Candidates for future Nemfection?

[KurtinStGeorge]

 

Possible but doubtful that Bianca handled the knife herself..  Or Bianca could very well have been infected, but we will never know because she was killed by the ghosts of her victims.  Or she was showing symptoms in the guise of her delusions of grandeur and power.. 

Also in Cold Days Mab confirms that "it was the knife..."  That this is how Lea was infected and from her to Maeve..   So somehow Lea was infected by the knife and in turn infected Maeve,  Mab suspected and was able to deal with Lea in time, but not Maeve..  So is Mab wrong about this?

Perhaps I wasn't clear.  If Bianca wasn't the person who decided to hand out a Nemesis infected gift or gifts, the last thing the real culprit would want Bianca to do is decide to look at the item; perhaps before the party, and pick it up and in the simple act of examining it, become nemfected herself.  Seeing as Bianca was studying magic, it might be natural to assume she might want examine such a powerful artifact, both out of curiosity and to make sure it was an acceptable gift or trade item.  The best way to ensure that couldn't happen was for the Athame to only infect the individual who used it.     

[KurtinStGeorge]

@Yuillegan
The reason I think that Nemesis cannot affect mortals is exactly because of what Lily says - it changes things that ought not to change. Immortals are incapable of free will, & hence they cannot choose to change themselves even if they so desired.
Mortals however can choose to change, & do so often - what is the added benefit provided by Nemesis here apart from directing the nature of the choice to change? There are several ways Nemesis could influence a mortal’s choice without Nfecting them.
I also find Sells’ story to be more powerful without Nemesis being part of it. The story of a man driven to insanity by his unquenchable thirst for power shows the real pitfalls & dangers of black magic - this is why the WC forbids certain acts, because unchecked these acts lead to people becoming like Sells, Kravos & the beheaded Korean kid.

I take the Gatekeeper’s words about Harry being an obstacle to a lot of Outsider plans for most of the series as almost every bad guy Harry faces in the casefiles is either on the Black Council or being manipulated by them as a cats paw, not necessarily that they are all Nfected.

@Yuillegan & Bad Alias
I like the idea that there are 2 separate things kinds of black magic - the taint on someone’s soul from regular use/ one big use of black magic, & actually using the un-life spectrum of energy (since Harry says that his type of magic uses the life spectrum) to wield black magic.
I think one leads to the other - one cannot wield the un-life spectrum of energy without having a black magic taint on their soul. This is why Harry is adept at necromancy in DB - he has a huge taint on his soul from HWWB (and the fact that he has killed before).
However I do believe that in order to be able to wield magic from the un-life spectrum, one must seek knowledge from beyond the Outer Gates.

I think there's some evidence that indirectly supports your take on things.  As someone else pointed out, Lily was getting her information about Nemesis from Maeve, so that makes her a unreliable narrator when it comes to explaining who was or wasn't taken over by it.  More specifically, we know it was the wolf pelt belts which turned the FBI agents who used them into crazed killing machines, and we know this because Harry used one of the belts himself.  Unless Jim wants to change the narrative of the entire series and reveal that Harry has been nemfected since Fool Moon, which seems like a ludicrous idea, then the FBI agents weren't taken over by Nemesis either.  More likely, the wolf pelt belts used a corrupting type of Outsider magic, and nothing more.

So if Lily was wrong about the FBI agents, it's likely she was wrong about Victor Sells too.  Harry figured out that someone had to give Victor Sells training, because Sells wouldn't have known how to create something like the three-eye drug on his own.  So Victor's teacher introduced him to using Black Magic but didn't warn him about its side effects.  Also, it appeared Victor didn't know about the White Council either.  Harry had to explain them to Victor.  This destroys Lily's conception of events.  Victor's teacher is part of what Harry has called the Black Council and it appears they are in league with the Outsiders, or they think they are using the Outsiders, it doesn't matter which is the case.

So it appears to me that only a few high ranking members of the Winter and Summer Courts can be confirmed as direct Nemesis victims.  The FBI agents in Fool Moon and Victor Sells in Storm Front and probably Kravos in Grave Peril were only its pawns, but not controlled directly it.  They weren't victims exactly either.  They all made their own choices to use something they didn't and couldn't fully comprehend.

[Mira]

Perhaps I wasn't clear.  If Bianca wasn't the person who decided to hand out a Nemesis infected gift or gifts, the last thing the real culprit would want Bianca to do is decide to look at the item; perhaps before the party, and pick it up and in the simple act of examining it, become nemfected herself.  Seeing as Bianca was studying magic, it might be natural to assume she might want examine such a powerful artifact, both out of curiosity and to make sure it was an acceptable gift or trade item.  The best way to ensure that couldn't happen was for the Athame to only infect the individual who used it.     

Yes, however according to Mab, this is how Maeve got infected, up in the air whether or not because Lea let her handle the knife or directly from contact with Lea..

Cold Days page 503

" A few years back, you got angry.  So angry that when you spoke it made people fl;eed from the ears.  That is why.  Because you figured out that the adversary had taken Maeve.  And it hurt.  To know that the adversary had gotten to her."
  " It was the knife,"  Mab said.
"Knife?"
"Morgana's atame," Mab said in a neutral tone---but her eyes were far away.  "The one given to her by the Red Court at Bianca's masquerade.  That is how the Leananside was tainted--and your godmother spread it to Maeve before I could set it right."

So according to Mab,  once infected Lea was indeed able to pass on the infection to another, in this case her daughter...  So either the knife was capable of spreading the infection to more than one or the individual once infected could spread it to others..  If you think about it it makes sense, if Bianca was infected by handling it, then giving it to Lea would have no effect save the power trip that Lea was already on.. If only Lea was infected by it there would be no way for her to pass it onto Maeve..  If the enemy wanted to create chaos with in the Winter Court, while Lea alone could cause damage, an epidemic of infection or infestation would create more..

[Lady Inez]

Back to the question of future Nemfection, I reckon Harry will be infected, and this will be what causes him to cease being the Winter Knight. Something has to, at some point, since I don't see him staying in that role for the rest of the series, and I don't think Mab would let him go (and let him live) unless she absolutely had to. If Mab (or Molly?) needs to break the infection, it's possible that removing the mantle is necessary. It wouldn't have worked with Lea because of how long she's had her mantle, but Harry or Molly, maybe.

[g33k]

Back to the question of future Nemfection, I reckon Harry will be infected, and this will be what causes him to cease being the Winter Knight. Something has to, at some point, since I don't see him staying in that role for the rest of the series, and I don't think Mab would let him go (and let him live) unless she absolutely had to. If Mab (or Molly?) needs to break the infection, it's possible that removing the mantle is necessary. It wouldn't have worked with Lea because of how long she's had her mantle, but Harry or Molly, maybe.

Does Lea even have a Mantle?  I think she's just personally powerful.  Not all powers are "mantles" per se...

I note that Vadderung seems able to put the "Kringle" mantle on, and take it off, more or less at will.  I've been suspecting that Harry will learn this trick.

I think the Winter Knight mantle will be needed by Starborn Harry the Wizard in the BAT, where (I suspect) the Outsiders mount a huge offensive.  But as you note, there's likely to be some non-Winter Harry between now and then!
 
Tentatively, I peg "Fight Night" for this.  Harry wrestles gods, needs WK-Mantle to be more than a punching-bag, gets respect, one of them teaches him the trick for handling Mantles.
 

[kbrizzle]

A general comment about Lea & the athame: We must remember that the athame itself is so powerful that it is considered to be equal value to Amoracchius. So let’s sidestep the Nfection for a second (we’ll get back to it).

Here is the sequence of events from Lea’s POV -
Lea gets Amoracchius in GP, however it is kinda useless to her due to its nature. Lea manages to exchange Amoracchius for Morgana’s athame, which is an artifact whose power can likely be tapped by a Sidhe.

Lea is probably supposed to turn over the athame to her Queen so as to not upset the balance, however being a power-hungry Winter Fae, she is tempted to see if she can use the athame to overcome “that which stalks us all”. She fails & is instead Nfected. The likely target of this Black Council ploy is Mab, with Lea having been incidentally Nfected (clearly not something Nemesis is opposed to).

By merely choosing to keep/ use the athame, Lea upsets the power balance in the Winter Court - Mab has to take away Harry’s debt in compensation (talk about equal value!) to balance things. I wonder if this seemingly ‘free-willed’ choice on Lea’s part is what told Mab she was Nfected?

@KurtinStGeorge
Exactly - we only see high-level elder Sidhe get Nfected in the series so far, so having C/D grade bad guys like Sells & Kravos also be ‘Nfected’ would somehow cheapen the danger posed by Nemesis.

It is also clear that Nemesis cannot spread beyond a certain audience - if it is spreadable over a larger audience, everyone would know about it thus defeating one of its’ greatest weapons. My WAG is that Nemesis can only possess 3 people at a time.

@Lady Inez & g33k
The purpose of Winter is protect the DV from Outsiders - this is why they have the power etc. that they do. My WAG is that post-BAT, the Outsider threat will be neutralized once & for all - when this happens, what becomes of Winter’s purpose? Without the looming threat of Outsiders, the Fae courts will lose a lot of their raisin d’etre & power. Perhaps they will no longer require Knights, thereby freeing Harry?

[morriswalters]

I don't think the athame was ever meant to be Mab's.  The way I read it is that it was an arrangement between Marva, Bianca, and Lea.  The sword was obtained by Lea.  To get the athame Mab would have had to give Lea a gift of equal value, isn't that canon?  And if the athame infected after being used then  Lea was infected almost immediately.  Since she opens some kind of portal with it.

[Mira]

I don't think the athame was ever meant to be Mab's.  The way I read it is that it was an arrangement between Marva, Bianca, and Lea.  The sword was obtained by Lea.  To get the athame Mab would have had to give Lea a gift of equal value, isn't that canon?  And if the athame infected after being used then  Lea was infected almost immediately.  Since she opens some kind of portal with it.

No, it wasn't, Lea wanted it because she wanted Mab's job...  Mab saw it and confiscated it.

[g33k]

@Lady Inez & g33k
The purpose of Winter is protect the DV from Outsiders - this is why they have the power etc. that they do. My WAG is that post-BAT, the Outsider threat will be neutralized once & for all - when this happens, what becomes of Winter’s purpose? Without the looming threat of Outsiders, the Fae courts will lose a lot of their raisin d’etre & power. Perhaps they will no longer require Knights, thereby freeing Harry?

Winter is its own thing; being the Army Defending The Gate is a new gig for Winter... probably dating back to the Battle of Hastings or so.

Before that, it seems to have been one or more of the pagan gods.

Winter will move along just fine if the Outsider threat is neutralized.  Possibly the Summer/Winter Courts will be a bit more balanced?

I expect the Knights will continue:  "knights" seem like an integral part of medieval-esque "courts."

Dunno... maybe Mab will die, Molly will advance from Lady, and Harry will advance from Winter Knight to Winter's King, and they'll finally resolve that element of their relationship (yes, I know the DV doesn't seem to have such a thing; this mini-WAG includes that there IS such a role, but for some reason the role is unoccupied, or submerged in some other activity due to the War at the Outer Gates).

Or maybe Harry will figure out how to strip off Faerie Mantles, and get both himself and Molly out

I mean... we don't even know what's happening in the already-written next novel... and we're WAG'ing about the BAT & beyond?!?   Why yes... yes we are.       

[peregrine]

We can't even be sure that non-fae CAN be infected.  So far 100% of the known infected people are fae, being Lea, Maeve, Aurora, and Cat Sith.  Others may be manipulated by those who are infected, but not necessarily infected themselves.  Or even straight out working with them, but of their own free will.

I almost think that a creature with Free Will can not be infected, if the whole thing is to go against one's nature, as Free Will already lets someone do that.

[morriswalters]

There are no humans who have the capacity to do much even if they were nemfected. So why bother? The outsiders want the Outer Gates to fall.

[Mira]

There are no humans who have the capacity to do much even if they were nemfected. So why bother? The outsiders want the Outer Gates to fall.

Um, Harry is human, as is those on the White Council, the Holy Knights, White Vamps in my opinion as mere hosts for the Hunger Demon can be considered human, at least Thomas is according to Mab..   All have the capacity to do a great deal if they can become infected...

[morriswalters]

Wizards are only quasi humans, given that, in the Dresdenverse humans can't do magic and won't live to be 400 years old, nor have the capacity to rebuild a burnt hand.  White Court vamps are immortal.  The Knights are a special case, but even they don't have access to the Outer Gates nor the ability to do much about it if they did.  It isn't their brief.

You know, there is one question I haven't heard asked.  What does the Gatekeeper do if he finds one of the wounded who has been Nemfected?

[peregrine]

As I recall, it explicitly takes a human to summon an Outsider directly into our world.  And Wizards are human enough, if they have Free Will, for the purposes of my post. 

[narphoenix]

Maeve implies in cold days that she intended to Nfect Justine.