New short story

[morriswalters]

Marcone is much like a mantle.  You can kill the man but you can't kill what he represents. So if Harry or Grey killed him there would soon be another like him or worse.  Grey actually calls out something like this in the story.  And this has been pointed out multiple times over the series.

Destroying the red court seemed like eliminating the greater evil, and ended up making everything worse. Ditto egging Lara on to take charge of the white court. Maybe Harry should work on getting smarter before dismantling any more power systems.

This is precisely what Changes and Ghost Story are really about, unintended consequences, versus doing the right thing.  Some fights aren't worth winning.

Also about Rent.  Viti has no moral grounding, the concept of Rent as a moral obligation would not occur to her, this is JB blowing smoke.  She's appears to be talking about the real rent on the office.  Since Grey is at least a contemporary of Margaret I would assume that compound interest has made him wealthy.

[123Chikadee]

Who said anything about killing him? I haven't read it yet, but I'm curious about what Grey says about it. I do like that this series is so complex.
Oh, I agree about Changes and Ghost Story being about untended consequences. Though, I think we'll have to agree to disagree about power systems and their dismantling.
Huh that's interesting. Well, I'm still a little disappointed that we didn't get to learn more about Margaret. 

[Arjan]

Marcone is much like a mantle.  You can kill the man but you can't kill what he represents. So if Harry or Grey killed him there would soon be another like him or worse.  Grey actually calls out something like this in the story.  And this has been pointed out multiple times over the series.This is precisely what Changes and Ghost Story are really about, unintended consequences, versus doing the right thing.  Some fights aren't worth winning.

It is far more complicated than that. The red court had to be stopped. Harry was not the only one who thought that and if Uriel, Vadderung and Mab work together to accomplish this it was not just done for Harry's daughter.

The red court was by that time an out of control destabilizing factor and the most active visible outsider pawn. Yes a lot of fallout and Harry's suicide meant he was not there to help mitigating it but all in all it was a good thing. Another bunch of violent psychotics trying to fill the gap does not diminish that in any way. It brings them to the open and we can handle them in the next books until the outsiders run out of pawns.

The Fomor would have attacked anyway. They had supported the red court before and their attack was nicely coordinated with the red court attack in changes. If the red court was not destroyed the white council would have had to fight the red court and the Fomor both.

Harry tends to blame himself to much and for the wrong things. His let the world burn attitude was wrong and did damage Molly and his suicide let to all the problems highlighted in ghost story but destroying the red court was not a bad decision.

I think people fall for one of Jim's writing tricks. Harry is an unreliable narrator. Later in Skin Game Michael did approve of the destruction of the red court and he understood that the destruction of so much evil did not happen without fallout.

[morriswalters]

Who said anything about killing him? I haven't read it yet, but I'm curious about what Grey says about it. I do like that this series is so complex.
Oh, I agree about Changes and Ghost Story being about untended consequences. Though, I think we'll have to agree to disagree about power systems and their dismantling.
Huh that's interesting. Well, I'm still a little disappointed that we didn't get to learn more about Margaret. 

There are implied threats by both Marcone and Grey.  Grey himself has a conversation about destroying the gang behind the pedophiles.  Stating that he isn't a crusader and that even if he did, something else would take it's place.  Harry draws the same conclusion about Marcone in the series.

When and if you read the story, pay particular attention to the last act.  It displays the general conceit behind a series about a shape shifter.  I assume, perhaps falsely, that this story was an audition.

@Arjan
The Merlin had already telegraphed his intent to root out the Reds, tree and branch.  Assuming that he was really intending to do so and had the capability, then Harry's quest can be reduced to it's essentials, that is, to save his daughter over all else.  I don't want to wander too far afield, but the idea is not was it moral to destroy the Reds, but was the price Harry was willing to pay, too high?  Jim uses Molly as the example, but the lesson applies to all his allies.  Is it right to ask your friends to make a sacrifice for a goal the is essentially selfish?  Even if they seem to be willing to do so?

[Arjan]

@Arjan
The Merlin had already telegraphed his intent to root out the Reds, tree and branch.  Assuming that he was really intending to do so and had the capability, then Harry's quest can be reduced to it's essentials, that is, to save his daughter over all else.  I don't want to wander too far afield, but the idea is not was it moral to destroy the Reds, but was the price Harry was willing to pay, too high?  Jim uses Molly as the example, but the lesson applies to all his allies.  Is it right to ask your friends to make a sacrifice for a goal the is essentially selfish?  Even if they seem to be willing to do so?

That was the merlins intention but whether his actions were actually effective is debatable. I do not think the merlin was part of the grey council or was involved in Vadderungs planning.  Harry did not think the merlin was effectively involved and the grey council was as far as he knew only involved after his chat with Ebenezer when Harry revealed his daughters identity and the place of sacrifice. The merlin was not cooperative so his intentions were not part of the calculation.

Uriel was pretty clear that is was wrong to bring Molly but that does not mean it was wrong to bring his other friends. Their problems started after Changes with Harry's suicide. Using Molly for that was probably even a greater problem than bringing her to Chichen Itza.

[Mira]

Uriel was pretty clear that is was wrong to bring Molly but that does not mean it was wrong to bring his other friends. Their problems started after Changes with Harry's suicide. Using Molly for that was probably even a greater problem than bringing her to Chichen Itza.

I totally agree here,  while bringing her to Chichen Itza was hard on her, it was totally her decision.  Harry tried to talk her out of it, but she insisted..   Harry's suicide was another matter, while it too was her decision, she paid a huge price in the guilt she carried for aiding his death.

[Snark Knight]

There are implied threats by both Marcone and Grey.  Grey himself has a conversation about destroying the gang behind the pedophiles.  Stating that he isn't a crusader and that even if he did, something else would take it's place.

I find it interesting that Marcone represents a possible mortal threat to Grey, but he later dismisses annihilating another major syndicate because it would be tedious and ineffective, rather than existentially dangerous.

And Viti's assessment made it sound like she was concerned about him being an on-the-spot danger to Grey, not just that he could hire Monoc contractors capable of threatening him. Has Marcone got into regularly carrying enchanted weapons or something?

[g33k]

... And Viti's assessment made it sound like she was concerned about him being an on-the-spot danger to Grey, not just that he could hire Monoc contractors capable of threatening him. Has Marcone got into regularly carrying enchanted weapons or something?

Jim has already noted that -- if they only knew what they were doing, and could do it without freakout (which is part of who Marcone is, after all) -- ordinary mortals could be a serious threat to any supernatural force in the world.

Grey is FAR from an exception to that; he can be taken out with mundane weapons.  For someone with Marcone's resources, it wouldn't even be challenging.

If I had Marcone's resources, I'd probably do it in stages of overwhelming firepower.

1 - Put him down with an AA-12 (autofire shotgun) or similar.  Yes, GG can get up from that in moments; so keep him down by pouring more autofire into him as he's down (probably another shooter or two, so not even any letup to reload); this will do more and more damage, keeping him down/disabled.  A shotgun blast won't kill him, but if you got enough AA-12 shooters it probably would:  they can do damage faster than he can regenerate, until they are literally dismembering him, and then destroying the pieces, with so much autofire.

But if that's not enough...

2 - Get another person to add incendiaries.  Napalm, phosphorus grenades, incendiary shotgun loads, etc.  Fire purifies, destroys magic... Ash doesn't regenerate or shapeshift.  Get more people -- in hazmat firesuits -- to keep shooting and burning.

But hey, ridiculous overkill...

3 - While still violently aflame, run over him with a smooth steel road-roller, immediately re-lighting (if not still violently aflame) when the roller clears him.

OK, that was more Loony Tunes than Dresden Files (I bet Harry would approve of anything Loony Tunes in combat, though).  Still, to return to the more James-Bond-Supervillain vibe that Marcone's got going on...

4 - Pour something caustic over the flaming body... VERY caustic.  Fluoroantimonic acid looks good, since we've got the hazmat firesuits already...

Finally, remember that Gard's consulting for Marcone.  She can tell him any vulnerabilities of a Naagloshii-scion.  Maybe salt, or silver... but those are more Old World than American Southwest.  Still, I'm sure there's something.  Add it to the mix above, if inclined.

But honestly, that much concentrated destruction would do for most anything that still relies upon a body.  Mavra, LoON, even Mab; maybe even Vadderung?  I leave off entities like Uriel and Ferrovax, who seem to create whatever body they want whenever they want one.
 

[Bad Alias]

The reason Harry isn't going after Marcone, or Lara for that matter, isn't that he thinks they aren't bad or they're better than the devil he doesn't know. He isn't going after him because he has worse monsters to deal with first, and probably always will, at least in the case of Marcone. Marcone is probably going to die of old age before Harry has the scratched off all the "worse" monsters on his list.

[Dina]

I just wanted to comment that I agree with Arjan´s opinion in this.
About Marcone, I don't necessarily want him to be killed or completely out of power but sometimes is tiring to see him always as powerful and in control. I would like to see him out of his league or metaphorically in the dark about something for a while, preferably with Harry being in a better situation. Let me be clear, Marcone is a great character and I don't want to see him weakened for ever, just in some specific moment. He has the soul of a tiger and that is admirable, but he is still a bad guy and the hero of our story is Harry 

[morriswalters]

@g33k
To kill him you must see him before he sees you!  Watch out for that 6 year old!
@Arjan
They were adults but Harry lied to them.  He lied to his brother, Murphy and others.  Not exactly what I expect from my friends.  The person he was trying to lie to, Mab, caught him in any case.  And even though he a fallen had nudged him that doesn't forgive the lie.

Prior to his fall Harry had been a little out of his mind and his position as stated was that no matter what, no matter who got hurt, no matter what ethical shortcuts he had to take, his daughter was the most important person in the room.  And everybody else could burn.

[Mira]

@g33k
To kill him you must see him before he sees you!  Watch out for that 6 year old!
@Arjan
They were adults but Harry lied to them.  He lied to his brother, Murphy and others.  Not exactly what I expect from my friends.  The person he was trying to lie to, Mab, caught him in any case.  And even though he a fallen had nudged him that doesn't forgive the lie.

Prior to his fall Harry had been a little out of his mind and his position as stated was that no matter what, no matter who got hurt, no matter what ethical shortcuts he had to take, his daughter was the most important person in the room.  And everybody else could burn.

I realize I am going way off topic, but for starters this is way too simplistic.   Yes, Harry said all of those things, and in the moment believed them.  However this isn't some horrible moral backslide on
Harry's part..  It is a normal human reaction that most parents would have when it comes to saving their kid.   Also Harry was made the goat in the war against the Reds, Harry even buys into the idea that he started it..  He didn't,  his reaction to what happened to Susan may have been a spark, but cooler heads could have prevailed.   1] Harry didn't train Victor Sells to be a sorcerer, someone else did that or guided him to where those books to learn this stuff could be found. Someone else or thing did that, who knew very well where they were going with this.  2] Harry didn't direct Victor Sells to rip out the heart of a beloved friend of Bianca by remote control... Nor to be fair did Sells without direction from someone else, know the significance of the young woman who's heart was exploded. 3]  Harry didn't raise Bianca, most likely known as unstable to begin with to RC royalty, someone else did.. 4]  Harry didn't make the unstable Bianca murder her beloved secretary and then swear revenge on Harry because "he made her do it.." 5] If you will remember Harry didn't want to go to the fricking party in the first place suspecting a trap.  6] He didn't steal or forge the invitation or ask Susan to do it.. He warned her explicitly how dangerous vamps were, but she did it anyway and went to that party. 7]  Harry did screw up with the Holy Sword trying to kill Lea with it..  However he didn't take it to the party to trade for that infected Knife, Lea did that on her own. 8] At the party it wasn't Harry who tried to sacrifice an innocent with a Holy Sword to unmake it.. 9] Why did Mavera block Harry, Michael, and Susan's exit after the Sword was recovered?  When all hell broke lose, should Harry have just sat down and died along with his friends, and more importantly a Holy Sword would then fall back into vamp hands..  10] Was it Harry who half turned Susan?  Oh and let's not forget Nightmare who also had a hand in this or Mavra who chose some take out meals to take along as she went her merry way after the smoke cleared.  11] How did they think Harry would react after his beloved was half turned? Yet it was done anyway,  Bianca did get what was coming to her..  While yes, that may have been the spark, the fuel for the fire had long been piled..

On what the Merlin wanted to do and told Harry to do in Changes..  The Merlin was using Harry, he saw it as an opportunity, seeing it as either riding himself of Harry or the Red Court, either way he wins.  Last but not least it wasn't Harry who set up that spell that took out the Red Court, he merely reversed it..  It wasn't him or even Susan who was playing a deeper game here, it was Martin..  Giving her the knowledge about Martin may have set Susan off to make the kill him thus setting up the reversal, but it was Martin who was playing her and the Red Court for his own gain..  However it wasn't her that was about to murder her baby, it was the Red King, she willingly sacrificed herself to stop that.   Oh we need to back up a step or two yet again,  Peabody most likely set up the murder of Simon, who was one of Eb's dear friends, who then took his revenge out by pulling down a satellite killing some important vamps.. Which in turn compelled the Red King to set up his generational spell to take out Eb and his kin... Oh back up another minute, it was Susan who refused to completely cut herself off from little Maggie that led to Red King to her that enabled him  to set up the generational spell, that was the beginning of the end for the Red Cout..  Not simple at all..  For all we know it may turn out that it was the Formor who have been behind this from the get go by enabling Victor Sells.

Back to the new short story,  there are a heck of a lot more kids than the few Goodman saved.  If Marcone really was a champion of exploited kids, he'd set up an army to save all the exploited kids in his territory.. He is not, he may have been trying to send a message, but it wasn't the one he planned on..  And yeah, it is a lot more complicated..

[Bad Alias]

I just wanted to comment that I agree with Arjan´s opinion in this.
About Marcone, I don't necessarily want him to be killed or completely out of power but sometimes is tiring to see him always as powerful and in control. I would like to see him out of his league or metaphorically in the dark about something for a while, preferably with Harry being in a better situation. Let me be clear, Marcone is a great character and I don't want to see him weakened for ever, just in some specific moment. He has the soul of a tiger and that is admirable, but he is still a bad guy and the hero of our story is Harry 

We've seen him on the downside a time or two. Fool Moon, he was made a fool of by the hexenwolves. He was kidnapped and tortured in Small Favor. Harry gets the better of him frequently. Grey got the better of him in this story. In Aftermath, we see that he is afraid of Harry. He explicitly says he wouldn't have treated Harry the way he treats Billy and Murphy.

To add to Mira's point, Shiro says that the war was coming no matter what the White Council, or Harry, did. Harry may have saved the White Council by setting the war off earlier than the Reds were prepared for.

[Mira]

We've seen him on the downside a time or two. Fool Moon, he was made a fool of by the hexenwolves. He was kidnapped and tortured in Small Favor. Harry gets the better of him frequently. Grey got the better of him in this story. In Aftermath, we see that he is afraid of Harry. He explicitly says he wouldn't have treated Harry the way he treats Billy and Murphy.

To add to Mira's point, Shiro says that the war was coming no matter what the White Council, or Harry, did. Harry may have saved the White Council by setting the war off earlier than the Reds were prepared for.

  Yup, that and the general belief that the Red Court was the cat's paw of a more powerful group.  They were used and set up, object of which being to take out a star born and the White Council with him. 

[g33k]

Mostly I agree, but this point is rather weak:

... 4]  Harry didn't make the unstable Bianca murder her beloved secretary and then swear revenge on Harry because "he made her do it.."

He kind of did "make her," at least by the way Vamps judge things.

• He provoked her rage
• He injured her with his "pocket full of sunshine" spell, so she needed blood to heal
• He left her alone with her love-object / food.

I realize the Vamp POV here is warped and evil; but by their twisted logic, "it's the wizard's fault" is a valid perspective.
 
It's one of the things that make the serious power-players so potent, is that they can recognize the internal rules that let them manipulate other powers.  Harry does it, somewhat.  I presume the Black Council was doing it much moreso, there.