Souls and Ghosts.

[Mira]

3. "What comes next" may not be heaven or hell, might be applicable to ghosts - Again, not that strong an argument.  We are a soul, we have a body.  Ghosts can't possess people according to Stuart, that is the pervue of demons.  So for Harry to go into his body, maybe for any ghost to go into any body (i.e. capriocorpus) they need to have their soul along with them.

Corpsetaker?  I had a thought about that,  maybe it is just merely wanting to cling to life/earth as long as possible?  Kemmler wanted to bring people back from the dead and comeback from death himself.. The Corpsetaker didn't have that skill but by other means managed to hop from body to body.    One reason I've heard for ghosts to exist is unfinished business which can take several forms so their spirit clings to earth long after their bodies are dead.

[morriswalters]

Sir Stuart says he's a ghost, Jim says Ghosts aren't souls, thus Sir Stuart doesn't have a soul.  That would seem to be pretty straight forward.

In between almost reads like purgatory, which is very Catholic. A place for souls who don't quite have what it takes to get to Heaven. But purgatory isn't for ghosts, it's for souls who haven't reached grace. This fits, in the sense that Jim uses it that way.  Captain Murphy and Carmichael  appear to have unresolved issues, but what would be Uriel's purpose in using a memory?  It doesn't have a soul and it can't get to heaven.

[Mira]

Sir Stuart says he's a ghost, Jim says Ghosts aren't souls, thus Sir Stuart doesn't have a soul.  That would seem to be pretty straight forward.

In between almost reads like purgatory, which is very Catholic. A place for souls who don't quite have what it takes to get to Heaven. But purgatory isn't for ghosts, it's for souls who haven't reached grace. This fits, in the sense that Jim uses it that way.  Captain Murphy and Carmichael  appear to have unresolved issues, but what would be Uriel's purpose in using a memory?  It doesn't have a soul and it can't get to heaven.

   I seem to remember asking Uriel about staying a ghost...  Uriel replied that he didn't think that
was a good option for Harry, but he didn't exactly say or say that it would cost him his soul.  Harry
asks, "what if he digs the ghost routine?"  Here is the answer

page454 Ghost Story

"You don't," Uriel replied.  "But even if you did, I would point out to you that your spiritual essence has been all but disintegrated.  You would not last long as a shade, nor would you have the strength to aid and protect your loved ones.  Should you lose your sanity, you might even become a danger to them--but if that is your desire, I can facilitate it."

First of all,  Uriel says nothing about Harry losing his soul if he became a ghost..  Second of all he seems to imply that spiritual essence is an important for being a ghost.. He says Harry wouldn't last long as a shade, which implies that, spirit, ghost, and shade, pretty much interchangeable... Last, but not the least, that if that is what Harry really wanted, Uriel could make it happen..  So does he mean that he'd just take Harry's soul leaving what? A few pages later the lesson that Uriel really wanted Harry to learn is learnt, he isn't a body with a soul, he is a soul with a body..

[toodeep]

Sir Stuart says he's a ghost, Jim says Ghosts aren't souls, thus Sir Stuart doesn't have a soul.  That would seem to be pretty straight forward.

Yes, but Sir Stuart also said that Harry was just a ghost and we know that to be inaccurate.  It is clear that Sir Stuart (and we assume Morty) is not someone educated in the vagaries of soul minutiae.  This is a bit surprising since Mort seems to have interaction with Jack and thus maybe some degree of access to "in-between."  You would think that Morty might know something about the different "realms" in the afterlife that he can interact with, unless he only interacts with Jack when he comes to our universe and doesn't realize there are others.

[morriswalters]

Nothing said or done by anyone in the book indicates that Sir Stuart is anything more than a ghost.  And Harry is a special case, his body isn't dead. This is almost a literal definition as supplied by Jim.  You have a body, you are a soul.

[Bad Alias]

To try to address your points somewhat in order:
1.  Harry went to Chicago as well as "in-between" thus indicating that "in-between" is nothing special. - My points are lines of evidence, one chair leg alone can be called a stick, but together they are chair legs.  It goes with the other points in that we know Harry has a soul and he went there.  Alone it is meaningless, but when combined with the other points that everything we saw there had a soul (or just flat out was a soul, which might be the difference between "in between" and the spirit world Chicago).  Honestly I think the stronger point of them was that while he drove around with Carmichael he saw no wraiths or other remnants of ghosts, while he often saw those things in spirit-Chicago.  The only things active there were/had souls.

2.  Angels everywhere - I don't consider Uriel much of an indicator since he now comes when Harry calls.  Your point about the angel of death was a good one, but I will note was explicitly there to guard Forthill's soul.  Honestly it strengthens the arguments about angels only being involved where there are souls - and that guard angel "in betwee" appeared to be permanently stationed there.

To strain your metaphor: I can tell the difference between a stick and a chair leg even if there is only one and no other signs of a chair. I only see one chair leg. You gotta have at least three.

So all your points are really only one point, i.e., we only see souls in Chicago Between. (You also state that we don't see any soulless entities in the limited time we spend there).

Fr. Forthill is a work-a-day hero. People like him die all the time. Angel's are likely all over the place all the time. And it might strengthen an argument that I'm not arguing with. I'm not saying angels have nothing to do with souls. I'm saying angels being around doesn't mean everything around has a soul.

3. "What comes next" may not be heaven or hell, might be applicable to ghosts - Again, not that strong an argument.

The only time we've seen someone move on to what comes next it wasn't any afterlife or divine judgment and it was applicable to ghosts. It's much stronger evidence that what comes next is Earth than the evidence you've offered for pure ghosts not being able to go to Chicago Between. Not that I'm saying that what comes next is always Earth.

We are a soul, we have a body.  Ghosts can't possess people according to Stuart, that is the pervue of demons.  So for Harry to go into his body, maybe for any ghost to go into any body (i.e. capriocorpus) they need to have their soul along with them.

I agree that Harry has a soul? I'm not sure what your point is here.

I like your tangent about the nature of Chicago Between. I was thinking about the substance of your next point before you made it. (Your logic was easy to follow, i.e., good). I think everybody gets a new soul in a new reality based on the overarching philosophy of freedom, choice, and consequences in the DF. Kinda like your point about will Harry have to answer for the sins of Mirror Harry? Then choice doesn't really have consequences.

Archangels definitely span the universes. It's wild to think about Denarians spanning universes. Think about how much more powerful that makes them considering experience gets you knowledge/power.

In between almost reads like purgatory, which is very Catholic. A place for souls who don't quite have what it takes to get to Heaven. But purgatory isn't for ghosts, it's for souls who haven't reached grace. This fits, in the sense that Jim uses it that way.  Captain Murphy and Carmichael  appear to have unresolved issues, but what would be Uriel's purpose in using a memory?  It doesn't have a soul and it can't get to heaven.

Uriel does say that Chicago Between is "one of them" in response to Harry saying "That office, in Chicago Between. It was yours." It could be that Chicago Between is Purgatory and just for souls and Uriel has other offices that Sir Stuart could be being placed in, though he will be contacted by Carmichael, though Captain Murphy can transport people to places besides Chicago Between.

Yes, but Sir Stuart also said that Harry was just a ghost and we know that to be inaccurate.  It is clear that Sir Stuart (and we assume Morty) is not someone educated in the vagaries of soul minutiae.

Sir Stuart definitely thinks Harry isn't a normal ghost. He does say maybe it's just because he's a wizard ghost. Sir Stuart and Morty are dealing with things they haven't seen before because of Corpsetaker when Harry arrives. Sir Stuart tells Harry that they knew something strange was going on with Harry. They worried it was something Corpsetaker did.

Also, to me, it seems that Morty is doing some pretty hard denial about Harry's situation throughout the book.

Nothing said or done by anyone in the book indicates that Sir Stuart is anything more than a ghost.

I wouldn't go that far, but I would say there's nothing that makes it more likely than not, or maybe not even "probable cause" level evidence.

[Mira]

Nothing said or done by anyone in the book indicates that Sir Stuart is anything more than a ghost.  And Harry is a special case, his body isn't dead. This is almost a literal definition as supplied by Jim.  You have a body, you are a soul.

But Uriel specifically says if Harry really wants to be a ghost he could make that happen.  He also says Harry is a soul with a body not the other way around..   So if Uriel made it happen, how does that work?   More to the point since souls are really important to him, why would Uriel do it?

[Arjan]

Nothing said or done by anyone in the book indicates that Sir Stuart is anything more than a ghost.  And Harry is a special case, his body isn't dead. This is almost a literal definition as supplied by Jim.  You have a body, you are a soul.

Corpstakers body was dead. Kemmler returned a few times and it is unlikely he used the same body every time. Luccio got a new one. Having your own body is important because getting someone elses body is difficult and morally wrong but that is all. Harry would have been the same Harry if his body was gone, it would just have been more difficult to return.

Jim is a great writer so he does not always spells it out. He gives clues and you are supposed to wonder and guess about Sir Stuart's status. He builds it up.  He shows how difficult it is to see the difference and so suggests that there might be more shades confused with ghosts wandering around. I think Uriel's interest is a dead giveaway but if you want you can not just read the book as gospel, you can explain it like gospel. Some explanations are just more forced than others.

[Mira]

Corpstakers body was dead. Kemmler returned a few times and it is unlikely he used the same body every time. Luccio got a new one. Having your own body is important because getting someone elses body is difficult and morally wrong but that is all. Harry would have been the same Harry if his body was gone, it would just have been more difficult to return.

  But that is all?   Morally wrong, certainly, but getting someone else's body presented lots of problems for Luccio.   For example she no longer was able to make Warden Swords.  She didn't forget how to make the swords, but she no longer had to the skill either to read the new warden to
match the sword or apparently to make them.   Was this simply the lack of nerve pathways for the skill built up over a century or more of being a wizard or something else?  In my opinion in her new body she was also more vulnerable to the manipulation of Peabody.

[morriswalters]

The deeper you look at this the less there is to see.  For my personal canon I ignore Mr Butcher and see ghost as lost souls.  The body is a vessel to contain souls.  So everybody hanging out in Ghost Story is a soul.  It's simpler that way. Sometimes Jim should just shut up and let mystery trump explanation. 

If there is a difference in Sir Stuart it's that he has purpose and can execute it. Again for personal canon I see Mortimer as one of a family line of ectomancers which Stuart has been bound to in some fashion to remain and protect.

The bodies that Luccio inhabited are like Corvettes and your daddy's Ford, they are both cars but daddy's Ford ain't gonna get you there at 200 mph.  In terms of Harry having the choice to move on or not that merely a matter of choice, choosing to live or die. YMMV

[Arjan]

  But that is all?   Morally wrong, certainly, but getting someone else's body presented lots of problems for Luccio.   For example she no longer was able to make Warden Swords.  She didn't forget how to make the swords, but she no longer had to the skill either to read the new warden to
match the sword or apparently to make them.   Was this simply the lack of nerve pathways for the skill built up over a century or more of being a wizard or something else?  In my opinion in her new body she was also more vulnerable to the manipulation of Peabody.

If the body you return to has a broken leg you can not walk. Lucio returned in a young body which made her more vulnerable in some ways and the body is not trained in other ways. She will have years to train it up and to discover what she can do with it.

[Mira]

If the body you return to has a broken leg you can not walk. Lucio returned in a young body which made her more vulnerable in some ways and the body is not trained in other ways. She will have years to train it up and to discover what she can do with it.

 But that is the point, she wasn't the same in the new body, questionable if she is even fit to be the captain of the wardens now.

[Arjan]

But that is the point, she wasn't the same in the new body, questionable if she is even fit to be the captain of the wardens now.

Depends how you look at it. She still has a wealth of experience and fighting is not the most important skill of a captain. It is about leadership and in that respect she did quite well.

[Mira]

Depends how you look at it. She still has a wealth of experience and fighting is not the most important skill of a captain. It is about leadership and in that respect she did quite well.

Did she?  Just how good has her leadership been since her body change?  It is hard to tell because for one thing she was heavily under the influence of Peabody ink.. Hard to say if the body change made it worse or not in fairness.  However she got involved with a subordinate [Harry] who was under her command, not good leadership, she committed murder and her one time lover and right hand man, Morgan took the blame and ultimately died..

[Arjan]

Did she?  Just how good has her leadership been since her body change?  It is hard to tell because for one thing she was heavily under the influence of Peabody ink.. Hard to say if the body change made it worse or not in fairness.  However she got involved with a subordinate [Harry] who was under her command, not good leadership, she committed murder and her one time lover and right hand man, Morgan took the blame and ultimately died..

Peabody fooled and manipulated the whole senior council. She is not more incompetent than them. Luccio is smart and inspires loyalty, that is difficult to replace.