Quick question about pre-Storm Front

[SerScot]

Ramerize Soul Gazed Molly as well, I believe.

[Mira]

Ramerize Soul Gazed Molly as well, I believe.

He examined the victims of Molly's mind probes and testified to the damage done to them, Harry, as warden, was asked if he had soul gazed Molly and did he confirm her guilt or innocence?  Which he did, she was guilty, then he began to argue mitigating things in her favor... The Merlin was ready to give her the chop right then and there and he had all the proxies except for Rashid who was present... Rashid stalled until the rest of the Senior Council showed up/

[kbrizzle]

@morriswalters
I’d assume the SC does, given that Harry has mentioned how well-informed they generally are (although he criticizes the conclusions they reach with the info & mentions that their info is not of ‘street level’).
Given that Nemesis has likely been around for a while, I would be very surprised if most, if not all of the SC were at least aware of it (& secretive about it). We know they are aware of Outsiders.

@Mira
IIRC, Harry mentions looking for Elaine everywhere when he first runs into her in SK. I believe it is only after that endeavor fails that he reaches the conclusion she’s dead. Although admittedly he could’ve just thought that she ran away while he was dueling Justin.
Another suspicious thing about the duel is that Justin never used a death curse - no doubt this gives some credence to Lafortier’s claim that Harry might’ve burned Justin in his sleep.

[g33k]

...
Given that Nemesis has likely been around for a while, I would be very surprised if most, if not all of the SC were at least aware of it (& secretive about it). We know they are aware of Outsiders...

I would note that the WC seems to be VERY averse to admitting (even to themselves) the possibility of active conspiracies and covert actions, other than from known agencies (i.e. pre-Changes, they'd readily admit the Ramps had covert actions against them).

I suspect that individual wizards have noticed Nemfection, but that "the Council" does not admit there is any pattern, or overarching agency.  The Senior Council does not discuss it as a body, the Merlin denies it to all & permits no discussion, etc.

I expect the same policy as with talk of a "Black Council," basically.

...
IIRC, Harry mentions looking for Elaine everywhere when he first runs into her in SK. I believe it is only after that endeavor fails that he reaches the conclusion she’s dead...

You're right; I hadn't recalled that scene.  That DOES speak to Harry not actually seeing anything happen to Elaine.  It's a terrible fire, he fears the worst, but didn't (for example) see a flaming building collapse that he "knew" she was inside.  Only after extensive magical searching does he admit to himself that she's dead.

I mean... yes, Harry's psyche often visits Egypt to go swimming, so it's possible that (based on what he saw) any reasonable person would have concluded she was dead (but Harry, shockingly, wasn't being reasonable).

But Occam's razor says Harry didn't really know, not from seeing it; he feared the worst, and confirmed his fears from extensive magical search.

[Mira]

IIRC, Harry mentions looking for Elaine everywhere when he first runs into her in SK. I believe it is only after that endeavor fails that he reaches the conclusion she’s dead. Although admittedly he could’ve just thought that she ran away while he was dueling Justin.
Another suspicious thing about the duel is that Justin never used a death curse - no doubt this gives some credence to Lafortier’s claim that Harry might’ve burned Justin in his sleep.

No, Harry's first reaction upon finding her in his place was shock, "You're alive."  Then he repeats it and then asks her in a kind of angry tone, why she never contacted him?  You don't react that way unless you actually thought someone was dead...  Also in the earlier books he feels great guilt about  her because he truly believes she perished in the fire he created when he killed Justin..

Actually we don't know whether or not Justin threw a death curse...  He may have and for some reason didn't direct it towards Harry...  We learned in Ghost Story or at least from speculation on Harry's part based on what Lea helped him to remember there was a lot of double crossing going around, Justin may have aimed it in that direction.. Or he wasn't prepared to throw one because he didn't think Harry would succeed in beating him in a duel... Or the fire bomb came so fast and so hot he never got a chance...  Also how would LaFortier know one way or another that Justin had thrown his curse?

But Occam's razor says Harry didn't really know, not from seeing it; he feared the worst, and confirmed his fears from extensive magical search.

Exactly...

[g33k]

... No, Harry's first reaction upon finding her in his place was shock, "You're alive."  Then he repeats it and then asks her in a kind of angry tone, why she never contacted him?  You don't react that way unless you actually thought someone was dead...

Summer Knight, Ch.Eight (about halfway through (pg.123 in my paperback copy)) --

"I... I looked for you," I said quietly.  "In fire and water.
 I had spirits combing the Earth for any trace of you.  Hoping that you'd survived."

"But where have you been?" I asked.  "Elaine, I looked for you for years.  Years."

Elaine had left before the fight concluded.

Harry hadn't seen anything to indicate either way; but when he couldn't find her, he assumed she was dead.  It's a reasonable assumption:  he's the stronger wizard and (while she's better on the finesse-and-style front) Harry is particularly adept with "finding" things/people/etc (but not vs. one of the Summer Queens, of course!!!  But he had no indication she might have such patronage/protection...) .

But he certainly didn't do all that while awaiting trial!
 

[Gman]

I would guess that the WC did not know of Justin being a Warlock because he was a Warden and WC Wizard in good standing. When Harry killed Justin. The WC then investigated Justin (and Harry's claims) and found evidence that he was a Warlock. Sort of like a girl escapes from a serial killer's basement and tells the police. That serial killer was a citizen in good standing and no one looked at some of the minor suspicious things he did, even the neighbors. When the truth comes out then the authorities investigate and find the evidence.

[Mira]

Harry hadn't seen anything to indicate either way; but when he couldn't find her, he assumed she was dead.  It's a reasonable assumption:  he's the stronger wizard and (while she's better on the finesse-and-style front) Harry is particularly adept with "finding" things/people/etc (but not vs. one of the Summer Queens, of course!!!  But he had no indication she might have such patronage/protection...) .

   People never fully give up hope that a lost loved one can be found alive when there is no body to confirm that they are not... But Harry's first reaction says he felt she was dead, he really had no reason to think otherwise.

I would guess that the WC did not know of Justin being a Warlock because he was a Warden and WC Wizard in good standing. When Harry killed Justin. The WC then investigated Justin (and Harry's claims) and found evidence that he was a Warlock. Sort of like a girl escapes from a serial killer's basement and tells the police. That serial killer was a citizen in good standing and no one looked at some of the minor suspicious things he did, even the neighbors. When the truth comes out then the authorities investigate and find the evidence.

Yet apparently the evidence wasn't enough to totally convince many on the Council that Harry wasn't a murderer...  Otherwise LaFortier wouldn't have been able to use it the way he did as an excuse to take away Harry's wizard status as part of a elaborate political maneuver to placate the Red Court to turn Harry over to them..

[Avernite]

I would guess that the WC did not know of Justin being a Warlock because he was a Warden and WC Wizard in good standing. When Harry killed Justin. The WC then investigated Justin (and Harry's claims) and found evidence that he was a Warlock. Sort of like a girl escapes from a serial killer's basement and tells the police. That serial killer was a citizen in good standing and no one looked at some of the minor suspicious things he did, even the neighbors. When the truth comes out then the authorities investigate and find the evidence.

But Justin wasn't in good standing. He was a groupie of Maggie LeFay and now he had an unknown apprentice on the possible chopping block for black magic.
In fact, that seems much more with what Mira argues - the above is definitely enough to consider Justin suspicious and so if someone calls him a black magician you have to take it seriously - but without proof, you won't say it's that way for sure, and it can later be doubted by LaFortier.

[kbrizzle]

@g33k
Thanks for pulling up that quote, it was exactly what I was referencing.

@Mira
I am not convinced that Harry burned Justin’s house to the ground - remember that even when he cuts loose at Bianca’s ball in GP, he burns a dozen people but doesn’t burn down the entire building (although he does damage it severely).
If even the structure of the house is standing & some magical artifacts are not destroyed (like Bob), I believe members of the SC can likely sense black magic residue.

@Avernite
Exactly, and since Justin is dead he is unable to defend himself from any of Harry’s accusations. Circumstantially even Justin was seen as ok person by the WC, the facts gleaned from investigating Harry’s story would cast Justin in a very poor light.

[Mira]

I am not convinced that Harry burned Justin’s house to the ground - remember that even when he cuts loose at Bianca’s ball in GP, he burns a dozen people but doesn’t burn down the entire building (although he does damage it severely).
If even the structure of the house is standing & some magical artifacts are not destroyed (like Bob), I believe members of the SC can likely sense black magic residue.

A large building or residence might not burn like a smaller wooden house for one thing.  Another  factor is Harry has better control as of Grave Peril,  sixteen year old Harry had no control, he had "killed" an Outsider previously, but that was with the help of gasoline running from a dropped hose..  He has no idea as to how strong he is, he cut lose because he thought rightfully that Justin was either going to kill him or enthrall him,  KABOOM!  End of story, and if it was an older small wooden house, it would burn fast and hot, clear to the ground... 

[Kindler]

All this talk about burning buildings makes me want to watch Backdraft again. That was a good movie.