Author Topic: How did the Red Court Originate?  (Read 19480 times)

Offline Bad Alias

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Re: How did the Red Court Originate?
« Reply #15 on: August 22, 2019, 06:56:41 PM »
"'Southbound trains are running pretty quick lately.' he said, looking down at me. 'I figured you probably didn't want to hook up with that one, mister man.'"

Offline kbrizzle

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Re: How did the Red Court Originate?
« Reply #16 on: August 23, 2019, 05:01:51 AM »
There were a large number of half-turned (still human) proto-Ramp's.  I presume they had souls, and -- if they were ticketed for a Southbound Train -- would've contributed.

Similarly, there were a bunch of purely-human servants, and useful tools protected from enemies, who likely were doing pretty direly "sinful" stuff; and when the Ramp-protection expired... so did they.

Last but not least, the power-vacuum undoubtedly lead to innumerable acts of violence and murder as various parties tried to grab portions of the Red's holdings... creating yet more work on the Southbound line.
While it’s not explicitly stated in the books (so far anyway), I believe you need to have a soul in order to perform a death curse. Iirc Eb specifically asks Harry how he’s going to deal with Mavra’s death curse in BR. So this implies that all vamps have souls.

Offline Yuillegan

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Re: How did the Red Court Originate?
« Reply #17 on: August 23, 2019, 05:12:56 AM »
Bad Alias & Kbrizzle: Whilst BA and I have no hard evidence that Lord Raith is the first Wamp, he seems a helluva lot stronger than the next Wamp. Lara never would have tried such an overt assault had he been at full strength, and he was almost completely drained. He certainly fits the description that Jim talked about (if a Wamp had strong sorcerer-level powers). He had his 'Kiss of Death' move, a one shot feeding move. Very dangerous in close-quaters. I imagine before Margaret stymied his ability to feed, he would have generally had a big reserve tank of energy (which he likely replenished often). He seemed to have extensive knowledge and powers that his rivals seemed unable to match. None of which make him the oldest, but we really haven't seen or heard of anyone in the White Court coming close. Plus his apparent immunity to magic (even from the Blackstaff - that is incredibly significant, that we haven't even met any other being who is so protected - including the ALL the Faerie Queens i.e. even the Mothers). Whilst Uriel seems to ignore the normal rules a lot of the time, we cannot be sure even he is so protected. So I think that even if he isn't the progenitor of his race, it hardly matters. There is a reason why he became the White King, and the others didn't. I imagine he is one of the oldest at any rate. The White Court is very Darwinian, they don't let threats survive. Rather like humanity - they don't rush to punch everything in the nose that is dangerous to them. They find the appropriate tools and learn as much as they can about their foes. Then they trap or kill them. There is a very good reason why they are still around, and the Reds and the Black Court (who might be overtly stronger), are not.

Kbrizzle: I pretty much agree with everything your saying there. My only point of contention is that the Whites are the oldest. The "Cradle of Civilisation" exists in a lot of places, but Italy isn't one. South America, particularly Peru and Norte Chico, are far older appearing between 4700-3200BC (roughly 5-7000 years old) whereas the Estruscans appeared roughly after 900BC.  Which makes a lot of sense in a way. The Red Court, whilst highly organised and hierarchical, is a theocracy. The White Court is much like the Ancient Romans, with great Houses and Nobles, and a nominal King or Emperor ruling over - a Monarchy. The Whites are more overtly refined and subtle (though not necessarily more complex) than the Reds who are more aggressive and savage. They seem to reflect the periods they may have risen in, just as much as the surrounding culture and area that they came from. The fact that they predate the White Council is not that surprising, considering Merlin would have existed not much earlier than 500C.E. which is 1400 years later...and Merlin formed the White Council. But yes, the Red King is probably at least 4000 years old, if not quite a bit older. He and the Lords of the Outer Night are in a different league to the Whites in terms of raw power. Probably why the Blamps were so hated is they became a significant, if not one of the most significant, Powers in the space of a few decades and/or centuries when normally it takes a few millennia to become a major player and it scared the crap out of everyone.

KurtinStGeorge: Yes the constant retconning does make it hard to keep up, but the normal rule as you say is to go with the most recent information. It does make sense of course that Jim would change a few minor details, as he gets older and better as a writer he can see better and more interesting paths to take, and ones that will create less problems. I don't mind a lot of the changes he has made by and large as most have been necessary and for the better. I would love a sort of Q&A answer that tidied up the plot holes and inconsistencies, but I am just being lazy. You can fix those problems if you think about it. For instance, it might be that the Reds ARE creatures of the Nevernever and have trouble with threshholds (like all magical creatures) but they also have work arounds (like Wizards), AND soul gazes aren't likely as they don't have what HARRY would call a soul, but have *something* that remains of their original soul and of course have their hypnotic stare ability. It is even hinted and somewhat discussed that a Soul isn't merely one thing but more a collection of things, and how you define, interact, gain or lose it is highly complex and doesn't always fall into the magic system that Harry understands. So there is actually quite a bit of wriggle room left.

isoycrazy: Thanks for the heads up, I haven't read Bigfoot yet! But I think, as you speculate yourself, that perhaps she wasn't as inclined to kill him not just because of True Love (which would have killed her demon), but perhaps because she was feeding on a non-human mortal that was probably a bigger meal magically speaking. I also imagine it is exceedingly rare, to the point that Thomas seemed certain that the first feeding was always fatal. Also you will notice apart from Connie, no other Wamp has been mentioned as being in this category (past or present). Shame, fear and perhaps survival all might play there part in that. Which of course shows the gap in Thomas' knowledge (and could also be a retcon/rewrite of Jim's) but essentially means that without killing your first feed, the chances of becoming a full-blown White Court Vampire are very very slim. Which also lends itself nicely to the idea of mortals and choice, in that you as a mortal can still subvert the normal rules with your choices in ways the more supernatural creatures find difficult. Choosing to feed and not kill? Would definitely make you an unusual vampire to say the least. I wonder what effects that would have?

Just Al: Quite possibly, but not necessarily. The time frame doesn't work as well if it were Aztecs. Although as that passage also mentions, this story is quite possibly somewhat apocryphal and a mix of half-truths and fantasies. The main point is that the Reds captured a bunch of scary Gods, and the LoON and the Red King fed on them. Interestingly, that Paranet Papers update discusses that those Gods were still alive when the Reds were destroyed, and might be making a come back.

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Offline Bad Alias

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Re: How did the Red Court Originate?
« Reply #18 on: August 23, 2019, 03:26:30 PM »
Lord Raith killed his brother by throwing him out of an airplane, suggesting he only killed him within the past 100 years or so. Why would he kill him only recently? He has plenty of other family members in House Raith, suggesting a founder several generations back.

Offline Yuillegan

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Re: How did the Red Court Originate?
« Reply #19 on: August 24, 2019, 04:55:51 AM »
Well most of the Red King's family was still around before the end of the Reds...so why would Lord Raith's family members being alive be so strange? When it comes to immortals (in the eternal youth/no dying of old age sense - not godlike sense) I think they do their best NOT to get killed. Giving up Eternity is a big thing. There have probably been many attempts to kill Lord Raith over the decades and centuries...but why risk direct combat where you might lose when you can keep throwing dangerous enemies at them whilst maintaining your life and plausible deniability? The White King killed his brother as he was gaining too much power and became a real threat. Perhaps he wasn't before that. Although the fact Lord Raith HAS a brother does indicate somewhat that they had a sire...whoever that was. But the idea that just because he has family still alive today which makes him not old enough to be at least one of the originals, if not the original, doesn't really work with immortals. I mean Lara Raith is over 2 centuries old, whereas Thomas is maybe 10 years at most older than Harry. That could be 150 years between siblings. Harry's mother could have almost been 100 when she had him. His Grandfather is 250 years older. So I wouldn't get too hung up on how relatively recent things happened, and which family members are alive.
« Last Edit: August 24, 2019, 05:21:05 AM by Yuillegan »
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Offline Bad Alias

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Re: How did the Red Court Originate?
« Reply #20 on: August 24, 2019, 07:53:49 AM »
His extended family being around and vampires points to a vampire progenitor of House Raith that isn't Lord Raith. His vampire brother points to a shared vampire ancestor. The other houses indicate other progenitors of houses. However, they could be Raith's decedents who changed feeding methods and split off from house Raith, but that would make his emphasis on family odd.

I think all this makes for a fairly strong case that he isn't the first WCV. Now, even if he isn't the first WCV, he could be the first White Court King.

The way I see his brother's murder going down is that his brother helped him take the throne and consolidate his power. Once he consolidated his power, he started in on potential rivals, like his brother. This might also be where he started killing his sons. This sort of thing isn't too uncommon in crime families, dictatorships, and monarchies.

On the other hand, he may have killed his brother after Margaret cursed him because he was vulnerable.

Offline Con

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Re: How did the Red Court Originate?
« Reply #21 on: August 24, 2019, 07:55:06 AM »
Where are you getting Papa Raith killing his brother?

Offline Bad Alias

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Re: How did the Red Court Originate?
« Reply #22 on: August 24, 2019, 07:59:10 AM »
I don't recall where, but it's mentioned that he went "sky diving without a parachute." I think I have the quote right. It is heavily implied that it was Papa's doing. Something like he "arranged for him to go sky diving without a parachute."

Offline Bad Alias

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Re: How did the Red Court Originate?
« Reply #23 on: August 24, 2019, 08:11:12 AM »
I can't seem to find it or a source citing where to find it, but I did find a couple of refrences to it on tvtropes. https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Characters/TheDresdenFilesTheVampires

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Cain and Abel: Sent Madrigal and Madeleine's father skydiving without a parachute.
Quote
Make It Look Like an Accident: Like all the Whites, his preferred method of dealing with people.
...
His brother died in a parachuting accident he had nothing to do with either.

Offline Vodyanoy

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Re: How did the Red Court Originate?
« Reply #24 on: August 24, 2019, 01:51:50 PM »
The Madrigal's father going skydiving without a parachute was in Proven Guilty, it comes up when they're talking about how Madrigal ended up with the Jann.

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Thomas nodded. 'Scion of a djinn and a mortal. He worked for Madrigal's father. Then my father arranged to have Madrigal's father go skydiving naked. Glau stuck with Madrigal after that.'

Not sure of the hard copy page no. since I've only got the DF books through ibooks.

Offline Bad Alias

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Re: How did the Red Court Originate?
« Reply #25 on: August 24, 2019, 05:24:00 PM »
I was searching for "parachute."

Offline kbrizzle

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Re: How did the Red Court Originate?
« Reply #26 on: August 25, 2019, 05:52:17 PM »
Bad Alias & Kbrizzle: Whilst BA and I have no hard evidence that Lord Raith is the first Wamp, he seems a helluva lot stronger than the next Wamp. Lara never would have tried such an overt assault had he been at full strength, and he was almost completely drained. He certainly fits the description that Jim talked about (if a Wamp had strong sorcerer-level powers). He had his 'Kiss of Death' move, a one shot feeding move. Very dangerous in close-quaters. I imagine before Margaret stymied his ability to feed, he would have generally had a big reserve tank of energy (which he likely replenished often). He seemed to have extensive knowledge and powers that his rivals seemed unable to match. None of which make him the oldest, but we really haven't seen or heard of anyone in the White Court coming close. Plus his apparent immunity to magic (even from the Blackstaff - that is incredibly significant, that we haven't even met any other being who is so protected - including the ALL the Faerie Queens i.e. even the Mothers). Whilst Uriel seems to ignore the normal rules a lot of the time, we cannot be sure even he is so protected. So I think that even if he isn't the progenitor of his race, it hardly matters. There is a reason why he became the White King, and the others didn't. I imagine he is one of the oldest at any rate. The White Court is very Darwinian, they don't let threats survive. Rather like humanity - they don't rush to punch everything in the nose that is dangerous to them. They find the appropriate tools and learn as much as they can about their foes. Then they trap or kill them. There is a very good reason why they are still around, and the Reds and the Black Court (who might be overtly stronger), are not.

Kbrizzle: I pretty much agree with everything your saying there. My only point of contention is that the Whites are the oldest. The "Cradle of Civilisation" exists in a lot of places, but Italy isn't one. South America, particularly Peru and Norte Chico, are far older appearing between 4700-3200BC (roughly 5-7000 years old) whereas the Estruscans appeared roughly after 900BC.  Which makes a lot of sense in a way. The Red Court, whilst highly organised and hierarchical, is a theocracy. The White Court is much like the Ancient Romans, with great Houses and Nobles, and a nominal King or Emperor ruling over - a Monarchy. The Whites are more overtly refined and subtle (though not necessarily more complex) than the Reds who are more aggressive and savage. They seem to reflect the periods they may have risen in, just as much as the surrounding culture and area that they came from. The fact that they predate the White Council is not that surprising, considering Merlin would have existed not much earlier than 500C.E. which is 1400 years later...and Merlin formed the White Council. But yes, the Red King is probably at least 4000 years old, if not quite a bit older. He and the Lords of the Outer Night are in a different league to the Whites in terms of raw power. Probably why the Blamps were so hated is they became a significant, if not one of the most significant, Powers in the space of a few decades and/or centuries when normally it takes a few millennia to become a major player and it scared the crap out of everyone.
Well we don’t really know how strong the progenitor of the Whamps would be. We do know that Lord Raith has a vast library of arcane knowledge & was adept at using it to further his own goals - perhaps the reason he was so disproportionately powerful compared to other Whamps is because he is magically enhanced? We do know about his magical immunity & suspect it comes from the Outside.

Separately, by the time of WN we see that the other Whamp nobles are openly insulting the White King (calling him “weak & aged” & accusing him of allowing opportunities to “slip through his impotent fingers” etc.) - I don’t think they would be that brazenly insulting against the progenitor of their court.
Lord Raith explicitly points out to Lara at the end of BR that the White Court does not follow the leader of House Raith, rather the White King/ Queen is an earned position. This also implies that House Raith is not the progenitor of their court & that perhaps in the past House Raith was not always in power.
Also, as Harry states in WN, Whamps are supposed to live for centuries - they are not immortal, just extremely long-lived (perhaps because they are so close to humans unlike Ramps or Blamps). So I don’t know why Lord Raith would be considered particularly old. IIRC in BR when Harry & Thomas are walking through the gallery of Raith Sr.’s brood mares, they seem to start in the 15-16th century. If Lord Raith were really ~2000-3000+ years old, I would expect him to start having kids a lot sooner.

None of the major powers of the mortal world in the DV can be protected by something with its origins in the Outside... We know that Outsiders in general are incredibly hard to fight & their magic is almost alien in nature. The only wizards who seem to be effective against them are Rashid, Langtry & Starborn Harry. I wouldn’t be surprised if Uriel or the Sidhe royalty could also deal some damage to Outsiders in a fight. None of the people I’ve mentioned outside of Harry seem to have much of an interest in Lord Raith, so I doubt they fought him. Even at his peak, I wouldn’t like his chances with any of them (perhaps he could take out the Ladies).
Also remember that Lord Raith’s Outsider protection is only magical - it doesn’t protect him from physical attacks. Like Harry almost does in BR, a sufficiently powerful adversary could beat Lord Raith to death despite his protections (hard to do as that would be).

Regarding your point about the Whamps being younger than the Reds: By your logic, Etruscans started their civilization almost 3000 years ago, making the Whamps about that old. I don’t see how a 1000 year difference would make the Whamps particularly more civilized than the Ramps.
Instead my explanation as to why the Whamp hierarchy & customs are the way they are is because they are the closest to humans - sorta like why the Sidhe are much more similar to humans than the other kinds of Fae (they are closest to humans).
Also my point was that wizards predate the White Council, so Latin being their court language doesn’t make wizardry 1500 years old. Similarly just because the Whamps use Etruscan, doesn’t mean that they don’t predate that civilization.
« Last Edit: August 25, 2019, 06:05:00 PM by kbrizzle »

Offline Yuillegan

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Re: How did the Red Court Originate?
« Reply #27 on: October 03, 2019, 07:40:55 AM »
Just found an old WOJ that says that Lord Raith is several thousand years old, and has 2 thousand year of paranoia built up.

I would say that even if he isn't the oldest or progenitor, he is probably pretty close.

Quote
How old is Lord Raith?
He’s a couple thousand years old.  He’s got 2 thousand years of paranoia kinda built up.  Plus he’s been absolutely bonkers the past 30 years or so.  He’s hardly functional as a vampire, he’s getting to where he’s not evne functional as a figure head for much longer.  That’s going to be a problem for lara to deal with.
Will we find out about Lord Raith’s library?
There’s kind of a long game going on in the Dresden Files, and Lord Raith has been involved in it in the last couple of cycle’s it’s gone on.  He’s been trying to educate himself about it, and he meant to be a player in it this time it came around, but getting involved with Margret kind of screwed him over.
Lara’s got his library now and knows everything he knows, which explains a lot of her actions.
https://youtu.be/4Gmu76ritoQ?t=2510
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Offline Bad Alias

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Re: How did the Red Court Originate?
« Reply #28 on: October 03, 2019, 03:16:56 PM »
Since the language of the White Court is Etruscan, I'd assume that the Court was founded in the Etruscan civilization which was from 900 B.C. to 300 B.C. according to Wikipedia. Unless Jim meant Raith is literally a couple of thousand years old, his statement is vague enough that we can't say for certain that Raith was around during the Etruscan civilization, but we can't say he wasn't either.

Offline Yuillegan

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Re: How did the Red Court Originate?
« Reply #29 on: October 04, 2019, 02:17:44 AM »
My point really is that 1) He is probably the oldest White Court vampire. Power and rank do seem closely aligned with seniority in the supernatural world. 2) The Red King is almost certainly older, and so is the Red Court.
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