Denarian Short Story

[g33k]

I really doubt that any of the Denarians are N-fected, I think they play for the same team.

My understanding is that "Nemesis" is an Outsider-y thing.  Denarians are not.  I suspect they stand to lose as much as anyone else, from the Outsiders.

Except... we know that some (apparently very-competent) folk do seem to make deals with Outsiders.  Cowl, for example, seems to be in league with them, to one degree or another.

"Nemfection" may begin with something accidental; Lea seems to have thought the Athame was "safe," but it wasn't.  Aurora and Maeve were probably Nemfected (possibly all 3 came from the Athame?).

Who's to say that a Denarian (or his host!) cannot also succumb to Nemfection?

Nic may have been putting on an act in the Aquarium, when he "seemed" angry/surprised to learn that Hellfire had been part of the assault on A.Tor; but maybe he wasn't faking.

So, if he wasn't faking it... why was he angry?  Was it from "I do not want Mab for my enemy"?  Was it from "Why was my subordinate running their own op & hiding it from me?"

Was if from, "I'm pretty sure that was a Nemfected op, WTF was Hellfire doing anywhere near Nemfection?"  And if so, was it a matter of "why was that moron assisting an enemy?" or was it "I thought the Fallen were immune to (or very resistant to) Nemfection, but it looks like they got to one of us... or more??!?"

Or something else entirely???

[morriswalters]

I'm ready for the Peace Talks so I'm against new short stories at this point.

However Hitler and Stalin were in bed with each other, and it was just a matter  time until someone back stabbed someone.

[Mira]

My understanding is that "Nemesis" is an Outsider-y thing.  Denarians are not.  I suspect they stand to lose as much as anyone else, from the Outsiders.

I don't think we know yet... 

[SerScot]

Just a thought.  Why add something else to what is already a pretty full plate writing wise.  I'd settle for getting the stories I've already bought into.  The Dresden case files.

This story would help flesh out that world.

[Kindler]

One of several problems I'd have with a Nicodemus perspective is that it might soften his character too much. Learning too much about him may have us start rooting for him in future books. I mean, if you find out that Nicodemus has been doing all of these evil things in order to stop something much worse, some might start thinking, "Well, would it really be so bad if Harry lost?"

On the other hand, if it doesn't soften his character and he remains evil throughout and doesn't offer new insight into his motivations, then it'd probably be a bad story. I don't want to read about Nic setting boxes of puppies on fire, spraying Ebola-infected aerosols across the upper atmosphere above South Carolina, and having conversations at full volume in a crowded movie theater.

In other words: if the story wouldn't give us more insight into Nic's character, then it wouldn't be worth it. But if it does, it might have a negative impact on his future appearances in the novels.

[SerScot]

One of several problems I'd have with a Nicodemus perspective is that it might soften his character too much. Learning too much about him may have us start rooting for him in future books. I mean, if you find out that Nicodemus has been doing all of these evil things in order to stop something much worse, some might start thinking, "Well, would it really be so bad if Harry lost?"

On the other hand, if it doesn't soften his character and he remains evil throughout and doesn't offer new insight into his motivations, then it'd probably be a bad story. I don't want to read about Nic setting boxes of puppies on fire, spraying Ebola-infected aerosols across the upper atmosphere above South Carolina, and having conversations at full volume in a crowded movie theater.

In other words: if the story wouldn't give us more insight into Nic's character, then it wouldn't be worth it. But if it does, it might have a negative impact on his future appearances in the novels.

No one is the villain of their own story.  I prefer antagonists who are more than “Snidely Whiplash” waxing their mustache.  I think Jim could write this story in such a way that we don’t see all of Nic’a goals but we aee just how dangerous he really is and give us some insight into why he does what he does.

[Bad Alias]

I disagree. Even apart from Thomas (who I'll talk about below) I can see Murphy getting tricked/coerced into taking up a coin. It would fit her character arc: in Small Favor, she talks about her faith in the law and how it hurts everyone to break it, in a manner reminiscent of the way Michael talks-->by Ghost Story, she's in a much darker place and disregarding the law-->at the end of Cold Days she say's she'll follow Harry down whatever dark road he chooses to take-->in Skin Game, she makes it clear that she'll do just about anything for Harry and to keep Harry safe, and gets the Sword broken as a result, and is also permanently injured-->I can easily see a situation where Murphy, worn down and feeling helpless, ends up taking up a coin because she thinks it's the only way to save Harry.

That was my first thought as well. I don't think it likely, though.

   The plague hit on and off all through the Renaissance...  Improvement in the weather pattern also helped, meant more food, the people got stronger and healthier, which meant they could use their minds for a bit more than mere survival, that is what brought on the Renaissance..

I've seen the speculation that the Black Death basically ended serfdom in Western Europe leading to the West and the modern world as we know it. The basic theory is that all the death made peasant labor valuable enough that peasants were able to break their ties with the land. It seemed convincing, but I wouldn't pretend I studied it enough to be convinced or invested one way or another. Also, I don't have Professor Farnsworth's "what if machine" that isn't worth the solid gold it's made of.

No one is the villain of their own story.

I've never agreed with that. Some people have to know they're the bad guy, at least in a particular situation. Maybe Marcone? I'd have to study Even Hand more to even think about coming to a conclusion on that one.

[Kindler]

I've seen the speculation that the Black Death basically ended serfdom in Western Europe leading to the West and the modern world as we know it. The basic theory is that all the death made peasant labor valuable enough that peasants were able to break their ties with the land. It seemed convincing, but I wouldn't pretend I studied it enough to be convinced or invested one way or another. Also, I don't have Professor Farnsworth's "what if machine" that isn't worth the solid gold it's made of.

Bargaining power did indeed have a significant impact on the decline of serfdom as an institution. It was also helped along by the decline of the manorial system in favor of more centralized monarchies. Peasant revolts didn't help the system survive either.

You can pretty much see the rise and fall of most institutions and governments as gradual consolidations of power, then gradual redistribution of that power. Most cultures have gone through the centralization-->dissolution-->centralization cycle more than once. Even the US did it, though our "dissolution-->centralization" cycle is more understated and the decentralized aspect only lasted like eight years. What we've got now is an attempt at balancing those two.

[Bad Alias]

Let me be more specific. I haven't studied the issue enough to have a strong belief that the Black Death made the world a better place by shifting economic power which in turn shifted social power.

Which eight years? Articles of Confederation?

[g33k]

... I've never agreed with that. Some people have to know they're the bad guy, at least in a particular situation. Maybe Marcone? I'd have to study Even Hand more to even think about coming to a conclusion on that one.

I think Marcone sees himself as the "least bad bad-guy" for the job; in the sense that somebody will do it, or some anarchic warring factions.  So Marcone is the best option.
 

[morriswalters]

Even Hand is forced, not one of his better. Marcone is written just as he's ends up being named, Baron.  I suppose Jim took some courses in European history.  Whatever menace Jim intended for Marcone falls flat. Nicodemus is written like a sociopath.

[SerScot]

BA,

I've never agreed with that. Some people have to know they're the bad guy, at least in a particular situation. Maybe Marcone? I'd have to study Even Hand more to even think about coming to a conclusion on that one.

It’s not that they don’t recognize their actions as “bad” it is that those folks believe that their bad actions are justified by existing exigencies.  Therefore they think they are doing something “bad” to achieve a “greater good”.

[kbrizzle]

In general, I would like to see a short story about Nic, or have something about him in book 20 (which would make sense given that it’s part of the BAT & that’s kinda Nic’s goal - remember that Denarians gain power during such times) following the series convention.

There is still some stuff left in Nic’s arc that is of interest & relates to the overall story arc.
Nic seems to believe that he should be given sainthood for his actions & I like the theory that Deidre was sacrificed due to Nfection.
Additionally there would be some revelatory stuff in a short story from Nic’s POV in terms of Anduriel - who is actually in the front seat here?
What is the relationship between Lucifer & the Fallen exactly? Including Nic in the BAT could be a way to introduce higher ranking members of Hell to the series.

I’ve always liked the character & would like to see how he ends up. I don’t think we’ve seen the last of him as of SG.

@Mira
I believe Denarians can definitely be Nfected - what we learn about the way Nemesis operates is that it gives frustrated immortals a way to ‘bend’ their nature - it allows the Fae to lie for example. I would not be surprised if there was a Fallen that was tired of the limitations put on it & wanted a way to break loose.
The argument that the Denarians have as much to lose as everyone does not hold water as seen through the actions of the Nfected Aurora & Maeve.

[Snark Knight]

I mean, if you find out that Nicodemus has been doing all of these evil things in order to stop something much worse, some might start thinking, "Well, would it really be so bad if Harry lost?"

I'm sitting at about 90% sure they at least think they're doing it to stop something worse. Deirdre's claim about "We are saving the world" makes sense if they see Hell's victory as a lesser harm to the world than, most likely, the Outsiders'.

They can be fanatically certain that Hell winning is the only way to stop something worse and still be dead wrong about it, though - either because Hell's victory would actually be just as bad for the world, or because there's another way to stop Empty Night without destroying most of the mortal world in the process.

I wouldn't be at all surprised if disagreement about how scorched-Earth to go in fighting the Outsiders was the reason why a lot of the Fallen fell in the first place, for that matter. The WoJ about Lucifer trying to prove a point in a dispute with the Almighty could be whether humanity is really worth taking chances outcome of the Outsider war, rather than just cutting loose with everything they've got even though earth would be collateral damage. All the people like Nic and Tessa are anecdotal evidence that humanity isn't worth sparing.

[Snark Knight]

Nic seems to believe that he should be given sainthood for his actions & I like the theory that Deidre was sacrificed due to Nfection.

I can't point to any proof that Deirdre wasn't N-fected, but it seems unlikely. She was sacrificed because she was the only one Nic trusted to open the last gate after dying. That level of trust doesn't seem like something he'd invest in someone he believed to be mentally compromised by an outsider influence. (I still don't get why he didn't throw a couple of squires at that problem and play the odds that one of his pet fanatics would stay loyal before wasting Deirdre as a last resort if they didn't, though...)

At minimum, though, someone else has to have been behind the Hellfire attack on Arctis Tor. Deirdre is among the Denarians seen fighting on page most often, and she's never shown any affinity for any spells beyond shapeshifting. So even if she is infected, probably at least one of Tessa / Rosanna / Namshiel are also.