said nothing when Morgan moved to chop her head off until Harry insisted he cast his vote.

You are still missing the point,  Harry hadn't had any contact with the Carpenter family for two years.
Charity never let anyone know, not even Michael that she ever had magical talent that might be passed on.    When her talent manifested itself all she wanted Molly to do was abandon it.  She never asked Harry for help with Molly, because of her own fears and prejudices against magic.

We've seen in Ghost Story that Mab is very capable of twisting things if it helps her to control Harry.  As Uriel told him, Mab was lying she cannot control him liked she claimed.  She is twisting the truth here as well, he isn't responsible for Molly going warlock.   Yes, she was into hero worship and had a major teen aged crush on Harry, but that isn't his fault.  Unless you are saying he shouldn't have saved Charity's life, helped Michael fight evil, recover from serious wounds at their house, let them name their youngest for him.  If Molly had turned out vanilla human, it would all have come to nothing.  If Harry had known it was possible that she had talent, he may have conducted himself a little differently towards her, but since Charity kept her secret and more or less forbade any serious debate, especially from him about magic.  It didn't happen.  In the end it still may not have made any difference.   One good reason why Mab was putting the guild trip on Harry is she might fear the Molly/Harry combo, they could threaten her or at least mount successful challenges to her rule. 

[Bad Alias]

Harry complains that the Council isn't doing enough to find all the kids going warlock. He expects the Council to locate some random kid developing powers, but he wasn't able to stop A KID HE KNOWS AND WHOSE HOUSE HE OCCASIONALLY SLEEPS AT from going warlock.

It turns out it's pretty hard. Whether it happened "right under Harry's nose" is a debate about what that phrase means, not Morris's point.

Molly didn't go to Dresden BECAUSE of the hero worship thing. It's stated in the text.

Rashid probably didn't know Molly was going to do black magic until it was too late to stop her or until she had already done it.

If any one person is to blame, it is Charity.

The Council should be blamed because they could make it easy for anyone to discover the Laws of Magic. I'm sure they could promulgate something that one: a budding practitioner could recognize as "real," two: could be easily discovered by said practitioner, and three: included the Laws without tearing down the masquerade. Would every soon to be warlock discover yourawizardwhatnow.com and stop? No. But, depending on how it's done, most probably would.

[Mira]

Molly didn't go to Dresden BECAUSE of the hero worship thing. It's stated in the text.

As stated by Mab, but that doesn't make any sense does it?  Molly wasn't an instant warlock, you'd think the first person she'd go to would be Harry when it awoke if it was about hero worship.   I still think it was more of a guilt trip that Mab put on Harry, which we all know is easy to do. Let's also get this straight, Harry isn't responsible for Molly's hero worship.  Let's face it, Molly thought Harry being a wizard was cool, Harry did do heroic things along with her father, saved her mother, her baby brother is named after him, Harry isn't a father figure, he is young enough to inspire romantic fantasies...  You think Harry deliberately set any of that up so Molly would see him as a heroic figure?  Mab may be that manipulative to engineer such a thing, but our Harry isn't.

Harry complains that the Council isn't doing enough to find all the kids going warlock. He expects the Council to locate some random kid developing powers, but he wasn't able to stop A KID HE KNOWS AND WHOSE HOUSE HE OCCASIONALLY SLEEPS AT from going warlock.

Except he hadn't been near the Carpenter home for a couple of years!   It sounds like Molly's talent awakened about the same time that her mother's did, approximately 16...  So if she didn't show any talent when Harry was in and about the Carpenter house, how is he to know?  As stated the HUGE SECRET here is Charity kept her talent to herself.  What is more when her daughter came to her, she proceeded to alienate her because she wanted her to ignore it so it would go away.

If any one person is to blame, it is Charity.

Yes, at the end of the day, that is where the blame lies.  If she had been honest about her own experience and how dangerous untrained talent can be when Molly first came to her.  It might have turned out differently.  If Charity accepted the fact that being a wizard like Harry isn't an evil thing.  If she hadn't made the mistake of thinking or rather had been more honest with herself that her own talent didn't fade because she simply ignored it but instead actively suppressed it, so told Molly to handle her talent in that manner.. Though suppressing this new found power was the last thing Molly wanted to do, things might have turned out differently.  If Charity could have overcome her own prejudices against Harry and what he is and asked for help in the beginning, things might have turned out differently for Molly.  And in Proven Guilty when Harry confronts her about coming clean about her talent, Charity admits it, and still wanted it kept secret, even from Michael.

[Bad Alias]

As stated by Mab, but that doesn't make any sense does it?

It's also in Ch. 47 of Proven Guilty, as stated by Harry.

[I figured] that you wouldn't want to come up to your favorite rock star and start fumbling around on a guitar so that the first thing he thinks about you is that you're incompetent."
She shivered and blushed even more. "No. It wasn't like that..."
Sure it was.

Let's also get this straight, Harry isn't responsible for Molly's hero worship.  ...  You think Harry deliberately set any of that up so Molly would see him as a heroic figure?

When did I say any of that?

Except he hadn't been near the Carpenter home for a couple of years!

The point is that Harry is wrong that the Council could just find all these young talents before it was too late. He couldn't when he already knew the kid. How does he expect the Council to do what he couldn't when they don't even know the kid?

Your arguing that Harry isn't responsible. I, and I believe Morris, are arguing that Harry was wrong to think it was such an easy thing for the Council to find all these budding talents who the Council had no relationship. Harry having a pre-existing relationship with Molly and still not noticing is just evidence that it's not so easy to find these kids. I'm not saying it's evidence that it's Harry's fault she tried black magic. If you disagree with that argument, articulate that disagreement. I'm not going to defend a position that I'm accused of holding. (There's probably a word with less negative connotation than accused, but I have to run).

[Mira]

The point is that Harry is wrong that the Council could just find all these young talents before it was too late. He couldn't when he already knew the kid. How does he expect the Council to do what he couldn't when they don't even know the kid?

But that still does not make him responsible for Molly since he wasn't around when her talent showed itself.   Having said that,  when he got on the Merlin over the Korean Kid he was frustrated and very upset to witness a kid get the chop.. Something he nearly fell victim to..  Actually both have a good point, the Merlin that there are too many kids with the talent, too few wizards to mentor them or step up to put their own heads on the line if the kid has begun the slide into darkness.  Harry in that each potential warlock should have a fair trial, because they have devolved somewhat into a kangaroo court.   Not even the Merlin can put a head back on the shoulders of some poor kid if a mistake is made, and while some are not salvageable, ones that are shouldn't lose his or her head because a wizard doesn't have the balls to step up and take responsibility.

When did I say any of that?

You said that Molly didn't go to Harry for help because of her hero worship of him.  I said that made no sense, one would think it would give her more reason to go to him.  What I am saying Harry never encouraged Molly's hero worship of him in the first place.   He is what he is, as a young girl than teen, she thought being a wizard was cool, doing what Harry can do is cool, his bravery is cool, and last but not least while not as handsome perhaps as Thomas, Harry is still a good looking young guy.  Natural for her to be smitten, I seriously doubt that Harry could do much about any of that.

    [I figured] that you wouldn't want to come up to your favorite rock star and start fumbling around on a guitar so that the first thing he thinks about you is that you're incompetent."
    She shivered and blushed even more. "No. It wasn't like that..."
    Sure it was.

It's Harry's theory, but Molly, herself, says it wasn't.  Even if he insists that it was, but he never gave her a chance to give her reason..  That is a mistake on his part, a good teacher should always listen and not jump to conclusions.  He asked and answered his own question to her and assumed he was right..  He might be, but he needs to listen to Molly as well.   Again while some of what Harry said to Molly may be true, the real blame falls on Charity.  She is Molly's mother, she is the one that was headed down the warlock path before she was save from the dragon by Michael.  She is the one so afraid of magic and prejudiced against Harry.   Molly went to her first,  what Harry describes is how a young teen might see it, not wanting to go to her idol..  But Molly did go to her mother first,Charity is an adult, Molly is her child,  she could either have packed Molly up and went to see Harry, or go to Harry herself for advice on how to handle Molly's awoken talent.  She did neither, she alienated Molly with her prejudice and fears,  who then ran away in a rebellious state of mind that only peers her age as she saw it could understand.  I think the real reason she didn't go to Harry first off wasn't the explanation that Harry gave, but because she knew he'd take her right back to her parents, the last place she wanted to go.

[morriswalters]

It isn't about blame or responsibility.  From Mab's perspective the story plays out exactly as she states it.  Whatever Harry's intent, Mab's dialog in Cold Days represents the end point.  The way things turned out.  Harry may not have meant it to work out that way, but he's the only one who could know that.

Why Molly didn't go to Harry is about secrets and trusting.  Harry's, Charity's and Molly's. Harry's fear of being tainted by the coin, Charity's shame, around her gift.  Molly's teenage insecurity.  Harry pulls away and becomes distant.  Charity can't tell Michael why she and Molly are at loggerheads.  Molly's natural fears and inhibitions as an adolescent.  JB creates a perfect storm, with each being driven by who and what they are.  None of them able to completely trust the people in their lives who could help them.

IMO one of the major points of starting and ending in the warehouse is to show Harry's journey to understanding the problem of identifying proto wizards before getting to the point of needing a trial.  I think this is the basis of  Harry's thinking when he decides to create the Paranet.  Many eyes.

[Mira]

IMO one of the major points of starting and ending in the warehouse is to show Harry's journey to understanding the problem of identifying proto wizards before getting to the point of needing a trial.  I think this is the basis of  Harry's thinking when he decides to create the Paranet.  Many eyes.

Are you sure that Harry created it?  I was under the impression it existed before he heard about it.

It isn't about blame or responsibility.  From Mab's perspective the story plays out exactly as she states it.  Whatever Harry's intent, Mab's dialog in Cold Days represents the end point.  The way things turned out.  Harry may not have meant it to work out that way, but he's the only one who could know that.

It is about context, it is about control on Mab's part, thus the guilt trip on Harry. We know that Harry can be very irrational about taking the blame for things that are not really his fault.  "And it is all your fault!" Were the lies whispered to him by Lasciel, remember?  Harry was totally pissed at Mab after what happened to Molly.   Mab the master manipulator knows her knight very well and twisted what happened between Harry and Molly over the years to her advantage, shutting him up effectively.  There were just enough grains of truth in what she said that she wasn't lying exactly, but neither was she telling the truth, and without an archangel standing by to whisper to the contrary, Harry bought it.   She then said that she had done something Harry couldn't, put Molly out of reach of the Council by making her Winter Lady.. True, but that doesn't mean that Molly wouldn't have redeemed herself in time.   So saved from the Council, but what of her very human soul?  Mab was human once too.

[morriswalters]

"You should know," I said. "I got reparations out of the White Court. A weregild for their dependents."
She blinked at me. "How?"
"My boyish charm. Can you get me contact information for the victims' families? I'll get somebody to get the money to them."
"Yes," she said. "Some of them didn't have any dependents. Like Anna."
I grunted and nodded. "I thought we might use that money to build something."
Elaine frowned at me. "Oh?"
I nodded. "We use the money. We expand the Ordo, build a network of contacts. A hotline for middle-class practitioners. We contact groups like the Ordo in cities all around the country. We put the word out that if people are in some kind of supernatural fix, they can get word of it onto the network. Maybe if something like this starts happening again, we can hear about it early and stomp on the fire before it grows. We teach self-defense classes. We help people coordinate, cooperate, support one another. We act."

[Bad Alias]

Quote from: Mira

Let's also get this straight, Harry isn't responsible for Molly's hero worship.  ...  You think Harry deliberately set any of that up so Molly would see him as a heroic figure?

Me:

When did I say any of that?

You said that Molly didn't go to Harry for help because of her hero worship of him.

Clarification: When did I say "Harry is responsible for Molly's hero worship. I think Harry deliberately set any of that up so Molly would see him as a heroic figure."

Also, Charity isn't the only one at fault. Molly is as well. She had a perfect resource for learning about magic. She knows the world of magic is real. She knows it is dangerous. She isn't an innocent victim of circumstance. Are there mitigating factors? Are others also to blame? Sure, but that doesn't matter once actions with necessary consequences are taken.

Also, what Morris said.

I do think that Mab believed that Harry intended Molly to become his loyal vassal because faeries are alien in their thinking and sometimes they just can't understand mortals. Put another way, I think Mab thought Harry did that because that's what Mab would have done. I'm not willing to dig up the scene to analyze it right now.

[Mira]

I do think that Mab believed that Harry intended Molly to become his loyal vassal because faeries are alien in their thinking and sometimes they just can't understand mortals. Put another way, I think Mab thought Harry did that because that's what Mab would have done. I'm not willing to dig up the scene to analyze it right now.

   Yes, it is, but at the same time I think she also understands that by saying it she is guilt tripping Harry, thus controlling him.

Clarification: When did I say "Harry is responsible for Molly's hero worship. I think Harry deliberately set any of that up so Molly would see him as a heroic figure."

Huh?   Are you saying he did deliberately or he didn't?

Also, Charity isn't the only one at fault. Molly is as well. She had a perfect resource for learning about magic. She knows the world of magic is real. She knows it is dangerous. She isn't an innocent victim of circumstance. Are there mitigating factors? Are others also to blame? Sure, but that doesn't matter once actions with necessary consequences are taken.

No body says she is..  She knows it, that is why she didn't agree with Harry's explanation as to
why she didn't go to him right off, it's complicated, all mixed up with teenage emotions, hormones, and family dynamics.

[Bad Alias]

Huh?   Are you saying he did deliberately or he didn't?

You implied I believed Harry deliberately entrapped Molly by doing all the things Mab said in Cold Days because I said Harry had a better opportunity to stop Molly from going warlock than the Council has at stopping some random kid from going warlock. One thing has nothing to do with the other, so I asked when did I say that Harry deliberately entrapped Molly. You responded by saying that I said Molly didn't go to Harry because of her hero worship of him.