Quick question about pre-Storm Front

[SerScot]

How much time passed between Dumourne’s death at Harry’s hand and Harry’s capture by wardens?  I wonder because he had to have had enough time to find a secure hiding spot for Bob... In fact I’d love to know how Harry was caught in the first place.

[Mira]

How much time passed between Dumourne’s death at Harry’s hand and Harry’s capture by wardens?  I wonder because he had to have had enough time to find a secure hiding spot for Bob... In fact I’d love to know how Harry was caught in the first place.

I seem to remember that he merely buried Bob's skull in the ashes of the house.   I also seem to remember that the wardens did show up fairly quickly, and since Harry really didn't anything about
what a warden was at that time, I doubt he tried to or could elude them.  If I remember correctly Luccio knew that Kemmler had Bob, but I don't think the wardens were aware that Justin had gotten a hold of him after Kemmler died..  If that is how it went down, it wouldn't have been hard to have hidden the skull, because the wardens weren't looking for it..  However it seems to have remained hidden for the three years Harry lived with Eb, so apparently no one tried to clear away the rubble to rebuild on the site or anything.

[g33k]

...  If I remember correctly Luccio knew that Kemmler had Bob, but I don't think the wardens were aware that Justin had gotten a hold of him after Kemmler died...

Luccio / the wardens did know about Bob; they regarded him as a VERY dangerous artifact.  Luccio states that "the wardens" destroyed Bob, and Harry didn't correct her.

IIRC, Justin was a warden at the time.  I presume he was the one who did the "destroying."

[KurtinStGeorge]

We got the, How Harry met HWWB, flashback in Ghost Story.  We've only got tiny fragments of the final confrontation between Harry and Justin and Harry's trial, and next to nothing about his capture by the wardens, or maybe it was just Morgan.  Damn, I really want to see a flashback that covers these events. 

Now that I think about it, Harry's head was under a bag during his trial,  I think we would need another character; most likely Ebenezer or Luccio, to fully describe who said what and describe everyone's attitude and the looks on everyone's face as things played out.  However, the trial itself (probably) isn't as important as the earlier events. 

I would like to know more about the interrogation that occurred before Harry's trial.  It might tell us a lot about what Justin's reputation with the Council was when Harry killed him.  We don't know if Justin was still a member in good standing with the White Council or if they knew he had turned to the dark side.     

[SerScot]

We got the, How Harry met HWWB, flashback in Ghost Story.  We've only got tiny fragments of the final confrontation between Harry and Justin and Harry's trial, and next to nothing about his capture by the wardens, or maybe it was just Morgan.  Damn, I really want to see a flashback that covers these events. 

Now that I think about it, Harry's head was under a bag during his trial,  I think we would need another character; most likely Ebenezer or Luccio, to fully describe who said what and describe everyone's attitude and the looks on everyone's face as things played out.  However, the trial itself (probably) isn't as important as the earlier events. 

I would like to know more about the interrogation that occurred before Harry's trial.  It might tell us a lot about what Justin's reputation with the Council was when Harry killed him.  We don't know if Justin was still a member in good standing with the White Council or if they knew he had turned to the dark side.   

That’s my question too.  For Harry to end up under the Doom of Damocles rather than executed his killing of Justin would have to be seen as justified and that he could be redeemed from his use of black magic. 

So, either Justin was already suspected or someone saw some incredibly damning evidence when they caught Harry.  Either way if Justin was the guy given the responsibility for destroying Bob you’d think after Harry’s trial people would be asking questions about his career as a warden.

[kbrizzle]

@KurtinStGeorge & SerScot
At the end of PG when Harry is talking to Eb, I think it is revealed that the only reason the Council didn’t kill Harry was because Eb personally vouched for him, similar to how Harry did for Molly. This is why Harry, like Molly was placed under the Doom, although I’m unsure if Eb was also placed under it, like Harry is for vouching for Molly.

[Mira]

Luccio / the wardens did know about Bob; they regarded him as a VERY dangerous artifact.  Luccio states that "the wardens" destroyed Bob, and Harry didn't correct her.

IIRC, Justin was a warden at the time.  I presume he was the one who did the "destroying."

They knew that Kemmler had him, and she thought they destroyed him when they killed Kemmler.. Justin was still a warden at that time and was in on the raid, that is when he stole Bob the assumption was that he was destroyed.

So, either Justin was already suspected or someone saw some incredibly damning evidence when they caught Harry.  Either way if Justin was the guy given the responsibility for destroying Bob you’d think after Harry’s trial people would be asking questions about his career as a warden.

Why?  At that point Justin was seen merely as a respected, powerful, retired warden.  Why would they question anything about him?  The trial was about Harry and whether or not he should keep his head...  The house burned so how much evidence would there have been?  It isn't like the Book of Kemmler was displayed prominently on Justin's nightstand.. 

[SerScot]

kbrizzle,

@KurtinStGeorge & SerScot
At the end of PG when Harry is talking to Eb, I think it is revealed that the only reason the Council didn’t kill Harry was because Eb personally vouched for him, similar to how Harry did for Molly. This is why Harry, like Molly was placed under the Doom, although I’m unsure if Eb was also placed under it, like Harry is for vouching for Molly.

Yes, that was part of it.  However, as we learned in Proven Guilty that by itself isn’t enough.  The Senior Council needs to agree rehab is possible. That suggests to me that they had to find that Justin had gone bad.

Mira,

Because if a Warlock had killed a respected Warden I simply don’t think Eb saying “he’s a good kid don’t kill him” would have carried the day.  They needed to agree as to why Harry could kill Dumorne and that Harry’s use of black magic in that context was justified as self defense.

[Mira]

Because if a Warlock had killed a respected Warden I simply don’t think Eb saying “he’s a good kid don’t kill him” would have carried the day.  They needed to agree as to why Harry could kill Dumorne and that Harry’s use of black magic in that context was justified as self defense.

I doubt that it did, however going by what happened to the Korean kid and almost to Molly I doubt that Harry was questioned too closely..  A lot hinges on the soul gaze, and Eb said that what he saw was a kid powerful as hell and angry as hell, but not unredeemable...  I think Harry was spared because his talent was considerable and the fact that Eb, who was after all the Blackstaff was willing to be responsible for him under the Doom.. Remember Eb was also under orders to chop Harry the second Harry even hinted at going out of line... We know Eb did cut Harry some slack, he was his grand kid after all..  I also doubt that if the Senior Council knew it at the time they would have allowed Eb to take him in..

[kbrizzle]

Even though the WC likely had a good opinion of DuMorne - given that he was Simon’s apprentice (who was on the SC) & a presumably honorable discharge from the wardens after decades of service - Harry’s story had to cast some doubts on that.

The facts as the WC would see them when they capture(?) Harry after Justin’s death were:

• Harry was a teenager who had been trained in the WC/ classical style of wizardry - this had to have been by someone who was on the WC themselves
• Upon a looking at teenage Harry through the Sight, the kid had the taint of an Outsider (HWWB) as well as some, but not a lot of black magic taint - a teenage kid doesn’t have the knowledge or skill to summon an Outsider so someone else likely set one upon him. Teen Harry also hadn’t used black magic consistently enough at this point for him to look like the Korean kid or even Molly
• Harry claimed to be the son of Margaret LeFay who walked a blurry line but was a WC member. She was also on friendly terms with Justin DuMorne. The SC might even know that she was trying to birth a Starborn.
• Harry likely knew enough details about Justin’s mannerisms & magic style to convince those who knew the latter that Harry had to know Justin somewhat well
• If Justin indeed ‘helped’ Harry, why didn’t he tell Harry about the Laws or the WC?
• The Blackstaff soulgazed him & said that the kid was a fundamentally decent person who had the potential for massive power. He likely told the SC that Harry had potential to be a Starborn, explaining the Outsider taint & Martha Liberty’s mysterious comment about what Harry “is supposed to become” at the beginning of SK.

I think these facts are enough for many members of the WC & SC to at least suspect that Justin wasn’t on the up & up. Combined with the fact that the Blackstaff himself is willing to take on the boy as an apprentice & carry out the Doom if Harry broke probation, I think the WC was willing to see where things go.

Also remember that things were relatively peaceful in the mortal world when this happens - the WC is seemingly in control of things so they could afford to be magnanimous. At the time of PG they are greatly diminished & in a war of attrition, fighting for their survival. This makes them far more ruthless when dealing with ‘distractions’.

[g33k]

That’s my question too.  For Harry to end up under the Doom of Damocles rather than executed his killing of Justin would have to be seen as justified and that he could be redeemed from his use of black magic. 

So, either Justin was already suspected or someone saw some incredibly damning evidence when they caught Harry.  Either way if Justin was the guy given the responsibility for destroying Bob you’d think after Harry’s trial people would be asking questions about his career as a warden.

I think the Wardens didn't know Justin had turned.  A Warden-gone-Warlock is a SERIOUS threat... knows too many secrets, too much Council & Warden security processes, etc.  They would have HAD to put him near the very top of their "most wanted" list.

And then for him to be as active as he was?  Monitoring young Dresden (and Mallory) for magical gifts, adopting them from their agencies, training TWO apprentices while they attend school, etc...  I see this as a huge security risk for a known & hunted Warlock!

As an ex-Warden & WC wizard in good standing, nobody's looking for him, monitoring his activities.  He could EASILY have done all that without anyone particularly noticing (or caring).

===

Then Harry kills him.

If Justin was a known Warlock, the "Self Defense" plea is entirely credible, even likely.  A known Warden-gone-Warlock would probably already have been under a death-penalty order, with a 'kill on sight, too dangerous to attempt to capture" clause.

I don't see Harry's trial being such a close call, had DuMorne been a known Warlock; more a matter of "well, YEAH... of COURSE the kid had to kill him!  And lucky to survive!  Soulgaze to verify, but SelfDefense is the only account that makes any sense."

OTOH, there must have been SOME hard evidence that Justin HAD turned.  If all to the known facts pointed to Justin being 100% clean, then Harry's allegation of "Self Defense" wouldn't have been believed at all, because nobody would have believed that Justin Lilywhite had tried to kill Harry!

So, not a known Warlock, but still credible as attacker, demon-summoner, mind-controller...?

My guess is that enough of Justin's lab survived that the Wardens saw plenty of evidence that he had gone Warlock... and had been for some time.  Plus the signs of the recent psychic attack on Harry -- Justin's attempted Enthrallment -- would have been clear, further proving that Justin had both ATTACKED him, and had used Black Magic in doing it.
 

[Mira]

I think the Wardens didn't know Justin had turned.  A Warden-gone-Warlock is a SERIOUS threat... knows too many secrets, too much Council & Warden security processes, etc.  They would have HAD to put him near the very top of their "most wanted" list.

Agreed,  don't think such things enters their minds very often, one reason why Peabody was able to
pull off what he did.  Though yeah, it was the ink, but too many were too willing to blind themselves that there could be an inside threat... And even when it was found out something wasn't quite right, Morgan was deemed to be the sacrificial lamb rather than admit what really happened.

And then for him to be as active as he was?  Monitoring young Dresden (and Mallory) for magical gifts, adopting them from their agencies, training TWO apprentices while they attend school, etc...  I see this as a huge security risk for a known & hunted Warlock!

As an ex-Warden & WC wizard in good standing, nobody's looking for him, monitoring his activities.  He could EASILY have done all that without anyone particularly noticing (or caring).

Exactly,  and Justin made sure they didn't know about his activities, he also kept all knowledge of the White Council from both Harry and Elaine..  The Council I am willing to bet had no clue at all that he had adopted two very talented kids..

Then Harry kills him.

If Justin was a known Warlock, the "Self Defense" plea is entirely credible, even likely.  A known Warden-gone-Warlock would probably already have been under a death-penalty order, with a 'kill on sight, too dangerous to attempt to capture" clause.

Yes, but to this day there are still members of the Senior Council who do not fully accept that Justin had gone bad more over that Harry had managed to take him out.. Though enough bought it enough that Harry was made a full wizard on the spot, even though under age and under the Doom, thus placed with Eb.

I don't see Harry's trial being such a close call, had DuMorne been a known Warlock; more a matter of "well, YEAH... of COURSE the kid had to kill him!  And lucky to survive!  Soulgaze to verify, but SelfDefense is the only account that makes any sense."

Justin wasn't a known warlock, and the wisdom being that the only way one as young as Harry could take out a warden, warlock or not was to be a warlock himself.. Though I think that Harry admits to the use of some black magic to defend himself..  That was the "taint"  in my opinion that was seen on him in Death Masks.  That is why it was a close call.

My guess is that enough of Justin's lab survived that the Wardens saw plenty of evidence that he had gone Warlock... and had been for some time.  Plus the signs of the recent psychic attack on Harry -- Justin's attempted Enthrallment -- would have been clear, further proving that Justin had both ATTACKED him, and had used Black Magic in doing it.
 

Not so sure if that one is so clear, if similar ingredients are used in both black and white magic, without spell books or actual potions it might be hard to tell them apart...

[SerScot]

Mira,

If DuMorne isn’t declared a warlock I don’t see how Harry survives.  The WC takes black magic very seriously.  If DuMorne isn’t declared a warlock all we have is a young warlock who killed an active or former warden.  Does the White Council allow “oops my bad” as a defense when a warlock kills someone in earnest combat with magic?

[g33k]

... Not so sure if that one isn't so clear, if similar ingredients are used in both black and white magic, without spell books or actual potions it might be hard to tell them apart...

There is SOME overlap, sure.  Every senior wizard is gonna have a bit of graveyard moss for making Ghost Dust, for example.

But let's go back to Victor's scorpion... Harry felt is was an ugly bit of work, not 100% proof of black magic (until it animated, and tried to kill people), but way over to the less-pale side of the grey zone.

Similarly, he gets a "feel" from necromancy magic.  The "spiritual barbed wire" spell was discernable evil.

DuMorne's lab would have had a bunch of magical tools and trinkets, ingredients & accoutrements, that would be more likely to be black-magic than not.  No ONE item would be proof, but together they can form a "preponderance of the evidence" sufficient to convince many. 

Intent does count, but so does symbolism... And legitimate magic needs few to none of those darker symbols.  Other wardens, in particular, would see the signs of Black Magic.

[KurtinStGeorge]

kbrizzle,

Yes, that was part of it.  However, as we learned in Proven Guilty that by itself isn’t enough.  The Senior Council needs to agree rehab is possible. That suggests to me that they had to find that Justin had gone bad.

Mira,

Because if a Warlock had killed a respected Warden I simply don’t think Eb saying “he’s a good kid don’t kill him” would have carried the day.  They needed to agree as to why Harry could kill Dumorne and that Harry’s use of black magic in that context was justified as self defense.

I doubt that it did, however going by what happened to the Korean kid and almost to Molly I doubt that Harry was questioned too closely..  A lot hinges on the soul gaze, and Eb said that what he saw was a kid powerful as hell and angry as hell, but not unredeemable...

I think SerScot may be correct here.  Yes, the soulgaze may have helped Eb's opinion of Harry, but it may have also helped point to evidence that Justin had gone bad.  In one of the flashbacks in one of the early novels, Harry describes that he was about to be forced to drink blood from a human skull.  (I doubt that was Bob.)  I assume that would have been moments before Harry broke Elaine's binding.  An image of that experience or something else damning to Justin's reputation, seen in a soulgaze with Harry might have been enough to at least make the other person in the soulgaze believe that Harry was telling the truth and then look for evidence.  By the way, I wonder if Ebenezer was the only person to soulgaze Harry.  Now I have to go reread the series to see if Harry avoids looking into Morgan or the Merlin's eyes.

I think that whether or not the Wardens knew that Justin had gone bad they would have done a thorough search through the ashes of Justin's home.  We saw the amount of magical gear and books Harry kept in his flat.  Fire can sometimes spare odd items you would think wouldn't have had a chance to survive.  It would be dangerous to assume nothing could have survived a fire unless all you saw was a foundation and a chimney stack and even in that case you would take a look in the chimney.

Harry may have only had minutes before Morgan or other wardens showed up, but that doesn't mean he couldn't have moved, say fifty yards away to bury Bob.