Should representatives from the Paranet attend peace talks

[dspringer1]

This is an important question.   They are an organization that did not exist a few years ago, but was clearly impacted to some extent by the war between the White Council and the Red Court.   They are certainly impacted by the post war chaos/Formor. 

Arguments in Favor
*  It is a way to establish themselves as a distinct power and set the stage for eventual accord status.  Right now they receive no protection from the accords beyond some (minor) indirect benefits from the White Council.  Given how hesitant the White Council is to act, those benefits are pretty minor today. 

*  It is the only way that can establish territory -- aka exclude supernatural predators - from their more strongly held territories.   The results of the Peace Talks may end up enshrining into the agreement valuable protections for the lesser powers -- protections that might not happen if they are not there speaking up.

Arguments Opposed
*  They are not signatories of the Accord.   This is true, but not sure it is relevant.  Logically any participant in a war should have a right to discuss how to end that war and I am sure the Accords allow for non-members to participate when relevant.  Proving relevance might be an issue, but the option must exist.    The Fey are very careful to consider all possibilities when creating something like the Accords. 

*  The lesser talents represented by the Paranet are already represented in the peace talks by the White Council.  This is arguably true as well, but the White Council relationship is more indirect than direct.  If the Paranet insisted, I suspect they can represent themselves.   

*  Representing themselves may establish precedents that prohibit the White Council from aiding lesser talents in the future.   This is a serious concerns. 

*  The visibility involved in attending the Peace Talks as representatives of the Paranet/lesser talents would simply be dangerous for the organization - providing a lot of unwanted attention and few if any benefits.   This is a fair argument - although people can differ on what gains they will get to justify this cost. 

*  Lesser powered individuals are weak -- and supernatural nations are predators.   Visibility = Danger for the representatives personally. 

[Con]

I mean Paranetters are already fairly victimised, hunted down and isolated. Them becoming a Signatory of the Accords, might give them some more organisation and standing however having said that The Fellowship of St Giles and the Venatores had/have been around for centuries but are still not signatories of the Accords.

[Bad Alias]

It is a way to establish themselves as a distinct power.

I'd imagine they'd have to establish themselves as a power first. I'm not sure if they've done that at this point, but that's the first step. No one is going to take them seriously until they've demonstrated power.

[Arjan]

They just are not powerful enough. They are prey or to be used and/or protected, not a significant player. Nobody important wants to make peace with them.

[123Chikadee]

Yeah, it sounds like its a catch-22. Can't get recognized without power, but they don't have the power to be recognized. Oh, I've got a idea, what if the the end of the talks, after everything has hit the fan, does the Paranet become members of the Accords. Maybe that's one of the things that Harry gets in everybody's faces about and he forces the other supernatural factions to do so. After all, PT is where the masquerade breaks, then having the various factions protect a group low-powered humans would be a gesture of goodwill. Its either that or piss off a species 7 billion strong.
But even if that doesn't happen, I've got a feeling that from a Doylist perspective, the Paranet is gonna become a part of the Accords, since much is being made about how this book is going to shake things up. That and I think Harry would be willing to sponsor them and if Elaine shows up, she might throw in her lot too. If we see her again, I think we'll get to see her surprise the WC with how strong she is.
But as for whether or not they should be Accords members, well they've already gained the attention of, and been victimized by predators, so at least this way they could gain some modicum of protection. 

[g33k]

To become a signatory, you need a certain degree of power.

The Accords have a certain law-of-the-jungle aspect; you need to be able to defend your own borders & members against casual predation by the many Accorded predators.  Only big "avoid war" issues become negotiated under the Accords; killing a rogue who killed a few of yours is ordinary operations.

The Paranet'ers don't have that level of power.

OTOH, without a copy of the Accords, we don't know for sure if "interested parties" who are not members (e.g. the Paranet) could come to the Peace Talks and rep themselves there.  Do you have to be signatory to attend??!?


OTOH, there is a nifty little loophole here.  Elaine shows up to rep the Paranet'ers, pulls out all the stops (including some bits of Summer Magic that I don't doubt she still has) and gets the Paranet signed to the Accords.  And the White Council has to leave her alone, because she's a Signatory of a different Accorded Member.  That does put the Paranet onto the radar of a bunch of predators, though.  It's a short-term tactic that might buy a seat at the table, if needed; but as a long-term strategy it looks like re-running the Wamp plot, turned up to 11... UNLESS the Paranet then becomes the Spookyside / Muggle interface, and a full-scale military action becomes the default response to every Paranet'er killed?  That's pretty deterring...

[Arjan]

Except as a human wizard she is simply claimed by the council.

[123Chikadee]

@g33k: Oooh, that'd be cool. I hope that's what happens.
Well either way, it'd be nice to see Elaine again.

[g33k]

Except as a human wizard she is simply claimed by the council.

If she is separately signed to the Accords on behalf of the Paranet -- which the White Council is obligated to honor -- that explicit obligation supersedes the mere tradition of "human wizard = WC"

Or so the argument of technicalities goes.

And you know how much the faeries adore arguing those fine details...

"There is no 'spirt' of the Accords, only the letter of their law."  Since we have no Accords (Jim hasn't ever presented them to us), we don't actually know what (if anything) the letter of their law says on an issue such as this one.  They are a Doylist artifact; the Accords will say whatever Jim want them to say... including something ambiguous, if that's what Jim wants.
 

[Bad Alias]

[1]PT is where the masquerade breaks. ... [2]Its either that or piss off a species 7 billion strong. ...[3]if Elaine shows up, she might throw in her lot too.

[1] Do we know that it is in PT, or just that it is beginning to happen and will happen?
[2]The Paranet is for mortal practitioners who aren't human, not all humans.
[3]Why would anyone care what Elaine says? Harry's signature only mattered for Marcone because he was a warden commander for the area.

And the White Council has to leave her [Elaine] alone, because she's a Signatory of a different Accorded Member. ... UNLESS the Paranet then becomes the Spookyside / Muggle interface, and a full-scale military action becomes the default response to every Paranet'er killed?  That's pretty deterring...

That's a big problem for the Paranet becoming a member of the Accords. Perhaps the biggest point of the White Council is to police mortal practitioners (by killing the ones who step out of line). The WC and Paranet would likely be at war constantly.

The whole point of the Accords is to maintain the masquerade. If the Paranetters say "we're going to end the masquerade if anyone messes with us," then they are putting a huge target on themselves.

Except as a human wizard she is simply claimed by the council.

Can the Council just claim her? That appears to be what her and Harry think in Summer Knight and Harry and Ramirez imply it in White Night, but I've always been skeptical about that. Jim has said repeatedly that what makes a wizard is power, skill, and dedication. Plenty of people powerful enough to be White Council don't make it.

[Arjan]

[1] Do we know that it is in PT, or just that it is beginning to happen and will happen?
[2]The Paranet is for mortal practitioners who aren't human, not all humans.

Who are human but not strong and versatile enough for the white council.

[3]Why would anyone care what Elaine says? Harry's signature only mattered for Marcone because he was a warden commander for the area.
That's a big problem for the Paranet becoming a member of the Accords. Perhaps the biggest point of the White Council is to police mortal practitioners (by killing the ones who step out of line). The WC and Paranet would likely be at war constantly.

They police them because they claim them. Accord factions police their own.

The whole point of the Accords is to maintain the masquerade. If the Paranetters say "we're going to end the masquerade if anyone messes with us," then they are putting a huge target on themselves.
Can the Council just claim her? That appears to be what her and Harry think in Summer Knight and Harry and Ramirez imply it in White Night, but I've always been skeptical about that. Jim has said repeatedly that what makes a wizard is power, skill, and dedication. Plenty of people powerful enough to be White Council don't make it.

Elaine has all three and Ramirez would have claimed her for the wardens if she had showed her real power and ability.

[dspringer1]

I'd imagine they'd have to establish themselves as a power first. I'm not sure if they've done that at this point, but that's the first step. No one is going to take them seriously until they've demonstrated power.

The Accords are both a recognition that they "have" power already and a method to moderate/limit friction with other supernatural powers.   So having accord status would protect individual members from random attacks -- at the cost of collectively requiring the paranet to occasionally demonstrate that power.   Alliances are another way to demonstrate power, but even then you will be occasionally required to actually lay down the hammer to defend your interests if you wish to keep that alliance. 

We know from the scene where Marcone became an freestanding lord that many powerful individuals do not want Accord status as it can be quite dangerous -- probably because the other powers will test you occasionally to see if you are strong enough to defend your turf. 

I would argue that the benefits are worthwhile PROVIDED the paranet has enough individuals who can deliver that power demonstration. And White Council Wardens do not count as they are  associated with a different Accord member.   Right now, the answer is almost certainly "not enough power"

[123Chikadee]

@BadAlias: Oh, I butchered my argument, my bad. I meant that I believe that Peace Talks is gonna get so crazy that the masquerade is gonna get broken. All those humans could eventually at some point be what makes the Paranet so powerful, as many humans could want their help as opposed to the White Council. Maybe eventually its the Paranet that replaces the White Council. At first I thought PT was the beginning of the masquerade breaking but then Butcher brought out 'Christmas Eve' and those numbers made me rethink that.
Hm, well those all good points about the Accords. Maybe Elaine will display enough power to get the Paranet recognized and Harry would probably be pretty willing to help out with that.

[Arjan]

@BadAlias: Oh, I butchered my argument, my bad. I meant that I believe that Peace Talks is gonna get so crazy that the masquerade is gonna get broken.

Too soon based on the books he still has to write 

All those humans could eventually at some point be what makes the Paranet so powerful, as many humans could want their help as opposed to the White Council. Maybe eventually its the Paranet that replaces the White Council. At first I thought PT was the beginning of the masquerade breaking but then Butcher brought out 'Christmas Eve' and those numbers made me rethink that.
Hm, well those all good points about the Accords. Maybe Elaine will display enough power to get the Paranet recognized and Harry would probably be pretty willing to help out with that.

No way. If the council recognises individual wizards with their retainers as accord members every warlock under pressure is going to try that. Kemmler would have been a member. The council will claim her and she gets a grey cloack and no other members will complain so she better keeps her head low.

[Avernite]

Good points there - somehow, the White Council must have wriggled their way into recognition of their 'claim' to all human wizards, even if we have no specifics. But then, so too a Wamp in need can't just go off and cry to the accords if Papa Raith is being mean.

I think the key item, again, is power. 3 other members must recognise a new Accords member, and the Accords allow for war - so if 3 members sign up a Warlock, that's 3 members who are on the Council's kill-list. For one Warlock, that's a damned bad trade.