Quick question about pre-Storm Front

[kbrizzle]

My point in the earlier post was that just by existing & proving a long-term relationship with Justin, Harry would’ve cast doubts on his character. Since Justin wasn’t there to ‘defend’ himself, it’s likely no one on the WC knew of his proclivities in the last 10-15 years (finding & raising 2 Starborn).

Additionally, we know what Harry saw at Victor’s lake house in StF, can you imagine the type of black magic residue that would’ve been left around Justin’s property?

[Mira]

My point in the earlier post was that just by existing & proving a long-term relationship with Justin, Harry would’ve cast doubts on his character. Since Justin wasn’t there to ‘defend’ himself, it’s likely no one on the WC knew of his proclivities in the last 10-15 years (finding & raising 2 Starborn).

Additionally, we know what Harry saw at Victor’s lake house in StF, can you imagine the type of black magic residue that would’ve been left around Justin’s property?

Except that fire also sterilizes, so much of it might have burned away..  Also the suspect of dark magic warlockhood was sixteen year old Harry,not Justin, they didn't know about Elaine... To this day the Council doesn't know about her.

I think SerScot my be correct here.  Yes, the soulgaze may have helped Eb's opinion of Harry, but it may have also helped point to evidence that Justin had gone bad.  In one of the flashbacks in one of the early novels, Harry describes that he was about to be forced to drink blood from a human skull.  (I doubt that was Bob.)  I assume that would have been moments before Harry broke Elaine's binding.  An image of that experience or something else damning to Justin's reputation, seen in a soulgaze with Harry might have been enough to at least make the other person in the soulgaze believe that Harry was telling the truth and then look for evidence.  By the way, I wonder if Ebenezer was the only person to soulgaze Harry.  Now I have to go reread the series to see if Harry avoids looking into Morgan or the Merlin's eyes.

There is evidence all through the series that Harry suffers from PTSD from what happened the night he killed Justin.   Most of what happened is blocked out of his memories, he begins to have some flashbacks in Summer Knight but it isn't until Ghost Story with Lea's help that he remembers it and it isn't exactly like his first flash backs in Summer Knight..  If Harry's young traumatized mind blocked out most of what happened, how much of it can be seen through a soul gaze?  A soul gaze reveals the essence of a person, it doesn't necessarily reveal memories.   When Harry soul gazed Marcone, he understood what kind of person he was, however though he knew he was hiding something, Harry couldn't see what Marcone was hiding.   I also doubt if Eb seriously thought Harry was a warlock that he'd have pleaded for him, grandson or not.. There is no evidence that Harry was interrogated in or before his trial,hell he had no idea what was going on, he had a hood over his
head and it was conducted in Latin, which at that time he did not speak nor understand... It wasn't until years later that he even knew it was Eb that defended him.  Also if evidence had come out about Justin, why did so many Council members continue to question Harry's credibility at various times in the series?  Morgan's obsession with Harry was he was convinced that Harry was a warlock..
If the truth had come out about Justin and what had happened, do you think Morgan would have still been so over the top obsessed?   

[apgrey]

Ref:  https://www.paranetonline.com/index.php/topic,53049.msg2318077.html#msg2318077

  The above reference is a post I made about Justin DuMorne and Harry.
  In it I speculated that Harry's memories of his fighting Justin are garbled and incomplete.  So, we don't really know what happened.  In fact, Harry does not know either.
  We also don't have a clear description of how long Harry was with the Leanansidhe before confronting Justin, or what happened between Justin's death and Harry being taken into custody by the White Council.

APG

[SerScot]

Mira,

Except that fire also sterilizes, so much of it might have burned away..  Also the suspect of dark magic warlockhood was sixteen year old Harry,not Justin, they didn't know about Elaine... To this day the Council doesn't know about her.

There is evidence all through the series that Harry suffers from PTSD from what happened the night he killed Justin.   Most of what happened is blocked out of his memories, he begins to have some flashbacks in Summer Knight but it isn't until Ghost Story with Lea's help that he remembers it and it isn't exactly like his first flash backs in Summer Knight..  If Harry's young traumatized mind blocked out most of what happened, how much of it can be seen through a soul gaze?  A soul gaze reveals the essence of a person, it doesn't necessarily reveal memories.   When Harry soul gazed Marcone, he understood what kind of person he was, however though he knew he was hiding something, Harry couldn't see what Marcone was hiding.   I also doubt if Eb seriously thought Harry was a warlock that he'd have pleaded for him, grandson or not.. There is no evidence that Harry was interrogated in or before his trial,hell he had no idea what was going on, he had a hood over his
head and it was conducted in Latin, which at that time he did not speak nor understand... It wasn't until years later that he even knew it was Eb that defended him.  Also if evidence had come out about Justin, why did so many Council members continue to question Harry's credibility at various times in the series?  Morgan's obsession with Harry was he was convinced that Harry was a warlock..
If the truth had come out about Justin and what had happened, do you think Morgan would have still been so over the top obsessed?

I think Morgan was obsessed with Harry because he was a warlock who used black magic.  He didn’t believe Harry could be reformed.  The “why” of Harry’s use of Black Magic didn’t enter into Morgan’s obsession.  Look at how Morgan treated Molly during Turn Coat as an example of how he feels about “reformed” Warlocks.  And Molly didn’t kill anyone and was attempting to “help” her friends.  And that was after Morgan appeared to show sympathy for Molly during the trial.

How much worse would his obsession be over someone who murdered with magic?

[Mira]

I think Morgan was obsessed with Harry because he was a warlock who used black magic.  He didn’t believe Harry could be reformed.  The “why” of Harry’s use of Black Magic didn’t enter into Morgan’s obsession.  Look at how Morgan treated Molly during Turn Coat as an example of how he feels about “reformed” Warlocks.  And Molly didn’t kill anyone and was attempting to “help” her friends.

Based on the assumption that it was murder and not self defense...

  The above reference is a post I made about Justin DuMorne and Harry.
  In it I speculated that Harry's memories of his fighting Justin are garbled and incomplete.  So, we don't really know what happened.  In fact, Harry does not know either.
  We also don't have a clear description of how long Harry was with the Leanansidhe before confronting Justin, or what happened between Justin's death and Harry being taken into custody by the White Council.

No, we don't and I doubt that much more could have been learned from young Harry at the time from either a soul gaze or even close questioning.  Apparently Harry never mentioned the existence of  Elaine to them,  you'd think the wardens would have found evidence of her in the house if they bothered to look... Unless of course the house completely burned to the ground, which may have happened.   

[SerScot]

Based on the assumption that it was murder and not self defense...

No, we don't and I doubt that much more could have been learned from young Harry at the time from either a soul gaze or even close questioning.  Apparently Harry never mentioned the existence of  Elaine to them,  you'd think the wardens would have found evidence of her in the house if they bothered to look... Unless of course the house completely burned to the ground, which may have happened.

Are you saying the White Council would pardon murderers with nothing more than a plea for clemency from Eb?  That they wouldn’t demand proof of reasonable self defense before pardoning Harry? 

I’m trying to nail down whether you think most on the WC still think highly of DuMorne or not?

At the end of the day I think we need this story told.

[Mira]

Are you saying the White Council would pardon murderers with nothing more than a plea for clemency from Eb?  That they wouldn’t demand proof of reasonable self defense before pardoning Harry? 

I’m trying to nail down whether you think most on the WC still think highly of DuMorne or not?

At the end of the day I think we need this story told.

  Harry wasn't pardoned, he was still put under the Doom... Enough bought that his act was self defense and extraordinary for someone so young against a former warden to grant him full wizard status though he did have to go and live with Eb because he was under age...  However the decision wasn't unanimous...  LaFortier for example, Summer Knight page 71 paperback..

I remind the Council that his appointment to his stole was a de facto decision based on circumstantial evidence.  He has never stood Trial, never been judged worthy by his peers."
   "Like hell I haven't," I answered him.  "I beat Justin DuMorne in a duel to the death.  Is that not Trial enough for you?"
    "Wizard DuMorne died, yes," LaFortier said.  "Whether he was defeated in an open duel or burned in his sleep is another matter entirely."

The first part was questioning Harry's status as a wizard based on how he was declared a wizard without the usual trial or test to prove himself one... However since there were no eye witnesses as to how Harry killed Justin,  LaFortier claims that the evidence for a duel was flimsy,  saying that Justin could have been
murdered by Harry in his sleep.. Granted there are political considerations as to why LaFortier was proposing that Harry's wizard status be taken away, but the very fact that he could bring up the question says that while they went along with naming him a wizard not all on the Council fully bought that he killed Justin in self defense rather than murder...   Also as of Summer Knight, Justin or at least his talent and power were still respected enough to call into question what really happened..  Peabody's ink may have also have played a role here influencing minds..

What I am trying to say is it was a very close call for young Harry, maybe a hung jury, and yeah, Eb as the Blackstaff standing up for him and willing to take him in under the Doom could have tipped the balance... Make no mistake though,  Eb was under orders to kill Harry if he stepped out of line even slightly..  And also for those like LaForier the question as to what really happened was not settled..

[Avernite]

Another important consideration is that in Blood Rites, Eb makes clear Dumorne was on the LeFay team of 'we're not breaking the rules, honest. But see how far we can go already!'

Going from that to the Council reluctantly accepting he went all the way into Blackness would be little stretch (after all the Council also had put Margaret LeFay on the arrest-and-try-on-sight list eventually).

[SerScot]

Mira,

  Harry wasn't pardoned, he was still put under the Doom... Enough bought that his act was self defense and extraordinary for someone so young against a former warden to grant him full wizard status though he did have to go and live with Eb because he was under age...  However the decision wasn't unanimous...  LaFortier for example, Summer Knight page 71 paperback..
 

The first part was questioning Harry's status as a wizard based on how he was declared a wizard without the usual trial or test to prove himself one... However since there were no eye witnesses as to how Harry killed Justin,  LaFortier claims that the evidence for a duel was flimsy,  saying that Justin could have been
murdered by Harry in his sleep.. Granted there are political considerations as to why LaFortier was proposing that Harry's wizard status be taken away, but the very fact that he could bring up the question says that while they went along with naming him a wizard not all on the Council fully bought that he killed Justin in self defense rather than murder...   Also as of Summer Knight, Justin or at least his talent and power were still respected enough to call into question what really happened..  Peabody's ink may have also have played a role here influencing minds..

What I am trying to say is it was a very close call for young Harry, maybe a hung jury, and yeah, Eb as the Blackstaff standing up for him and willing to take him in under the Doom could have tipped the balance... Make no mistake though,  Eb was under orders to kill Harry if he stepped out of line even slightly..  And also for those like LaForier the question as to what really happened was not settled..

The idea of Harry being paroled (not pardoned) for murder seems inconsistent to the way Molly’s trial was handled.

[SerScot]

The opening of Turn Coat says that Harry was given a suspended sentence because his “use of magic was just to survive a guy trying to kill him”.  Harry was an unknown quantity to the WC who had killed a Warden.  Wardens can kill when Warlocks use black magic. 

If DuMorne were seen as a “good guy” why would Harry not be a executed?

[Mira]

The idea of Harry being paroled (not pardoned) for murder seems inconsistent to the way Molly’s trial was handled.

I got the impression during the conversation between Harry and the Merlin when the Korean Kid got the chop that they had changed the process since Harry was tried...  In other words, no trial, soul gaze and that was it... Why?  Not enough full wizards to go around to train talented kids, they go astray quickly...  Even less full wizards willing to take responsibility under the Doom for a kid on the boarder line or not so far along he/she cannot be pulled back... The prejudice of the moment is better safe than sorry because a warlock can do so much damage,  so the chop...  Molly was treated differently because Harry demanded it,  she got a hearing, the hood was taken off her head, it was conducted in English... Harry was as good an advocate as the Merlin was... 

I think you are being too simplistic about the verdict on Harry, I don't think it was so black and white...   Yes, Harry used magic to kill Justin, but in self defense... Whether or not that is considered black magic or not clear, though Harry did admit in Death Masks that he had used it [against Justin? Not clear..] It may be that any magic used to kill another is considered dark, that is why wardens use a sword to execute..  So yes, killed Justin with magic, ergo warlock and should get the chop.. However, it was self defense against an experienced retired warden, ergo very powerful kid who may have been justified to do what he did and according to his soul gaze, not unredeemable..  Deciding factor?  The Blackstaff was willing to take responsibility for him...

If DuMorne were seen as a “good guy” why would Harry not be a executed?

I don't think that part was ever made clear one way or the other... The passage I quoted from Summer Knight implies that there are some who either thought or refused to believe that Justin had gone bad..  There are others who believe that he could have..  It is all twisted up with politics and some refusing that a former warden could have gone bad, verses those who thought Justin was a son of a bitch as Eb called him..

[SerScot]

Mira,

I got the impression during the conversation between Harry and the Merlin when the Korean Kid got the chop that they had changed the process since Harry was tried...  In other words, no trial, soul gaze and that was it... Why?  Not enough full wizards to go around to train talented kids, they go astray quickly...  Even less full wizards willing to take responsibility under the Doom for a kid on the boarder line or not so far along he/she cannot be pulled back... The prejudice of the moment is better safe than sorry because a warlock can do so much damage,  so the chop...  Molly was treated differently because Harry demanded it,  she got a hearing, the hood was taken off her head, it was conducted in English... Harry was as good an advocate as the Merlin was... 

I think you are being too simplistic about the verdict on Harry, I don't think it was so black and white...   Yes, Harry used magic to kill Justin, but in self defense... Whether or not that is considered black magic or not clear, though Harry did admit in Death Masks that he had used it [against Justin? Not clear..] It may be that any magic used to kill another is considered dark, that is why wardens use a sword to execute..  So yes, killed Justin with magic, ergo warlock and should get the chop.. However, it was self defense against an experienced retired warden, ergo very powerful kid who may have been justified to do what he did and according to his soul gaze, not unredeemable..  Deciding factor?  The Blackstaff was willing to take responsibility for him...

I don't think that part was ever made clear one way or the other... The passage I quoted from Summer Knight implies that there are some who either thought or refused to believe that Justin had gone bad..  There are others who believe that he could have..  It is all twisted up with politics and some refusing that a former warden could have gone bad, verses those who thought Justin was a son of a bitch as Eb called him..

If the soul gaze is the dertermining factor then why would the Merlin risk executing Molly after Ramirez soulgazed her and said she was redeemable?

[kbrizzle]

Speaking from the political angle, remember that Eb has friends on the Senior Council - Martha Liberty, Injun Joe, Simon Petrovich (who likely would’ve been on the SC at the time of Justin’s death) - that’s 3 votes for ‘pardoning’ Harry. I’ll bet Rashid was the 4th. We see this play out in SK.

4 out of 7 is enough to save Harry. As we see in PG, Molly is saved after enough members of the SC come through that the Merlin can’t vote their proxies.

Another point of note in this debate is the mark of HWWB on Harry - we know he gets this from his interaction with the Outsider prior to his confrontation with Justin. The SC would have to know what it is, & would know that a teenager is unlikely to have the knowledge to summon an Outsider. They would come to the seemingly logical conclusion that Justin was trying to Nfect Harry - Harry would’ve told them how Justin tried to enthrall him, which is what started their conflict.

Personally I’m not sure that it was Justin who sent HWWB, but the SC would likely see it that way.

@Mira
Do we know that Justin’s house burned down to the ground? I don’t recall reading that although it’s possible - IIRC there’s a throwaway line in one of the casefiles where Bob jokes about how Justin salvaged him from ashes of Kemmler’s place, similar to how Harry salvaged Bob from the ashes of Justin’s.

[morriswalters]

They would come to the seemingly logical conclusion that Justin was trying to Nfect Harry - Harry would’ve told them how Justin tried to enthrall him, which is what started their conflict.

Is there any indication that the Council knows about Nemfections?

[Mira]

If the soul gaze is the dertermining factor then why would the Merlin risk executing Molly after Ramerize said she was redeemable?

It was Harry, I believe that soul gazed her...  Why? Because his stance was that most were not redeemable and not worth the risk, no matter what.  See the debate he and Harry had right after the Korean Kid was killed.  Also Harry was winning the argument on political and ethical terms which really pissed him off.  Only Rashid stalling until the rest of the Council returned saved her head... That, and the fact that Harry stepped up to take responsibility for her, which in the Merlin's mind was killing two birds with one stone...

Do we know that Justin’s house burned down to the ground? I don’t recall reading that although it’s possible - IIRC there’s a throwaway line in one of the casefiles where Bob jokes about how Justin salvaged him from ashes of Kemmler’s place, similar to how Harry salvaged Bob from the ashes of Justin’s.

I think there are hints that it was, the biggest hint was at that time young Harry had little control over his spells..  A very scared Harry fighting for his life with adrenaline flowing freely would release a fire bomb that would take everything out... Remember this is one reason why he thought Elaine was dead, he thought she had perished in the fire he created leaving no trace of a body..