Souls and Ghosts.

[Arjan]

I found the quote. It's not as definitive as I thought it was, but here it is:So Uriel definitely refers to Sir Stuart in the third person when hiring Sir Stuart's ghost.

[nadia.skylark]

I found the quote. It's not as definitive as I thought it was, but here it is:So Uriel definitely refers to Sir Stuart in the third person when hiring Sir Stuart's ghost.

Do you have some actual evidence that hasn't been refuted? Because as I understand it, your only evidence is that Uriel hired him, and I've already provided reasons for why he'd do that even if Sir Stuart's ghost is a ghost rather than a ghost + soul.

[Arjan]

Do you have some actual evidence that hasn't been refuted? Because as I understand it, your only evidence is that Uriel hired him, and I've already provided reasons for why he'd do that even if Sir Stuart's ghost is a ghost rather than a ghost + soul.

He is more substantial than most ghosts. He stayed behind with a special mission to protect his family. We know from Monty that is one one of the reasons Shades stay behind for a while, they have something to do. Lea has noted him as special. The way how Uriel interacts with him as an individual worth saving not as some magical appearance.

The whole tone of the book makes me think that Morty actually underestimates the number of spirits that have actually souls. But in the end it is not about one or two sentences. It is about reading ghost story as a whole and the impression you get from Sir Stuart. He is simply too substantial.

It is how the story is build up. We are shown the complexity of sir Stuart without explicitly stating it and Uriel's interest is the confirmation of our suspicions. Ghost story is a show not tell book.

[nadia.skylark]

He is more substantial than most ghosts.

So he's a strong ghost.

He stayed behind with a special mission to protect his family. We know from Monty that is one one of the reasons Shades stay behind for a while, they have something to do.

We also know that ghosts can be formed because the person who died was focussing on a specific mission, and that the resultant ghost is therefore tied to that mission--it's what Harry did in Grave Peril.

Lea has noted him as special.

And Jim has noted that ghosts that evolve and gain new power sources are special.

The way how Uriel interacts with him as an individual worth saving not as some magical appearance.

Well, if Uriel didn't interact with him as an individual, Sir Stuart's ghost would hardly agree to work with him, would he?

Also, we've never seen Uriel interact with any being without a soul to my knowledge (except Sir Stuart's ghost, which, due to the current debate, is not evidence on this point) so we have no basis for comparison. For all we know, he treats everyone like that.

The whole tone of the book makes me think that Morty actually underestimates the number of spirits that have actually souls. But in the end it is not about one or two sentences.

Tone's pretty subjective. I certainly never got that impression.

It is about reading ghost story as a whole and the impression you get from Sir Stuart. He is simply too substantial.

The impression I got was that Sir Stuart was a particularly strong and substantial ghost who worked with an ectomancer, and possibly a line of ectomancers.

It is how the story is build up. We are shown the complexity of sir Stuart without explicitly stating it and Uriel's interest is the confirmation of our suspicions.

Of your suspicions, please. I never had such suspicions, and I certainly don't view them as confirmed.

Ghost story is a show not tell book.

And as I understand it, it showed Sir Stuart as a ghost that, while strong and substantial, was nevertheless a normal ghost.

If he'd done things like go through a church threshold, or disagreed with Mortimer when Mortimer told Harry that he wasn't the real Harry, saying something to the effect of "no, sometimes these ghosts we get from Karrin's dad actually have souls attached" it would be one thing, but he doesn't do any of these things.

[toodeep]

My head canon is that neither Harry or Corpsetaker were ghosts.  I only say this because both were capable of moving back into a body if one was available.  We see this when Butters spirit is left outside his body after being forced out by Corpsetaker.  On the other hand Sir Stuart doesn't appear to have this option.  My internal canon says that Corpsetaker and Kimmler figured out how to encapsulate whatever it is that makes them human and detach it from the body, much as Uriel does to Harry.  This in my canon is how they body jump.  And if we assume that whoever gets dispossessed is still human, like Luccio, then they encapsulate the soul as well.  So Corpsetaker could take a ride on a train.

Ya, that is pretty much how I view it as well.  I really think that getting "almost dead" got Harry's spirit/soul a little less firmly stuck to his body, and gave him a better appreciation of other levels of reality.  Now I expect that he will Astrally project on purpose at some point (essentially what he accidently did in ghost story).  I suspect that the time travel we will eventually see will be done by an astrally projecting Harry, because it overcomes the entire "moving mass through time" issue and instead enters into the "is time real for spirits" kind of thing, and we've heard a lot about how linear time isn't accurate from Angels and stuff...

[Bad Alias]

The way how Uriel interacts with him as an individual worth saving not as some magical appearance.

Also, we've never seen Uriel interact with any being without a soul to my knowledge (except Sir Stuart's ghost, which, due to the current debate, is not evidence on this point) so we have no basis for comparison. For all we know, he treats everyone like that.

According to all Christian theology I'm familiar with and the "mainstream view in Judaism"¹ dogs don't have souls, and we see how Uriel interacts with Mouse. (Now Mouse is different, and I think Jim might give dogs, especially temple dogs, souls in the DF).

As to the "worth saving" part, are "not two sparrows sold for a penny? Yet not one of them will fall to the ground outside your Father’s care. And even the very hairs of your head are all numbered."² There's other similar Bible quotes saying God cares about "lesser" creatures than humans. These creatures would probably also be "lesser" than ghosts, so I would imagine Uriel would care for ghosts.

<sup>1: https://www.thejc.com/judaism/rabbi-i-have-a-problem/does-our-dog-have-a-soul-1.441160

2: Matthew 10:29-31 New International Version (NIV)</sup>

[Arjan]

Sir Stuart’s shade looked at Mortimer and smiled, undeniable pride in his features. Then he glanced at Uriel and said, “I still get to fight, aye?”

The word Shade is used for soul + spirit combination. I think you need very good reasons not to see Sir Stuart as a soul spirit combination and not the other way round.

[nadia.skylark]

The word Shade is used for soul + spirit combination.

Since when? I know that Corpsetaker is referred to as "Lady Shade" but I'm 85% certain that it's been used for ghosts that don't have souls (and aren't Sir Stuart's ghost), and 110% certain it's never been defined in any Dresden Files book as meaning "a ghost that has a soul."

I think you need very good reasons not to see Sir Stuart as a soul spirit combination and not the other way round.

Here's a reason:

In the Dresden Files ghosts are not trapped anywhere; they’re something new that had been created. They’ve been created out of memories into the form of something else, so as far as they’re concerned they’re the same person who’s now a ghost, but that’s not the truth of the existence. And when they end, they just sort of end in entropy, they just sort of trail away slowly if they use too much energy. Or if they don’t use much energy, then they just sort of hang around, and they … you know, it’s not much of a life, really. But it’s possible for them to grow and change, to find other sources of energy and become something else, but that’s kind of like, the exceptional ghost that does that, a particularly driven one. Most ghosts just sort of like, wander around and hang out with other ghosts, and they complain about the kids, you know “young’ns these days,” …

That's the definition of a ghost, given to us by Jim himself. Thus, any ghost not specifically noted as an exception should be assumed to meet that definition.

If you like, I can dig up the link to the youtube video where Jim is talking about it. He also says explicitly that ghosts aren't souls, and that the soul moves on after death rather than getting stuck, but I don't have that bit transcribed.

...

Look, is there any evidence you've provided to back up your claim that Sir Stuart's ghost is also Sir Stuart's soul that I have not refuted? Because I feel like I've gotten everything you've posted, but then you post things like this

I think you need very good reasons not to see Sir Stuart as a soul spirit combination and not the other way round.

and I feel like one of us is missing something.

[Arjan]

Since when? I know that Corpsetaker is referred to as "Lady Shade" but I'm 85% certain that it's been used for ghosts that don't have souls (and aren't Sir Stuart's ghost), and 110% certain it's never been defined in any Dresden Files book as meaning "a ghost that has a soul."

Here's a reason:
That's the definition of a ghost, given to us by Jim himself. Thus, any ghost not specifically noted as an exception should be assumed to meet that definition.

If you like, I can dig up the link to the youtube video where Jim is talking about it. He also says explicitly that ghosts aren't souls, and that the soul moves on after death rather than getting stuck, but I don't have that bit transcribed.

...

Look, is there any evidence you've provided to back up your claim that Sir Stuart's ghost is also Sir Stuart's soul that I have not refuted? Because I feel like I've gotten everything you've posted, but then you post things like this  and I feel like one of us is missing something.

You did not refute it.

I know that quote from Jim but that is about ghosts, not about shades. It is about most cases and clearly the book is not just about most cases and in the book Morty states that there are exceptions but usually not. There are exeptions and this book is about the exceptions. I have stated why I think Sir Stuart is such an exception. The other two are Harry and corpstaker.

A Shade is different from a ghost. I have checked all the usages of the word in Ghost Story and they all refer to spirit + soul combinations and one suspect, Sir Stuart so that is a strong indication. Add that to Uriel's interest which is an even stronger indication.

[Mira]

According to all Christian theology I'm familiar with and the "mainstream view in Judaism"1 dogs don't have souls, and we see how Uriel interacts with Mouse. (Now Mouse is different, and I think Jim might give dogs, especially temple dogs, souls in the DF).

  All dogs go to Heaven....

[Arjan]

  All dogs go to Heaven....

Only if the cats allow it. They rule the place. 

[Mira]

Only if the cats allow it. They rule the place. 

  Hmmm.... Is that why I have a ceramic angel cat among my Christmas decorations?   Yeah, I
think there is a cat that helps St Peter at the Gates..  All my dogs will be allowed in, they have
always been best buds with their feline housemates.

[nadia.skylark]

You did not refute it.

My question was what, exactly, you believe I did not refute.

I know that quote from Jim but that is about ghosts, not about shades.

According to google, the (relevant) definition of shade is "a ghost." Unless you can provide evidence that Jim has a different definition, then you are saying "the quote is about ghosts, not about ghosts."

It is about most cases and clearly the book is not just about most cases

So now your argument is "the book is about exceptions, therefore every ghost in the book must be an exception"? Yeah, no.

and in the book Morty states that there are exceptions but usually not.

You're going to need to provide a quote for this one, because as I remember it Mortimer was the one telling Harry that there was no way he was the original Harry, and that he was definitely just a ghost. It was during the car ride to Murphy's house.

A Shade is different from a ghost. I have checked all the usages of the word in Ghost Story and they all refer to spirit + soul combinations and one suspect, Sir Stuart so that is a strong indication.

Several points:
1) Did you also check Grave Peril and Dead Beat?
2) Who used the word to refer to Harry? Because if it was anyone but Mab (and proxies), Demonreach, Uriel, and/or Bob, it actually disproves your point, because everyone not those people thought that Harry was a normal ghost.
3) Even if you're entirely correct that the word "shade" was only used to apply to ghosts that have souls and Sir Stuart's ghost by people who would know that said ghosts did have souls, it is still extremely weak evidence, because Harry, Corpsetaker, and Sir Stuart's ghost were the three most prominent ghosts in the book, and thus statistically are the ones most likely to end up being referred to by a synonym for "ghost" at some point.

Add that to Uriel's interest which is an even stronger indication.

And I have definitely already refuted this point.

[Arjan]

My question was what, exactly, you believe I did not refute.

According to google, the (relevant) definition of shade is "a ghost." Unless you can provide evidence that Jim has a different definition, then you are saying "the quote is about ghosts, not about ghosts."

Google? Really? That will probably tell you that spirit and soul are the same. Jim uses the terminology in his own way, he is creating the world and Ghost Story is where he really thinks it through. How he uses the terms in this book is leading not how someone on the internet defines it.

So now your argument is "the book is about exceptions, therefore every ghost in the book must be an exception"? Yeah, no.

That is a refutation on the idea that there are no exceptions

You're going to need to provide a quote for this one, because as I remember it Mortimer was the one telling Harry that there was no way he was the original Harry, and that he was definitely just a ghost. It was during the car ride to Murphy's house.

He did say it was possible but that the ghosts who claimed so where usually wrong even if they believed it themselves. Another reason why Sir Stuart wouldn't mention it and maybe even did not believe it himself.

Later on he did transfer Butters shade back to his body so he certainly knows about the possibility.

Several points:
1) Did you also check Grave Peril and Dead Beat?

No but even if I did I would take Ghost story as leading. It is the book that really fleshed out his ideas.

2) Who used the word to refer to Harry? Because if it was anyone but Mab (and proxies), Demonreach, Uriel, and/or Bob, it actually disproves your point, because everyone not those people thought that Harry was a normal ghost.

People who knew.

3) Even if you're entirely correct that the word "shade" was only used to apply to ghosts that have souls and Sir Stuart's ghost by people who would know that said ghosts did have souls, it is still extremely weak evidence, because Harry, Corpsetaker, and Sir Stuart's ghost were the three most prominent ghosts in the book, and thus statistically are the ones most likely to end up being referred to by a synonym for "ghost" at some point.

The word is not thrown around as a synonym just to make sentences run more smoothly.

And I have definitely already refuted this point.

Not in my opinion, I did not get that feeling I sometimes have when someone makes an argument that really refutes what I am saying.

[morriswalters]

This comes out of Jim trying to be cute.  I doubt if he can or would be willing to clarify it. Sir Stuart calls Harry both a Shade and a Ghost, and he refers to himself as a Ghost.  He also calls Capt. Murphy a Shade.  So we're left with, Uriel hires Ghosts. Or Shades.