Author Topic: Overall series questions  (Read 14856 times)

Offline Mira

  • Needs A Life
  • ***
  • Posts: 24358
    • View Profile
Re: Overall series questions
« Reply #15 on: August 19, 2019, 08:38:34 PM »
Location 1347 in the Kindle version.  This is the just after the party at Arctis Tor.

Thanks, I don't remember that..  Found it,  interesting she seems to blame the dementia on Maeve's madness.  One wonders why Mab could help Sarissa but not Maeve..  Also which side of the family did it come from?

Offline kbrizzle

  • Conversationalist
  • **
  • Posts: 381
    • View Profile
Re: Overall series questions
« Reply #16 on: August 20, 2019, 01:52:40 AM »
@morriswalters & Yuillegan
I took Sarissa’s comment to be describing her half-Fae nature since she is a Changeling. Also remember that since prior becoming the Summer Lady she remained a Changeling, she can still lie.

We know that Maeve wasn’t mentally insane per se, she was Nfected. She was also a spoiled girl who wanted power but chafed under the responsibilities that came with that power - working with Nemesis was her way of being utterly selfish/ deluded. She wasn’t really megalomaniacal, just a supernatural mean girl.

Offline Bad Alias

  • Posty McPostington
  • ***
  • Posts: 2208
    • View Profile
Re: Overall series questions
« Reply #17 on: August 20, 2019, 02:11:25 AM »
From a narrative/ furthering the series standpoint, what is the purpose of Ghost Story? While it gave us a much more detailed perspective on tertiary characters (like Mort) & a good overview of the ghost/spirit world, what was the point of the novel? It seems like the central plot could’ve been boiled down to a longer short story

When I first read the series, I accidentally skipped Ghost Story. I didn't notice until about a third of the way into Cold Days that I had even missed anything. To answer the question, Harry has to confront what he did in Changes, it has to happen in a novel, and be the main focus of that novel. Short stories are generally viewed as supplemental material that the average reader isn't expected to read, or at least that's my impression.

Quote
But as we know, the 200 Wardens (during and previous to Dead Beat) were about 20% of the White Council.
How do we know that again?

I think Maeve was always crazy. Molly said she had a backlog that goes farther back than Maeve's infection.

Fairies die. They sort of melt because they are mortal and not mortal, so they are partially made of ectoplasm. I'm sure I read that somewhere. Don't recall where.

Offline Yuillegan

  • White Council
  • Posty McPostington
  • *****
  • Posts: 1384
  • Forum Moderator
    • View Profile
Re: Overall series questions
« Reply #18 on: August 20, 2019, 03:10:38 AM »
How do we know that again?
Basic math and inference...although I have a nagging feeling there is WOJ backing it up. In DB in the initial assault in Sicily, the White Council lost 38 Wardens. Harry says directly there are only about 200 Wardens on the Council. But he says basically 20% of the White Council is wiped out in a day. He also constantly and consistently mentions that precious few Wizards are capable of combat magic, and most are Wardens. I believe Backup also puts it at Between 1000 and 2000. I think we can guess even if there are roughly 7000 Wizards capable of being on the White Council, only a small amount would actually be on the Council due to a variety of factors such as lack of resources in finding these potential candidates, the increase in warlocks, the distrust of the council, and predatory actions by sinister actors such as the Fomor.

I think Maeve was always crazy.
Yes - but in a manageable way. Remember when we first meet her in Summer Knight? Crazy, but not self-destructive. Only later does she become infected by Nemesis...from either Leah or Aurora. That's when she really goes off the rails and starts being able to lie and wanting to throw off the balance, like Aurora.

Fairies die. They sort of melt because they are mortal and not mortal, so they are partially made of ectoplasm. I'm sure I read that somewhere. Don't recall where.

WOJ 2014 AMA
Matter from the Nevernever dissolves into ectoplasm in the real world, but the faeries leave a corpse when they die. Explanation?
"Faeries are a unique case in the Nevernever, as the beings who basically straddle the worlds. Plus there are other reasons which are none of your beeswax just yet ;)"
« Last Edit: August 21, 2019, 05:35:04 AM by Yuillegan »
Hi, I'm a moderator. We're here to help. Please remain calm. Don't go outdoors.

Offline morriswalters

  • Posty McPostington
  • ***
  • Posts: 2547
    • View Profile
Re: Overall series questions
« Reply #19 on: August 20, 2019, 08:26:41 AM »
Maeve doesn't appear to have the symptoms of dementia, and if she had, she would have been dead long since, since that is the inevitable outcome of dementia.  Not compatible with immortality.  The disease doesn't turn you into a psychotic, murdering nympho.  It steals your humanity and then kills you.  I suggest that Jim chose this as a shorthand because he wanted the sisters to be alive concurrently. Which means that Mab made Sarissa immortal.  It could also mean that Sarissa and Maeve were once part of triplets and that one died.

Offline Mira

  • Needs A Life
  • ***
  • Posts: 24358
    • View Profile
Re: Overall series questions
« Reply #20 on: August 20, 2019, 10:24:58 AM »
Maeve doesn't appear to have the symptoms of dementia, and if she had, she would have been dead long since, since that is the inevitable outcome of dementia.  Not compatible with immortality.  The disease doesn't turn you into a psychotic, murdering nympho.  It steals your humanity and then kills you.  I suggest that Jim chose this as a shorthand because he wanted the sisters to be alive concurrently. Which means that Mab made Sarissa immortal.  It could also mean that Sarissa and Maeve were once part of triplets and that one died.

  No, it doesn't but it can make the victim paranoid and make them react violently to care givers and loved ones simply out of fear because they no longer know who they are..  Perhaps it is different in the Fae?  If this is so, then Maeve's condition would fit the disease..

Offline Bad Alias

  • Posty McPostington
  • ***
  • Posts: 2208
    • View Profile
Re: Overall series questions
« Reply #21 on: August 20, 2019, 03:42:51 PM »
I don't know Yuillegan, not doing your job when Mab is your boss sure does seem self destructive to me.

Offline g33k

  • Posty McPostington
  • ***
  • Posts: 2376
    • View Profile
Re: Overall series questions
« Reply #22 on: August 20, 2019, 06:37:55 PM »
It's worth mentioning here that "Dementia" isn't any particular disease, it's a descriptive suite of symptoms, with several known diseases &c that can cause it.
https://www.alz.org/alzheimers-dementia/what-is-dementia/types-of-dementia

I note that "a form of congenital dementia" (Sarissa's phrase) could -- without much regular-ol' faerie fact-stretching, let alone half-blooded free will & freedom-to-lie -- likely be stretched to cover Nemfection itself.

Maybe Sarissa was saying she was Nemfected, and Mab is holding it in check.
 

Offline kbrizzle

  • Conversationalist
  • **
  • Posts: 381
    • View Profile
Re: Overall series questions
« Reply #23 on: August 20, 2019, 08:47:06 PM »
My WAG about the deal between Mab & Sarissa is that in exchange for being a vessel for a Fae mantle (as an alternate to Maeve or the WK, should Mab need to rid herself of an Nfected traitor within her Court & need a ready ‘vessel’ handy), Sarissa has to spend 3 months a year at Arctis Tor.

Being a Changeling who has not yet chosen to be human or Fae, I’d imagine Sarissa would be fairly long-lived. Seeing as she chooses to spend most of her time on the mortal plane, she clearly doesn’t care too much for her Fae nature - we sorta see this with Meryl in SK. Being Fae or a Changeling would be congenital & given the darker impulses of the Winter Fae, I could see someone like Sarissa calling it dementia - it is abnormal from a civilized human PoV.

@g33k
I highly doubt Sarissa is Nfected, given that Mab was grooming her to become Winter Lady as a replacement to the Nfected Maeve... & Nfection wouldn’t be congenital, would it?

I do agree however that Sarissa purposely used extremely vague phrasing about her “disability”.

@Bad Alias
Maeve shirking her duties for ~150 years was probably because Mab kept allowing her to get away with it. Maeve didn’t realize that this was a sign of her love, instead likely viewing it as indifference or weakness on Mab’s part.
Mab should have realized that Maeve lacked the temperament to be a good Winter Lady in the long-term. Like Lily, Maeve probably didn’t understand the full extent of what she was getting into. I mean she couldn’t even have a boyfriend till Mab dies/ abdicates (given that Mab can have sex, but this seems unlikely in the near future) - that & dealing with creatures (of your own Court!) constantly trying to outsmart/ take advantage of you for centuries on end would drive anyone crazy.

@morriswalters
I think the issue is that you can’t retain much humanity & be a Winter royal. Mab does (loves Maeve), & it very nearly kills her/ destroys Winter; likewise Titania is in mourning & it has caused Summer to act erratically since SK. The Ladies are even more human since they are younger - it is the manipulation of the desires of their human nature that kills Aurora, Maeve & Lily in the end.

@Yuillegan
I wonder what happens to the non-Fae denizens of the NeverNever when they are killed in the mortal world - demonic entities etc for example.
« Last Edit: August 20, 2019, 08:48:48 PM by kbrizzle »

Offline g33k

  • Posty McPostington
  • ***
  • Posts: 2376
    • View Profile
Re: Overall series questions
« Reply #24 on: August 20, 2019, 11:27:06 PM »
...
@g33k
I highly doubt Sarissa is Nfected, given that Mab was grooming her to become Winter Lady as a replacement to the Nfected Maeve... & Nfection wouldn’t be congenital, would it? 

Remember that Mab cured Lea (for some value of "cure"), so she wouldn't necessarily find Nemfection to preclude grooming that person as a replacement...

And if the instance of Nemfection was crafted as "likes Mab's bloodline & likes Winter powers" then I could see how Sarissa might regard her condition as "congenital..."

Offline morriswalters

  • Posty McPostington
  • ***
  • Posts: 2547
    • View Profile
Re: Overall series questions
« Reply #25 on: August 21, 2019, 12:19:53 AM »
Not everything is a nemfection.  There is an example of that kind of deal in the books already.  Harry's broken back.  It's exactly the way that Mab might control an asset.  Like Harry.  Or Sarissa.  And Maeve called Sarissa a spare.

Offline kbrizzle

  • Conversationalist
  • **
  • Posts: 381
    • View Profile
Re: Overall series questions
« Reply #26 on: August 21, 2019, 04:38:17 AM »
7. Ah yes. Mother Winter. Why indeed would such a being need a walking stick? Or indeed a body? She is more equivalent to a star or blizzard on a thousand worlds. My guess? The "walking stick" is like the mantles, a part of her. Perhaps the physical representation of her ability to interact. Mother Summer always seems more mobile, and has no walking stick to speak of. When it comes to the Nevernever, and especially the Powers, I believe that we are entering the realms of metaphor as much a physical reality. Abstract concepts such as thoughts and time can have physical representations (which is really what the Mothers are, after all). Remember the Outer Gates - Harry's mind can only process so much so he boils them down into something as obvious and simplistic as those massive gates. He cannot experience reality in more than 3 or 4 dimensions. Same with when he was in Ghost Story, he can only experience a very limited view of reality. The Nevernever is very similar to the Immaterium of Warhammer 40K, where thoughts become reality. Jim used to play both types of Warhammer I believe, so I am not totally surprised.

So to get back to your question - why does she feel pain, or appear old etc? Because that is the best representation of WHAT she is, and how Mortal minds have shaped her. Consider the fact that Harry hurt her at all, and how both angry and insulted she was. Consider Uriel's reaction when Harry dropped the -el from his name. Mortal Free Will seems to have unlimited power in some deep ways...and Immortals hate it. Mortals can constantly redefine their reality, and of course themselves (to speak of one is to speak of the other really). Immortals have only the illusion of this. I suspect this is the crux of Lucifer's argument with God: Mortal's have unlimited power in a sense, and can change all of reality. Any mortal. All of them together...leads to a massive problem. Immortals were only given limited will (enough to act somewhat on their own - Jim has said Angel's at least had enough will to Fall) but cannot really change their own destinies. Why? No idea. Jim may have an answer for his series - but people have been trying to answer question like that forever. So this is why she feels pain from moving - she has perhaps lost the part of her power that allows her to interact more freely. Anyone would be upset by that - imagine if you lost your legs and then some fool tries to drag you out to him!

Sorry about the ridiculously long post, but you ask big questions!
This is an interesting notion - that the walking stick is an essential part of MW’s ability to interact with the mortal world. But if this were the case, why would she let the White Council have it for nearly a millennium? I can see her loaning it out to the WC for short periods like the Ramp war etc., but for ~1000 years when it severely impacts her mobility seems strange.

One other way of looking at this could be that Bob is wrong - the Fae Queens are not true immortals - their mantles are, but the holders of the mantles are not (which is why Lily, Aurora, Maeve, Mab’s predecessor, Mother Summer’s predecessor etc. have died). The very setup of the Fae courts mirrors human ages - the maiden, the mother & the crone - this implies change. The maiden becomes the mother & eventually the crone - this is a one-way linear progression, no matter how slow. Since the Fae Courts are set up as such, we can infer that these positions are not meant to be permanent but rather a series of ‘promotions’ should the holder be able to survive for long enough.

Other immortals like angels have no such progression built into their natures - their natures are to be static with little freedom of choice. Fae on the other hand are capable of relatively more ‘free will’. So perhaps the Fae Queens are extremely long lived but not actually immortal in the sense of angels etc. By this logic, Mother Winter is actually ancient & feels the ravages of time from her millennia long existence (kinda like how the Red King seemed to be devolving into a bloodthirsty dementia).

@g33k
I believe the definition of congenital is “present from birth”. Unless you are implying that Mab has been Nfected for a couple of hundred years now, that Nfection is capable of being passed on in this manner & that Maeve too has been Nfected since birth....
« Last Edit: August 21, 2019, 04:41:30 AM by kbrizzle »

Offline g33k

  • Posty McPostington
  • ***
  • Posts: 2376
    • View Profile
Re: Overall series questions
« Reply #27 on: August 21, 2019, 05:24:19 AM »
I don't actually think Sarissa is (or was) Nemfected; just that she could be.  There could be a sort of Nemfection that targets specific opportunities, that "fits" with certain hosts.  If the specific suite of vulnerabilies matches Sarissa, she might call that "congenital".

I don't really think that's the issue... but her evasive manner makes me pretty sure it isn't anything we'd normally describe as "a congenital form of dementia," so I'm looking for other faerie-twisty things those words might describe...

Offline g33k

  • Posty McPostington
  • ***
  • Posts: 2376
    • View Profile
Re: Overall series questions
« Reply #28 on: August 21, 2019, 05:37:53 AM »
Not everything is a nemfection.  There is an example of that kind of deal in the books already.  Harry's broken back.  It's exactly the way that Mab might control an asset.  Like Harry.  Or Sarissa.  And Maeve called Sarissa a spare.
I find your arguments quite persuasive.  I did so before you made them, too!   ;)  I think "Nemfection" is a highly implausible & unsatisfactory answer.

I just... don't find much that IS plausible & satisfactory to explain Sarissa's choice of words.

I'm grasping at straws.

Offline Yuillegan

  • White Council
  • Posty McPostington
  • *****
  • Posts: 1384
  • Forum Moderator
    • View Profile
Re: Overall series questions
« Reply #29 on: August 21, 2019, 06:44:56 AM »
G33k: I think we can just accept that Sarissa owes Mab for protection and keeping her brain (relatively) sane and working. She went to Mab herself remember - that is pretty rare right there. Sarissa clearly learnt who her mother was, and what she was (to a point). She asked for the help, and accepted the deal. Whether it was a fair deal is qualitative, not quantitative.

Kbrizzle: Why would Mother Winter let the White Council have it for a millennium? No idea. But who says she gets a choice? Maybe that was the deal? Or perhaps 1000 years to her isn't that long - compared to the many millennia she has been alive. We know she wants it back now - perhaps the deal is up and Eb hasn't returned it. Would be just Harry's luck to get the Blackstaff only to have to give it back.

Your notion that the Fae Mantles are the immortal pieces is essentially correct - that was the revelation of Cold Days. Whether the mantle itself can be destroyed truly is another question. Remember, it was implied Maeve could be "killed" outside of Halloween but would reform eventually. Only during a conjunction does the stasis of immortality become malleable. Only then could Maeve be killed, and the Mantle transferred.

But I do find the idea that the Mantles are essentially a structure of immortality that creates more choice for the immortal, essentially letting them have the best of both world, really intriguing. It makes a lot of sense actually, when the agents who are implied to have created/elevated the Fae into what they are currently were the Old Gods (such as the Greco-Roman and Norse etc). They might have resented the lack of Free Will their Power and Immortality gave them, and found a clever work-around.

And yes, that may also explain Mother Winter's poor health and ailments. Although at her power level surely she would be insulated from Mortal discomforts...perhaps that is the price of it. I can't wait to find out!

As for non-Fae beings, such as demons. Well we know that if they are pure spirit energy and form a physical body (like a ghost, or the toad demon) they dissolve in ectoplasm on death which eventually breaks down further. Normally the "respawn" in the Nevernever, but occasionally are killed outright (such as by the Swords of the Cross). If they are combo beings, like the Naagloshii or the River Folk, I suspect not. Although the River Folk are essentially somewhere between humanity and Fae. Angels and Fallen (not Denarians)? Probably too much spirit...and not sure they can die at all. Even from the Swords. But we will have to wait and see on that front. Bob gives the impression nothing really changes between immortals unless a conjunction happens (such as Chicago above Chicago in Summer Knight...although Jim has retconned a few things since then). As for monsters, demons, other Things...probably a case by case basis. Chimera and Cyclops? Probably ectoplasm. Sue with resurrected Flesh? Ectoplasm. Although if you summoned Sue from 65 million years ago with a Time Travel way/wormhole...probably full on corpse, same as us. Fomor should be interesting - we know they are related to the Fae and the Jotuns, and we know the Turtlenecks transhuman body parts turn to ectoplasm but their bodies stay as corpses, so it will probably be a case by case thing too.

I am curious to know what would happen if Spider-Man or a Jedi died in Dresdenverse, they are a part of the greater cosmology in a way yet are mortal. We will probably never get an in-text answer for copyright reasons, but it is fun to guess.
Hi, I'm a moderator. We're here to help. Please remain calm. Don't go outdoors.