Candidates for future Nemfection?

[morriswalters]

Maeve implies in cold days that she intended to Nfect Justine.

I had forgotten that.  Much like Archimedes lever and fulcrum.  A human worth infecting.  Maybe.

[Bad Alias]

As to the wizards/Whites aren't human debate, I try to be careful and either use the term "mortal" or "person" to try to distinguish different categories. It would be simple if the term mortal was always used the same way in the books, i.e., to refer to "vanillas" like Murphy and Marcone, but sometimes it's used to refer to wizards and such as well.

From my science learnin', when anything that can produce viable offspring with another thing, in their natural habitat, those two things are the same species. That would make Whites, Fae, Big Feet, and a host of other things human, but not mortal (unless you quibble about natural habitat).

[kbrizzle]

@morriswalters
I’m pretty sure Lea (or any other Fae) cannot accept artifacts that change the power balance of the Court without first consulting their ruler. Iirc, Mab says that Lea challenged her power once she had the athame like @Mira says. In the end, Mab is forced to take the athame as well as Harry’s debt in compensation to rebalance things. I’d be really curious about what happened there.

The Gatekeeper likely kills the host & attempts to contain the Outsider (perhaps to banish it back beyond the Outer Gates seeing as he & DR had a past disagreement (perhaps about an issue like this one)?). I’m fairly certain that once an Nfected host dies, the Nfection dies with it. After all, Mab did not seem unduly concerned about containing anything after Maeve dies in CD.

I’m also not sure that Whamps should be considered immortal. During the duel in WN, Harry explicitly says that the Whamps in attendance were entranced by Madrigal’s death since a typical Whamp is supposed to live for centuries. Besides, they are not true immortals since they can be killed any day of year, including Halloween.

@peregrine
I believe Lash says that Vito Malvora was “possessed by an Outsider” in WN. While I also don’t think that humans/ wizards can be Nfected, if I were playing Devil’s advocate, I would say that perhaps wizards/ quasi-mortals who get Nfected get a massive power boost, superhuman resilience & arcane knowledge? These are traits Cowl seems to show.

@g33k
Hmm not sure about that, the Aesir & Jotun don’t seem to be running around much these days (outside of Odin & his cohort). Hell, Monoc Securities seems to be functioning just fine without a Thunderer or any of the other Norse deities, so why wouldn’t Winter without most of its power (since it is derived through purpose in the DV) be able to function in the future without a WK?

[morriswalters]

From my science learnin', when anything that can produce viable offspring with another thing, in their natural habitat, those two things are the same species. That would make Whites, Fae, Big Feet, and a host of other things human, but not mortal (unless you quibble about natural habitat).

Neanderthals beg to differ, but it isn't really important.  Jim is somewhat vague about it, often using the term vanilla mortal.  My use is aimed at the idea, that what is important, isn't who you are, but how you can affect the outcome the Outsiders seek. 

@kbrizzle
The balancing is how Mab ends up with Harry's debt. And she still has the athame in Summer Knight.

She arched her brows. "You should know better, dear godchild. You know I cannot speak what is untrue. During our last encounter I returned to Faerie with great power and upset vital balances. Those balances had to be redressed, and your debt was the mechanism that the Queen chose to employ."
I frowned at her for a minute. "Returned with great power." My eyes fell to the knife at her waist. "That thing the vampires gave you?"
She rested her fingers lightly on the knife's hilt. "Don't cheapen it. This athame was no creation of theirs. And it was less a gift than a trade."

It's an interesting point for discussion, if not having a use by date is the same as not being able to be killed.

[Mira]

The balancing is how Mab ends up with Harry's debt. And she still has the athame in Summer Knight.
Quote

    She arched her brows. "You should know better, dear godchild. You know I cannot speak what is untrue. During our last encounter I returned to Faerie with great power and upset vital balances. Those balances had to be redressed, and your debt was the mechanism that the Queen chose to employ."
    I frowned at her for a minute. "Returned with great power." My eyes fell to the knife at her waist. "That thing the vampires gave you?"
    She rested her fingers lightly on the knife's hilt. "Don't cheapen it. This athame was no creation of theirs. And it was less a gift than a trade."

This has me confused,  Lea still has the knife after Mab has gained his debt...  After she was gifted the knife in Grave Peril Lea gives Bianca the Holy Sword that Harry lost to her when he tried to kill her with it.   We also know that a little human sacrifice was arranged as both entertainment and the breaking of a Holy Sword by it's misuse..  So my question is was the trade prearranged between Lea and Bianca?  In other words was the knife something that Lea wanted but couldn't get until she got lucky when Harry screwed up?   

[morriswalters]

Harry was manipulated.  Or so I believe.  Marva wanted to strike at Michael.  Bianca wanted Harry or war with the White Council.  And Cowl wanted to strike at Winter, or more precisely at Mab.  So my guess is that the deal was done in advance. However it is only a guess.

It is worth noting that Ferrovax got a gift.  If you go into full tin hat mode then it is possible that his gift was tainted as well.

[Mira]

Harry was manipulated.  Or so I believe.  Marva wanted to strike at Michael.  Bianca wanted Harry or war with the White Council.  And Cowl wanted to strike at Winter, or more precisely at Mab.  So my guess is that the deal was done in advance. However it is only a guess.

It is worth noting that Ferrovax got a gift.  If you go into full tin hat mode then it is possible that his gift was tainted as well.

A couple of things, and I wrote a post about this a while back, I think Lea may have possibly been infected before she got the knife.  She just seemed a bit too power hungry and not as loyal to her queen as she should be.  The events surrounding her helping young Harry for example,  she manipulates him into striking a bargain with her for help to take on Justin.  However he'd already taken on an Outsider successfully, and as Jim has pointed out at least once, she didn't give him anything in return for his promises other than some confidence..  Her offers to keep him safe by turning him into one of her hounds for example is hardly helpful, which leads him to grab and misuse a Holy Sword enabling her to take it to trade at the party...  She had to know what Bianca wanted to do with it, or those behind Bianca, that the Sword would be unmade and the side her Court is essentially on no matter how loosely the affiliation would be weakened.

[kbrizzle]

@morriswalters
Hmm despite Lea saying so about Harry’s debt we know that Mab possesses the athame by Changes, so we know that she took it from Lea. Whether she took it because she figured it is Nfected & this wanted it away from Lea, or simply because its an object of immense magical power is debatable.

@Mira
I agree, the symmetrical set up of the gift giving at Bianca’s ball had me confused as well. Here is how I see the BC thinking about it:

• They give the Nfected athame to Lea, who in turn gives it to Mab
• They gift Lea a magical artifact of great value knowing that she will owe them a huge, commensurate favor in return in order to ‘balance the scales’. Perhaps the favor they were planning to call in was inside knowledge of the defenses @ Arctis Tor.

So in a way, they didn’t care if Lea had something to gift them in return to balance the scales since they were covered either way. I believe that Mavra was always planning on killing the girl as a way to force Harry & Michael to break their guest privileges - that she had Amoracchius was the cherry on top.

It is also possible that the Ramps reached out to Lea & set up the trade, although it would be awfully last minute. Lea was only able to get Amoracchius through a lucky series of events a day or 2 before the ball. So I doubt there was a longer term plan for Lea to steal Amoracchius- it reads to me as being opportunistic.

[morriswalters]

Mab has the athame by Dead Beat.

Gift giving among the fae is symmetrical and part of canon.  If you give them a gift they must reciprocate.  At least that is my understanding.

[g33k]

  Wizards are only quasi humans, given that, in the Dresdenverse humans can't do magic and won't live to be 400 years old, nor have the capacity to rebuild a burnt hand ...

Nah, wizards are human.

Wizards just occupy a space within the "human range" not previously documented by science.

Humans and wizards look the same, intermingle socially, and interbreed freely.  Non-wizards can have wizard kids, and wizards can have non-wiz kids.

It doesn't entirely follow "normal" genetics.  Molly had the gift in part because Charity had lately been a practitioner; most/all the other kids have no gift, because Charity hasn't been using her gift at all.  Lysenko lives!

The unlimited healing and long lifespan don't seem to be a feature of being (or not-being) a wizard, but of doing magic; otherwise the folks like Charity would stick out like sore thumbs!  Any human doing magic will get those side effects, probably proportional to how often they work magic, and how powerful their workings.  So the innumerable minor talents will tend to heal slightly faster/better, and live longer, but it shows as "unusual, but not shocking."

[kbrizzle]

@morriswalters
That’s right about Mab, my mistake. Yes I believe that about Fae gift giving as well - so my point was that by giving Lea such a powerful magical artifact (there must be a handful of artifacts that would be in the same league as Amoracchius), the BC was trying to create a massive obligation on Lea’s part - one they would likely brutally exploit.

Perhaps Uriel arranged for Lea to get Amoracchius in GP - Lea likely only decided to keep the athame for herself because she had opportunistically been able to get her hands on a commensurate ‘return gift’ - this basically saves Mab from becoming Nfected like Lea was.

@g33k
While I mostly agree with you, I believe there is an obscure WoJ that almost all wizards have some Changeling blood in their ancestry in the past - this is why they are able to do magic

[morriswalters]

@g33k
Ok.  I say instead they are members of the sub species homo wizardnerds.   As distinct from the sub species homo sapiens. As a homo sap I should state that I am green with envy.  In particular of the spell flickum bicus.  As any rational person would be who has tried to start a camp fire in the rain.

[Bad Alias]

Neanderthals beg to differ, but it isn't really important.

Also dogs and coyotes. Either I've never found/been given the proper scientific definition of species, or it's a wrong/incomplete concept.

[Mira]

@g33k
Ok.  I say instead they are members of the sub species homo wizardnerds.   As distinct from the sub species homo sapiens. As a homo sap I should state that I am green with envy.  In particular of the spell flickum bicus.  As any rational person would be who has tried to start a camp fire in the rain.

Except if you consider Molly, she is a wizard, but her siblings are all vanilla mortals..  So your theory of wizards being a sub species doesn't quite work.

[morriswalters]

Also dogs and coyotes. Either I've never found/been given the proper scientific definition of species, or it's a wrong/incomplete concept.

I don't think the biologists understand it all that well.

@Mira
Jim plays fast and loose with biology.  On one hand he ascribes magic to a genetic combination.  On the other hand he he states to pass on magic you have to practice magic.  It doesn't make a lot of sense.