Big Finale Ending Trilogy

[DanceGeek5678]

So, how's it gonna end? Dresden dies doing the right thing, obviously. But too, his destiny to defeat the Outsiders plays big, I'm sure. And I have to believe that the failsafe on Demonreach goes off on Dresden's birthday, in combination with Kemler's Dark Hallow, and he gets a big ascension.
Thoughts?

[g33k]

Honestly, I think we have a lot of story happening before the BAT, and little to none of that info is available yet, but will be critical to the events of the BAT.

I expect Mirror,Mirror will be particularly ripe with WAGfodder!

[Yuillegan]

I should hope that the next few Files give us plenty of juicy WAG material! How else would these boards survive (and I might go mad)?

Dance Geek - welcome to the boards! If I had to guess I would say that Dresden will NOT get ascended as Jim has constantly stated he only ever wants Harry to be the small fish in the medium pond, or medium at most in the big pond. He only gives him power ups so he can beat him up harder and it be somewhat plausible.

But I would be prepared to bet that Demonreach will eventually have some or all of its inmates released, and I suspect Dresden will be the one to release them. He either will have no other option, or more likely will think that it is the best option. One way or another it would hurt him far more. Also I am pretty sure Jim won't be blowing most of North America to hell until the absolute end, if he does it at all (which is what the Banefire would do).

I have a few other theories though
1) Eb will die saving Harry and Harry will take up the Black Staff. This will likely be Dresden's last power up.
2) Maggie will grow up to be a freaking bad ass, maybe even scarier than Dresden.
3) Epic Mouse vs big Monster battle at full power (when we finally find out a bit more about Mouse) - I think it might even be an "evil" temple dog.
4) Cowl and Kumori will reveal themselves just before the BAT and it will either hurt or freak out Dresden. Either Justin or Simon as Cowl, Elaine or Larisa as Kumori. Both are plausible.
5) Kemmler is coming back, may be involved with everything.
6) Harry will meet the OG Merlin, who he may or may not be himself.
7) Harry will be trained by Vadderung at some point, and it will hurt. Probably for some really epic magic stuff.
9) Mirror Mirror Harry won't be "evil", just colder and more pragmatic. He probably won't be killed by Dresden, but shunted away to his universe. He might come back later in the BAT during a sort of multi-universe team up or as a unexpected threat.
10) Drakul is behind lots of things too and started the Vampire Courts
11) TWG isn't an Outsider but beyond them. I don't like this idea but it is probable.
12) Ferrovax in infected by Nemesis and is going to rage in book 20 or so.
13) Mab will break her word, and begin the Revelations apocalypse (stars falling from the sky - wormwood).
14) The Devil will have a point, and that will upset everything. But he also probably opposes Free Will. Dresden will face down his temptation.
15) Murphy dies next book.
16) Nicodemus will try to "save" the multiverse by ending everything.
17) There is a horrible reveal about the nature of reality coming that will shake us up, and Dresden won't know if he can continue fighting for it.
18) It will get darker before it gets brighter - by the final book in the BAT things will be pretty dire.
19) Margaret Le Fey will be a lot more shady and Dresden will feel like he has been living a lie.
20) Malcolm Dresden works for Uriel - and he is doing a good job. He and Harry will work together at the end.

And finally, I think even after everything the camera will get pulled back further and the books will have a grander message for us readers.

Great thread DG!

[Bad Alias]

@Yuillegan: I either agree with everything you said or think it is as likely as not, except 9. !Harry is sacrificing Harrys because he is being chased by his enemies.

I don't think 2 will be true in the main series unless we get the YA series at the same time.

[Snark Knight]

3) Epic Mouse vs big Monster battle at full power (when we finally find out a bit more about Mouse) - I think it might even be an "evil" temple dog.

... have you read Zoo Day?

[Yuillegan]

... have you read Zoo Day?

I hadn't, but now I have. Well I think that tale brings some truly interesting insights. And I believe it confirms my 3rd guess. I would say that we will see the return of Mouse's evil older brother - and meet his sister.

My guess from the story is that the cloaked figures who stole the Foo Dogs in the first place were Cowl and Kumori - and they each have a guardian now.

The first interesting thing in that story is the concept of "Law". We know that a lot of the supernatural types seem to play by a ill-defined set of rules, known only to them, which seems to be more prevalent amongst the more spiritual types. The haunts believed that under the Law, they had the right to test Maggie and seek her as prey. Considering much of this story is about purpose, I would say that this is theirs. All about facing your fears. Mouse even alludes to it, saying that what children learn from the "invisible" monsters of childhood stay with them for life. I suspect this Law is set out by the ranking Deity in this universe, or perhaps multiverse. I am undecided on whether it works the same as in DnD...that would mean there is a concept of Chaos, which I don't know that the "evil" beings we have seen totally fit. In DnD Baator is Lawful evil, the Abyss is Chaotic evil, and the Far Realms fall outside usual definitions (although technically there are some good theories they are actually responsible for all the evil in DnD). To me it seems like the Abyss and Baator are combined as Hell in Dresden Files, and the Far Realms is the Outside respectively.

I also think there is heavy elements of the Positive and Negative realms, considering the contrast of Mouse and his brother. I wouldn't go so far to say that they are Heaven and Hell - more like spectrums that run through everything.

Also Mouse prays to the Almighty, Mab and Odin. He refers to them as Powers. He doesn't act like he knows them, even though he has met Mab at least and considering his interaction with Uriel it seemed like he was more aware of things on a cosmic level. But perhaps not too. He was able to sense that the real threat was not the warlock or the haunts. Foo Dogs too seem to have the ability to do some minor reality-warping, influencing chance and luck amongst other things.

Still I stand by my prediction - we will see that battle, perhaps with both siblings and even more Foo Dogs, and we will learn more about them.

Also SK - do you have any predictions?

Bad Alias - Possibly not, however considering Jim will take another 20 years to finish the series she will be in at least her 30s by the end...Zoo Day actually sets up one last interesting thing that relates to her - the "evil" Foo Dog (Mouse's brother) didn't seem very interested in Dresden himself, but much more so in Maggie's future. Implying that she herself will have a very interesting life.

[Bad Alias]

The reason I don't think little Maggie will play a big role in the DF if the YA series isn't finished (or started) is because it would be a pretty big spoiler for that series to see who she becomes before it is finished (and definitely before it is started).

Now, there are several situations in which a story has been written when we know the end. I think the Hobbit is an example. Since it was a story written for children, it was written so that the reader would know that Bilbo survives the story when they start. We also have prequels all over the place these days.

[Kindler]

I think that the last Case File before the BAT will end with Harry pretty much retiring. Personally, my bet is that Murphy dies in the last book, and it's the final straw for Dresden. He's going to hang up his nonexistent hat when she bites it, and will retreat to live out his days on Demonreach.
Then the Apocalypses (I'm assuming that the BAT will involve lots of Apocalypse stories, from the Abrahamic Religions, Ragnarok (naturally), the Shakers' Apocalypse (overdue by a couple of centuries; I think there are actually a few Shakers left, believe it or not, since celibacy is a requirement. Pretty sure there are a few dozen living in the last Shaker community up in Maine), etc.) kick off, and Harry returns from his period of mourning and hermitude to kick back.
I'm anticipating a barely-in-control Harry during the BAT, similar to his breakneck pace and recklessness in Changes. Though I anticipate a different ending.
Personally, I don't think the BAT will end with Harry's death, per se. I think it'll end with Harry Becoming Something Else. A guardian deity-type figure, with a bit of Trickster thrown in. Though that's tied into what I think he'll do with the Winter Knight's Mantle after Winter loses the Gates and the Fae Courts are pretty much gone.
Part of my BAT WAG is that it'll be written from multiple first-person perspectives, shifting around between Molly, Dresden, maybe Maggie, and other Important Players. Since the Case Files are, per Jim, "written" by Harry (the way he puts it, they're Harry "looking back" over his life), I think the BAT is going to be different. We know Harry lives up to the BAT because he has to write this stuff down, right? Or, at least, share it with someone else. I think that'll happen between the end of the Case Files and the BAT.
Changing the format of the BAT is one way to make it clear that Harry might not make it out of things alive. It can also be a good way to accurately communicate and explore the scope of a truly apocalyptic conflict, grander in scale than even First Lord's Fury.
I don't want Dresden to ever end, but I do want to know what happens.

[123Chikadee]

@Kindler: Harry becoming something else is pretty cool, I like that idea. Yeah, changing up the narrative would work pretty well. Though, I don't like the idea of fridgeing Murphy to get him to go into hermit-mode. Maybe just a culmination of rough things happening?
What's the Shakers' Apocalypse?

[Kindler]

I don't view it as Fridging Murphy in this case. I believe her death will be earned and appropriate, not just as a method to push Dresden's character development in a certain direction. Everyone who has discussed their relationship has pointed out the (potentially) inevitable end to it: she dies, either in action or simply due to time's march, and Harry hangs around for another few centuries (naturally, it's possible for Harry to die doing something brave and/or stupid before she does, but if that's not the case, then he will outlive her by several lifetimes just due to his natural lifespan). It's one of the reasons fans frequently talk about Murphy getting a powerup (a concept to which I am opposed).

So not only is it frequently discussed, it's a logical end to her arc. Personally, I think she'll go down fighting, and it'll be as awesome an end as Jim can imagine, because anything else would really suck (and would also naturally lead to accusations about stuffing Murph into a fridge).

The Shakers were millennialists. They believed that Christ had already returned, and that we were currently living in the promised Kingdom Come.

It's one of those beliefs that are kinda supported by Revelations (there's one point where Satan is said to be held captive for a thousand years, and that Christ will rule over the earth during that period). Basically, they thought the Second Coming had already happened, and that humanity had to strive for perfection in all things to properly demonstrate their devotion.

Shakers are one of those protestant sects that are a little weird from the outside, but pretty awesome from the inside (kinda like the Amish). They believed strongly in communalism, and were, at times, viewed as the best example of Utopian societies in America. They also invented a bunch of super useful things, like clothespins. For them, labor was their devotion, so everything had to be perfect. It made them exquisite craftsmen for a number of reasons (again, kinda like the Amish). Also notable for outlawing slavery and equalizing rights for women as early as 1817 (within their communities, at least).

Honestly, if you get rid of the mandatory celibacy, Shakers would have probably grown to be one of the dominant Protestant sects, at least in the US. But it's kinda hard to rely solely on conversion rather than generational increases.

[Bad Alias]

What's fridging? Or more pointedly, your definition of fridging? I ask because we could say that every character that Harry cares about who has died/been gruesomely injured has been fridged.

TV tropes defines it as "A character is killed off in a particularly gruesome manner and left to be found just to offend or insult someone, or to cause someone serious anguish." The intent can be that of the author, so it basically applies to everyone Harry cares about (including when he kills a bad guy and it causes him serious anguish). The definition supplied by wikipedia is "female characters are injured, raped, killed, or depowered (an event colloquially known as fridging), sometimes to stimulate "protective" traits, and often as a plot device intended to move a male character's story arc forward." That's a terrible definition if we want fridging to be a useful term because everything after "an event colloquially known as fridging" isn't a necessary part of the definition, so fridging would basically be anytime a physically bad thing happens to a female character.

If you limit the definition to a character killing the female romantic lead with the intent of causing Dresden pain, then I doubt that's how Murphy would go down.

If you narrow the definition to "anytime a female character who a male main character cares about dies" then I'm going to walk away from the conversation because I think, for this kind of story, we can't just remove female characters from harms way without destroying the value of having such characters, and that's just ridiculous.

Honestly, I think this trope is subverted more often in the DF than it is played straight. The typical situation is that a villain says "I'm going to fridge your x (and usually y and z as well)," and Harry responds by killing villain or villain and everyone villain knows.

[Kindler]

I think his thought process was that, if Murphy's death serves no purpose other than to drive Harry to become a hermit (in reference to my pre-BAT WAG), then it'd be like Fridging her. That fits a reasonable definition of Fridging, but wasn't really what I meant.

[Just Al]

I think there are actually a few Shakers left, believe it or not, since celibacy is a requirement. Pretty sure there are a few dozen living in the last Shaker community up in Maine), etc.) kick off, and Harry returns from his period of mourning and hermitude to kick back.

I remember reading that the last Shaker died sometime in the 90's being well over 100.

[Bad Alias]

I think his thought process was that, if Murphy's death serves no purpose other than to drive Harry to become a hermit (in reference to my pre-BAT WAG), then it'd be like Fridging her. That fits a reasonable definition of Fridging, but wasn't really what I meant.

I feel like most definitions of fridging don't have a lot of relevance for single point of view story. Doesn't everything in the story at least primarily serve the purpose of driving Dresden, if not solely?

@Just Al: I remember hearing that too, now that you mention it, but when I was looking for details on the Shaker apocalypse, the Wikipedia page made it look like they still have members.

[Kindler]

I think there are a handful of true Shakers left, but they're not accepting new members. They have a Covenant you're supposed to sign, and they won't allow converts anymore.
There were several additions in the fifties and sixties though, from what I hear. And their Sunday services are open to the public.