Souls and Ghosts.

[Yuillegan]

In one of the latest DragonCon panels on Ghosts, https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wTq8RMv19Ek&feature=youtu.be, Jim discussed Ghosts, and obviously, Souls. around 24:50

He discussed the nature of people is by quoting C.S. Lewis "You are a soul, you have a body" (which Uriel says to Harry as well). He goes on to describe Souls as being "is something important. A soul is something vital. Something that exists beyond the bounds of Time and Space. It's here for a little while and then its gone like a flicker of sunlight. You can't really capture it; you can't catch it and you can't store it. It's beyond that - its part of the foundational energy of the universe. It's an echo of creation. And as a result it doesn't really get mired down in things like that."

So ghosts then differ as they are "some kind of remnants [of the person], some kind of memories that seem to get left over" "It's like water poured into a footprint - it's still in the shape of the original foot but its not energy" They aren't trapped but created as sort of a byproduct of a person's death. Some ghosts can change and become something else (but that would be an exceptional ghost). Most just continue in their endless cycle of being themselves.

There is a slight discrepancy in that Bob thinks Harry burns off his Soul when he uses Soulfire. But the way Jim puts it here, is that mortal concerns shouldn't really affect Souls.

But the more interesting implication is the sheer importance of a Soul. Something that comes from the beginning of Creation, that is Timeless and foundational. And vital. I would propose that it is vital to reality that Souls exists and have Choice. Perhaps why the Angels take it so seriously. Not to mention, it helps explain the incredible properties of Soulfire. Often called "the Life Fire" or "the Fires of Creation" - which makes sense considering it is fueled by the very energy of creation. Pure creative energy, I suppose. Perhaps this is why mortals have such a unique edge against the supernatural.

But then why then are Angels able to use Soulfire? They don't have Souls, that is a uniquely mortal thing... Except perhaps it isn't totally.

My WAG is then that perhaps Angels have something like a Soul, similar yet limited. The prototype version. But because they are so big and powerful, they could not have "Free" Will. They were allowed Will (in order for them to be at least somewhat autonomous) and had a degree of Choice (as Uriel displayed when he gave up his grace, or when the Fallen fell - different acts of course but required Choice). But they weren't given the full range of Choice as they had too much power or something like that. So naturally, some Angels then resented when Humans get the full range of Choice. What does that mean? I cannot be sure, but I suspect that it means Mortals have access to the Source or something like it, basically allowing them to Choose their own shape and destiny (dictated not by their wishes, but their Choices). An Angel cannot fully choose it's own shape or destiny. It may appear to alter things, but that is always in accordance with the plan. They have the illusion of Choice. Not sure I can delve into the mechanics much beyond that - but you get the idea I hope. 

[Bad Alias]

I took his statement that souls don't get mired down in things like that to mean that souls don't get "stuck" here on earth as ghosts.* I do think that mortal concerns will affect souls, but that physical concerns won't. What I mean by that is that you couldn't damage someone else's soul by a physical action. What could damage (or enhance) that soul is how the person chose to respond to the physical action. In the videos just released, Jim repeatedly talks about how choice is a really big deal in the Dresden Files, and I think that links in here. If choice doesn't matter to the soul, why/how does anything matter?

Both Bob and Harry admit that Bob doesn't really understand the faith side of the supernatural. Harry specifically applies this to Bob's understanding of soulfire. I think Jim did too. We've also been told that becoming a fairy not only could destroy Molly's soul but is likely to. I think a soul can be destroyed in the DF, not just damned, or Jim is intentionally misleading us.

*This doesn't seem to work with Harry's experience in Ghost Story. Captain Murphy's task force seemed to be more than ghosts and Harry was given the opportunity to stay on. Maybe the task force were the ghosts who become something more. Maybe Harry staying on would be the exception that proves the rule. Maybe Uriel knew Harry wouldn't stay on, but that seems problematic to me.

[Bad Alias]

Q: I’ve been wondering, is a magic-users longevity/ability to repair themselves due to their use of magic, or is it because they are able to access magic at all?
A: It’s because they /use/ magic.
Q: Charity Carpenter was able to use magic at one point; will she have an extended life?
A: Not unless she takes it up again, which would be extremely difficult and which she doesn’t want to do.
Q: And is the longevity tied to strength levels, as in do stronger wizards live longer?
A: Indeed. In the Dresden Files universe, magic is the essence of creation itself. Constant exposure to it through use changes the person who uses it in a number of ways, not all of them as obvious as physical recovery and longevity. The more exposure, the more dramatic the changes.

Source:  http://wordof.jim-butcher.com/index.php/word-of-jim-woj-compilation/woj-on-magic-in-the-dresden-files/
Ctrl + F Longevity. All three of these questions are right after the other.

Over in the Candidates for future Nemfection thread, Kindler posted the above WoJs. I immediately thought of this thread and the similarities to the description of the soul and magic re: the forces of creation.

[morriswalters]

But then why then are Angels able to use Soulfire? They don't have Souls, that is a uniquely mortal thing... Except perhaps it isn't totally.

“Oh, come on, Harry. All you mortals get all hung up over your precious souls. You’ve never seen your soul, never touched it, never done anything with it. What’s all the to-do?”
“So what you’re saying is that this hand construct was made out of my soul,” I said.
“Your soul and your magic fused together, yeah,” Bob said. “Your soul converted into energy. Soulfire. In this case, the spirit energy drawn from your aura right around your right hand, because it fit the construct so well, it being a big version of your right hand and all. Your standard force-projection spell formed around the matrix of soulfire, and what had been an instantaneous exertion of force became a long-term entity capable of manipulation and exertion to the same degree. Not really more powerful than just the force spell, as much as it was more than simply the force spell.”
I wiggled my tingling fingers. “Oh. But my soul’s going to get better, right?”
“Oh, sure,” Bob said. “Few days, a week or two at most, it’ll grow back in. Go out and have a good time, enjoy yourself, do some things that uplift the human spirit or whatever, and it’ll come back even faster.”
I grunted. “So what you’re saying is that soulfire doesn’t let me do anything new. It just makes me more of what I already am.”
“A lot more,” Bob said, nodding cheerfully from his shelf. “It’s how angels do all of their stuff. Though admittedly, they’ve got a lot more in the way of soul to draw upon than you do.”
“I thought angels didn’t have souls,” I said.
“Like I said, people get all excited and twitchy when that word gets used,” Bob said. “Angels don’t have anything else.”
“Oh. What happens if I, uh, you know. Use too much of it?”
“What’s five minus five, Harry?”
“Zero.”
“Right. Think about that for a minute. I’m sure you’ll come to the right conclusion.”

Take this for what it's worth.  Since Jim uses  Bob as an unreliable talking head.  Something I tend to tire of.

[peregrine]

Yeah.  Angels don't have souls.  Angels are souls.

[Yuillegan]

Yeah.  Angels don't have souls.  Angels are souls.

Yeah except as I stated in the OP, as Uriel (and C.S. Lewis) say, "You are a soul, you have a body".

Which I suppose could then beg a really interesting question - if both humans/mortals are souls, and Angels are souls, are humans/mortals and Angels one and the same? Perhaps at different ends of the spectrum? Angels are described as timeless (beyond time and space) just like mortal souls...there is clearly a strong relationship. Hmmm....

@Morriswalters: I tend to agree, I am getting sick of Bob being so unreliable. Why have a talking head otherwise? I know Jim enjoys it, but as a storytelling mechanic it becomes a bit lazy and annoying. The problem is that you begin to not really trust Bob, which then makes his scenes feel drawn out and somewhat irrelevant. I know it is a balance thing but surely there are more elegant ways to limit Bob and his impact on the story.

Curiously, we can actually tell Bob is wrong about a fair few things in that passage. Harry has in the past made it clear that some beings (such as Angels) are not just pure spirit, but are a mix of physical and spirit. Think back to the conversation with Kim Delaney in Fool Moon. Now admittedly, that might be retconned by now - but many beings actually fit that description still. Gods, immortals etc. And Harry says to Bob "So what you're saying is that soulfire doesn't let me do anything new. It just makes me more of what I already am" But in Cold Days, when Harry contests Mother Winter's will, he has the exact same revelation and says Bob didn't truly understand soulfire. Which is curious, because in this scene Bob agree with him. So which is it? Does Bob know what he is talking about or not?

Bad Alias: Thanks for bringing that to my attention. It is indeed curious that Jim often also describes magic as the forces of creation. And yet, there is a somewhat different quality to soulfire. But it is also described the same way. And Souls are described as a fundamental part of reality, an echo of Creation. So perhaps one could interpret that you need some kind of soul in order to work magic. However as we know, that isn't always the case. Many creatures of the Nevernever can work magic and don't have souls. And Necromancy seems to fly directly in the face of that (being fueled by the power of death, not life), let alone whatever fell power the Outsiders use. Perhaps Harry doesn't yet fully understand the broader nature of magic, or perhaps Jim's poetic phrasing is leading us in the wrong direction. Whatever the case, there is definitely a link and a mystery.

By the way, I wasn't saying that choice doesn't matter to the soul (in fact I said choice was vital to the soul). I was more referring to the fact that Jim had said that basically souls are largely unaffected by mortal events. Which I agree, seems contrary to their importance and relevance in the series. They seem to both be affected and affect everything around them. Perhaps this is one of those intentional discrepancies by Jim (such as the Fae being both from Mortal origins AND growing from dew drop creatures into powerful beings based on importance) and we are missing vital information that bridges the gap. As for the destruction or damning of souls...I think something Jim said sort of clarified this. He talked about how people can lose their souls everyday without any supernatural interference by being terrible humans. I think Serack had an excellent theory about the nature of souls and their components. It was similar to the Egyptian belief that a soul has many parts.

Consider this though - both Carmichael and Malcolm Dresden seem to be aware of more than the reality Harry perceives, and Malcolm seems aware of Harry's future. Perhaps they experience all time at once, like Angels do. Uriel certainly seems to.

[Bad Alias]

If angels exist outside of time, then that could explain their perceived lack of choice. Their choice(s) exist(s) in the past, present, and future simultaneously. It's not that they can't chose, they have already chosen. There is probably some wiggle room for choice when they interact with humans or handwaived as "beyond humans simple linear understanding of time." A mystery in the Catholic sense of the word. (A thing that is that cannot be fully comprehended).

[Avernite]

If angels exist outside of time, then that could explain their perceived lack of choice. Their choice(s) exist(s) in the past, present, and future simultaneously. It's not that they can't chose, they have already chosen. There is probably some wiggle room for choice when they interact with humans or handwaived as "beyond humans simple linear understanding of time." A mystery in the Catholic sense of the word. (A thing that is that cannot be fully comprehended).

Alternately, it's just an outgrowth of 'the more powerful, the more constrained'. IF that is a fundamental part of reality, as the books indicate but never spell out, then maybe Angels are so powerful they literally cannot go against their purpose without going against reality (or the natural order, whatever it is Lucifer did).

Of course, the case of Lasciel suggests angels CAN choose to play both sides, so maybe they're not utterly constrained as such; they're just operating on a level where they 100% KNOW that the road to hell is paved with good intentions; as soon as they swerve from their purpose a bit, they know they're going the path of the Fallen, and it scares them onto the straight and VERY narrow (and, by extension, any Angel who deviates knows he's falling anyway so why bother not Falling all the way at once?)

[Yuillegan]

Bad Alias: Oooh I like that. And it makes sense with what Uriel says when Harry asks him to fix his back (H: "Help me" U: "I've already done what I can" H: "But you haven't done anything!" U:"From your perspective, it would seem that way"). It also matches up with how Gods interact - Vadderung is more Mortal because he is involved in events, when you are outside of events you are less mortal but have less control. Like the Gods who appear to be dormant or sleeping, it is just from mortal perspective, they are just interacting with the time stream differently.

Avernite: A valid argument I think, especially in the sense of Power has Purpose, but I am not sure that Angels know everything in that way. We know that Angels have some version of Intellectus. But to what extent we don't know. I think it's all about the level of involvement. The more you participate, the less power you can use without consequence. I mean, we know that immortals are only truly vulnerable during conjunctions such as Halloween and places like Chicago-over-Chicago. If you were immortal, why would you show up if you were so vulnerable? My take is because of the "feeding, run free" thing. They can become stronger this way. But if an Angel already knew all that would happen to them...wouldn't they really just be going through the motions of their own life? Puppets dancing on the string? I don't think that is quite the case. I think they still have some level of autonomy, with heavy restrictions due to their very nature, and therefore can still FEEL (even if it is an illusion perhaps) at least like they have some measure of control over destiny.

[Bad Alias]

Alternately, it's just an outgrowth of 'the more powerful, the more constrained'. IF that is a fundamental part of reality, as the books indicate but never spell out, then maybe Angels are so powerful they literally cannot go against their purpose without going against reality (or the natural order, whatever it is Lucifer did).

Of course, the case of Lasciel suggests angels CAN choose to play both sides, so maybe they're not utterly constrained as such; they're just operating on a level where they 100% KNOW that the road to hell is paved with good intentions; as soon as they swerve from their purpose a bit, they know they're going the path of the Fallen, and it scares them onto the straight and VERY narrow (and, by extension, any Angel who deviates knows he's falling anyway so why bother not Falling all the way at once?)

I think you've hit upon a few things here. If the more power=more constraint idea is correct, and it has been strongly hinted at, then Lash, the shadow of Lasciel, has far less power than an angel, fallen or otherwise. Therefore, the shadow would have more room to maneuver.

As to the lack of choice angels have due to knowledge, this is almost explicitly stated in Ghost Story. Carmichael tells Harry he can't tell him some things because it would limit Harry's ability to choose. Knowledge limits choice. In Larry Niven's Known Space universe, the Protectors don't have choice because their advanced intelligence eliminates all options but the one best suited to their goals. Further, we have been repeatedly told that knowledge is power. As early as Fool Moon, Harry emphasizes that knowledge is what really makes wizards dangerous. If power constrains and knowledge is power, then knowledge constrains.

[Arjan]

I took his statement that souls don't get mired down in things like that to mean that souls don't get "stuck" here on earth as ghosts.* I do think that mortal concerns will affect souls, but that physical concerns won't. What I mean by that is that you couldn't damage someone else's soul by a physical action. What could damage (or enhance) that soul is how the person chose to respond to the physical action. In the videos just released, Jim repeatedly talks about how choice is a really big deal in the Dresden Files, and I think that links in here. If choice doesn't matter to the soul, why/how does anything matter?

Both Bob and Harry admit that Bob doesn't really understand the faith side of the supernatural. Harry specifically applies this to Bob's understanding of soulfire. I think Jim did too. We've also been told that becoming a fairy not only could destroy Molly's soul but is likely to. I think a soul can be destroyed in the DF, not just damned, or Jim is intentionally misleading us.

*This doesn't seem to work with Harry's experience in Ghost Story. Captain Murphy's task force seemed to be more than ghosts and Harry was given the opportunity to stay on. Maybe the task force were the ghosts who become something more. Maybe Harry staying on would be the exception that proves the rule. Maybe Uriel knew Harry wouldn't stay on, but that seems problematic to me.

I think all souls have the choice to stay on if their spiritual body is strong enough but if you believe in an afterlife the pull to go on to that afterlife is just very strong.  It explains stuff like ancestor worship, return to life of powerful necromancers and the old idea that some people linger on because they have unfullfilled bussiness.

[nadia.skylark]

Of course, the case of Lasciel suggests angels CAN choose to play both sides, so maybe they're not utterly constrained as such; they're just operating on a level where they 100% KNOW that the road to hell is paved with good intentions; as soon as they swerve from their purpose a bit, they know they're going the path of the Fallen, and it scares them onto the straight and VERY narrow (and, by extension, any Angel who deviates knows he's falling anyway so why bother not Falling all the way at once?)

Necro-ing this thread because I had a thought on this.

In Ghost Story, when talking to Harry Uriel describes humans as "two-year-olds playing with hand grenades" when talking about names. What if the same goes for choices, where angels and humans both technically have free will, it's just that angels, due to their knowledge, have far harsher consequences for exercising it?

After all, if a two-year-old lights the curtains of your house on fire because they like the pretty flames, and your house burns down, the two-year-old isn't going to be punished all that harshly, whereas if an adult does the same thing, they're going to go to jail for arson. Applying the same logic to humans and angels: humans don't know all the consequences of their actions, and even for those consequences they do know, they might not understand them. Therefore, if a human does a bad thing, they get the option to say "sorry" and try to do better in the future. An angel, on the other hand, understands all the consequences of their actions before they take them, so if they do a bad thing, they get punished for it to the full extent.

This reconciles angels claiming to not have free will with the WoJ we have that Uriel could technically have helped Harry more in Changes, he just would have Fallen if he did, since angels certainly wouldn't effectively have free will due to their knowledge, even if they technically did; and also reconciles the whole soul=free will thing.

[Yuillegan]

So the Angels are the adults in your theory, as opposed to us being the infants?

I don't mind it at all. But I cannot decide if I think humans are part of the Angel life-cycle. Not anywhere near enough evidence. But still...the idea is intriguing.

This would reconcile the whole soul - free will problem. But I am not so sure that I can rule out Bad Alias' idea that Angels are limited because they have already made their choices, to some extent. Humans are the random element in the equation though...hmm I don't know.

Arjan - well I think you are both half-right and half-wrong. I think it is likely that mortal's choices and beliefs affect their afterlife. Hades seems to give this away when he says he doesn't get as many souls as he used to. And there are MANY belief systems out there. Perhaps you can even make some choices after you die too.

But the WOJ I referred to earlier contradicts the idea that Souls linger. Souls don't linger, they move on. But the imprint created by them is a ghost or shade. Hence how he was able to interact with his own ghost to defeat the Kravos the Nightmare after he "died". Harry in Ghost Story was an anomaly. He had "died" and crossed over, but was not "gone". However, he was more like Astral Projecting. And he had the help of an Archangel to do it. So I don't believe for a second that his situation was anything like "normal".

As for what Necromancers do...well we have mostly only seen them animate corpses and bind spirits (which are more like corporeal ghosts). We only have one act of "full" resurrection so far: when Kumori brings back that Mob hitter. And she used a lot of power to do it, and the whole process seemed very unnatural. He screamed the whole time and the paramedic described it "as though he was being brought back against his will". Maybe Necromancers can bring back a Soul from the afterlife. But I can imagine quite a few Angels who would be upset by that. Perhaps they can only do the recently deceased as once a being has "fully" passed on and is "gone" there is no option.

[Bad Alias]

Maybe Necromancers can bring back a Soul from the afterlife.

Or maybe they can only bring back life (and maybe the ghost). If the soul is what makes mortals capable of understanding right and wrong, then bringing someone back without a soul would basically be creating a monster. You might not notice with a mobster.

[g33k]

... bringing someone back without a soul would basically be creating a monster. You might not notice with a mobster.

n.b. the difference can be minimal  (hey, somebody had to say it!)