Author Topic: Denarian Short Story  (Read 29475 times)

Offline KurtinStGeorge

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Re: Denarian Short Story
« Reply #15 on: June 29, 2019, 09:02:36 AM »
Again, I really don't see the appeal of 30 pages of Nicodemus doing bad things to good people and getting away with it.

Plus? A story's mainly interesting if it challenges its protagonist in some way. Nicodemus isn't going to be challenged by that. He's challenged by people like Harry and Michael.

1. Whoever goes after Nicodemus, it won't be goodguys.  They will be really nasty types who are in it for money, or if they're from the supernatural side of the fence they will be in it for favors.  Marcone has probably built up enough favors he can trade some to them to harass Nicodemus, even if the odds of killing him are very low.

2.  I'm sure Jim could create a situation where Nicodemus is vulnerable.  It might even be a way to demonstrate; if only in a small way, how the Grail can be used as a weapon.   
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Offline Mira

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Re: Denarian Short Story
« Reply #16 on: June 29, 2019, 11:14:39 AM »
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2.  I'm sure Jim could create a situation where Nicodemus is vulnerable.  It might even be a way to demonstrate; if only in a small way, how the Grail can be used as a weapon.   

He has already shown that through Tessa..  I also think sacrificing Deidre will have lasting effects, made him very vulnerable...   Also unless Michael is wrong, while it is a thing of power the Grail is a force for good..

Offline morriswalters

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Re: Denarian Short Story
« Reply #17 on: June 29, 2019, 11:28:11 AM »
Just a thought.  Why add something else to what is already a pretty full plate writing wise.  I'd settle for getting the stories I've already bought into.  The Dresden case files.

Offline nadia.skylark

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Re: Denarian Short Story
« Reply #18 on: June 29, 2019, 03:41:54 PM »
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I kinda see the point, but then you'd have people thinking that Jim "chickened out" of leaving it broken. Having it fixed in the same book it's broken makes it clear that was the plan all along.

For me, it feels like the opposite: I always knew that the Sword would be fixed, but having it done so easily made it feel like he was "chickening out" of writing actual consequences for it breaking.

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We already saw all that from Harry's perspective. We don't need to see the exact same thing from the outside.

No we didn't. First, Harry never actually took up the coin. Second, Harry never did anything actually bad because of it. Dodgy, occasionally, but not actually bad.

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Shiro is still dead.

He would have been dead before the next book anyway.

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Michael is still crippled.

And that's explicitly his happy ending.

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Murphy is still grievously injured.

Good point, but at least until we get the next book, this still has the "consequences are only in the book they occur in" issue.

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At least one Splattercon!!!-goer is dead because of Lasciel's influence.

People still care about this person?

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Plus? A story's mainly interesting if it challenges its protagonist in some way. Nicodemus isn't going to be challenged by that.
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1. Whoever goes after Nicodemus, it won't be goodguys.
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He has already shown that through Tessa..

Maybe we could see Nicodemus going after the traitors who are N-fected/working with the Black Council! :)

Offline Mr. Death

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Re: Denarian Short Story
« Reply #19 on: June 29, 2019, 05:39:08 PM »
1. Whoever goes after Nicodemus, it won't be goodguys.  They will be really nasty types who are in it for money, or if they're from the supernatural side of the fence they will be in it for favors.  Marcone has probably built up enough favors he can trade some to them to harass Nicodemus, even if the odds of killing him are very low.
Marcone already got pretty complete revenge, and "send a bunch of mooks to harass him" just plain is not his style.

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2.  I'm sure Jim could create a situation where Nicodemus is vulnerable.  It might even be a way to demonstrate; if only in a small way, how the Grail can be used as a weapon.
He has. When he's up against Dresden. The whole idea is that Dresden is like the one person in centuries who's gotten Nicodemus's goat.

Nicodemus is just plain not protagonist material. He's not someone to be challenged on the way to his goals -- he is the challenge.

Plus? He's completely, irredeemably evil, an utterly horrible person in every respect. I don't see any value in a story where we're ostensibly rooting for him -- or, for that matter, a story where I'm actively rooting against the viewpoint character at every step.

For me, it feels like the opposite: I always knew that the Sword would be fixed, but having it done so easily made it feel like he was "chickening out" of writing actual consequences for it breaking.
I mean, this way it's clear that was the plan. If it got fixed two books later, that would not have been clear -- and it would have seemed, to at least some in the readership, like Jim had intended it to be broken forever, but chickened out and reversed course.

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No we didn't. First, Harry never actually took up the coin. Second, Harry never did anything actually bad because of it. Dodgy, occasionally, but not actually bad.
Because -- shock and awe -- Jim is not writing a book series where the badguys win and his main protagonist turns evil.

But the point remains -- we saw the whole, "Tempted by the coin and the power it represents" through Harry. Seeing it second-hand, for characters who make no sense whatsoever picking up a coin is just redundant and pointless. Of all Harry's inner circle, he was the most susceptible to the coins' power. Everyone else is smart enough to know it's not worth it.

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And that's explicitly his happy ending.
I imagine he might have been happier not being crippled for life. If it wasn't for the Denarians' plot, he wouldn't have gotten injured.

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Good point, but at least until we get the next book, this still has the "consequences are only in the book they occur in" issue.
Jim has already said more or less that Murphy is spending Peace Talks still in recovery.

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People still care about this person?
They were a person who died, so yes? This seems super callous. Does it only count as murder if they "mattered" as a person?

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Maybe we could see Nicodemus going after the traitors who are N-fected/working with the Black Council! :)
That brings up another point. Jim has said he can't really do a story from Mouse's perspective because he knows too much.

If that's the case, Nicodemus would know way too much.

Also, again -- irredeemably evil shitbag who literally thrives on the pain and suffering of innocent people and whose idea of a second honeymoon is killing off 1/3 of Europe.

I genuinely do not understand how people would want to be in his head for a 30 page story.
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Offline Mira

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Re: Denarian Short Story
« Reply #20 on: June 29, 2019, 06:00:48 PM »
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I genuinely do not understand how people would want to be in his head for a 30 page story.

I agree, unless perhaps to hear what Andriel is whispering in his ear and what Andriel is hearing as he spies about..

Offline nadia.skylark

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Re: Denarian Short Story
« Reply #21 on: June 29, 2019, 06:34:26 PM »
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I mean, this way it's clear that was the plan. If it got fixed two books later, that would not have been clear -- and it would have seemed, to at least some in the readership, like Jim had intended it to be broken forever, but chickened out and reversed course.

And what I'm saying is, it was clear to me from moment one, when the Sword broke, that it was Jim's plan to fix it. And that fixing it at the end of the book the way he did made it look, to me, like Jim had intended for us to see the consequences of it breaking and characters trying to fix it over a few books, but then chickened out and reversed course by fixing it right away.

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Because -- shock and awe -- Jim is not writing a book series where the badguys win and his main protagonist turns evil.

Yes, obviously.

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But the point remains -- we saw the whole, "Tempted by the coin and the power it represents" through Harry. Seeing it second-hand, for characters who make no sense whatsoever picking up a coin is just redundant and pointless.

That's like saying, "we've already seen the whole 'tempted by Winter's mantle and the power it represents' through Harry. Seeing it second-hand, by having Molly become the Winter Lady, is just redundant and pointless."

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Of all Harry's inner circle, he was the most susceptible to the coins' power. Everyone else is smart enough to know it's not worth it.

Thomas.

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I imagine he might have been happier not being crippled for life. If it wasn't for the Denarians' plot, he wouldn't have gotten injured.

Ah. I don't seem to have been clear here. When I said "that's explicitly Michael's happy ending," I didn't mean that I think that it's Michael's happy ending, I meant that we have WoJ that it is Michael's happy ending. This way he gets to spend time with his family, instead of always leaving for his job or getting killed.

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Jim has already said more or less that Murphy is spending Peace Talks still in recovery.

Okay. I hadn't seen that.

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They were a person who died, so yes? This seems super callous. Does it only count as murder if they "mattered" as a person?

Well, it's a book series rather than real life, so yeah.

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That brings up another point. Jim has said he can't really do a story from Mouse's perspective because he knows too much.

If that's the case, Nicodemus would know way too much.

Also, again -- irredeemably evil shitbag who literally thrives on the pain and suffering of innocent people and whose idea of a second honeymoon is killing off 1/3 of Europe.

I genuinely do not understand how people would want to be in his head for a 30 page story.

I don't need to be inside his head for it. I just feel like Nicodemus doesn't feel like a threat right now, which is upsetting to me because he's my favorite villain.

And we know that Nicodemus isn't such a bad guy that he and Harry couldn't have done the frenemies thing the way Harry and Mab are, because there's WoJ that if Harry had picked up Lasciel's coin in Changes, which was a real possibility, that would have happened.

Offline Mr. Death

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Re: Denarian Short Story
« Reply #22 on: June 29, 2019, 06:54:15 PM »
And what I'm saying is, it was clear to me from moment one, when the Sword broke, that it was Jim's plan to fix it. And that fixing it at the end of the book the way he did made it look, to me, like Jim had intended for us to see the consequences of it breaking and characters trying to fix it over a few books, but then chickened out and reversed course by fixing it right away.
A book is a single, coherent work. It's intended to be a single thing. He's not writing and publishing it piecemeal so that he has to be like, "Wait, shit, I don't want it to be broken, I'll have to fix it in the last chapter."

It's just less credible that he'd "chicken out" midway through writing it. If he had "chickened out" about breaking it midway through the book, then he still obviously has time to just, you know, go back and not break it.

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That's like saying, "we've already seen the whole 'tempted by Winter's mantle and the power it represents' through Harry. Seeing it second-hand, by having Molly become the Winter Lady, is just redundant and pointless."
Molly's mantle is a different beast -- for a start, it works differently. It's giving her very different urges, and it got into her in a very different way.

More importantly? It was a consequence of her choices that made sense with her character.

Picking up a Denarian coin does not make a single lick of sense for anyone else Harry knows.

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Thomas.
Who took all of one sentence from Harry to agree that it was a terrible idea to even consider it.

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Ah. I don't seem to have been clear here. When I said "that's explicitly Michael's happy ending," I didn't mean that I think that it's Michael's happy ending, I meant that we have WoJ that it is Michael's happy ending. This way he gets to spend time with his family, instead of always leaving for his job or getting killed.
I'm aware of that. The fact remains, he needed to be permanently crippled to have a "happy ending" because of the Denarians. It's still a consequence of their actions that has lasting effect on the series and on Michael.

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Well, it's a book series rather than real life, so yeah.
So, the Darkhallow succeeding and wiping out Chicago would only have mattered because Thomas and the Alphas lived there? The deaths in White Night only mattered because eventually Harry learned their names?

They matter. Harry is out to protect Chicago, not just those parts of it he knows personally. And in that case? He failed. Not even because he didn't get there in time, but because he took sadistic pleasure in punishing his opponent. An innocent person died because of his actions.

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I don't need to be inside his head for it. I just feel like Nicodemus doesn't feel like a threat right now, which is upsetting to me because he's my favorite villain.
Every story in Dresden is in the first-person. If the story was about Nicodemus, he'd be the viewpoint and first-person character.

I disagree that he doesn't feel like a threat. "His plan is stopped" doesn't mean he isn't a threat; it means that his plans are threatening enough to be worth stopping.

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And we know that Nicodemus isn't such a bad guy that he and Harry couldn't have done the frenemies thing the way Harry and Mab are, because there's WoJ that if Harry had picked up Lasciel's coin in Changes, which was a real possibility, that would have happened.
That's not because Nicodemus isn't that bad.

It's because picking up Lasciel's coin would have made Harry worse than he is now.

Why do you think Jim didn't go that route? He's even said that it would have ended up being a much darker series, with much worse consequences, for Molly in particular.

Seriously, Nicodemus literally gains power by torturing and murdering innocent people. His reaction to his plan failing is to kill innocent children and force their mother to watch them burn to death. He kidnapped a 12-year-old girl to torture and brainwash.

And that's just the stuff we know about.
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Offline nadia.skylark

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Re: Denarian Short Story
« Reply #23 on: June 30, 2019, 01:10:57 AM »
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A book is a single, coherent work. It's intended to be a single thing. He's not writing and publishing it piecemeal so that he has to be like, "Wait, shit, I don't want it to be broken, I'll have to fix it in the last chapter."

It's just less credible that he'd "chicken out" midway through writing it. If he had "chickened out" about breaking it midway through the book, then he still obviously has time to just, you know, go back and not break it.

You know, I'm not actually saying that I'm right and you're wrong here. I'm saying, "well, you may feel one way about it, but I feel a different way--it's not so clear-cut."

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Molly's mantle is a different beast -- for a start, it works differently. It's giving her very different urges, and it got into her in a very different way.

I'm pretty sure each Fallen in its coin works differently, too. They are each individuals, after all.

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More importantly? It was a consequence of her choices that made sense with her character.

Picking up a Denarian coin does not make a single lick of sense for anyone else Harry knows.

I disagree. Even apart from Thomas (who I'll talk about below) I can see Murphy getting tricked/coerced into taking up a coin. It would fit her character arc: in Small Favor, she talks about her faith in the law and how it hurts everyone to break it, in a manner reminiscent of the way Michael talks-->by Ghost Story, she's in a much darker place and disregarding the law-->at the end of Cold Days she say's she'll follow Harry down whatever dark road he chooses to take-->in Skin Game, she makes it clear that she'll do just about anything for Harry and to keep Harry safe, and gets the Sword broken as a result, and is also permanently injured-->I can easily see a situation where Murphy, worn down and feeling helpless, ends up taking up a coin because she thinks it's the only way to save Harry.

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Who took all of one sentence from Harry to agree that it was a terrible idea to even consider it.

Except he didn't really mean it, because Harry had to talk him out of it later. And then there was the thing with the Skinwalker convincing him that he's a monster, which we still haven't seen too many consequences from, and his reaction to Harry's suicide (which seems really clearly to have reinforced the "monster" thing for him), and now Justine is dying because she's pregnant with his child...

And Thomas hasn't been particularly affected by any of the Denarian stuff, so he wouldn't have the same reaction to the concept that the people who have been hurt by it would.

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I'm aware of that. The fact remains, he needed to be permanently crippled to have a "happy ending" because of the Denarians. It's still a consequence of their actions that has lasting effect on the series and on Michael.

But it's not a negative consequence, which is what I'm talking about.

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So, the Darkhallow succeeding and wiping out Chicago would only have mattered because Thomas and the Alphas lived there? The deaths in White Night only mattered because eventually Harry learned their names?

They matter. Harry is out to protect Chicago, not just those parts of it he knows personally. And in that case? He failed. Not even because he didn't get there in time, but because he took sadistic pleasure in punishing his opponent. An innocent person died because of his actions.

She was a throw-away character that doesn't get mentioned in any scene except the one she dies in. Harry doesn't even ever reflect on "that one girl he got killed because he was using hellfire" when he's talking to Michael about Lasciel at the end of that book (or anywhere else in that book), much less in any other books.

It's like, Harry's neighbors almost certainly can't watch tv, or use computers, without them breaking because Harry lives in the same apartment building as them. And I don't even want to think about how much they probably have to spend replacing cell phones. Or about things like hot showers and light bulbs. Harry is almost certainly making their lives worse by a fair amount. But that doesn't matter, because we don't see it in the books.

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Every story in Dresden is in the first-person. If the story was about Nicodemus, he'd be the viewpoint and first-person character.

The story could have Nicodemus in it without it being from his perspective.

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I disagree that he doesn't feel like a threat. "His plan is stopped" doesn't mean he isn't a threat; it means that his plans are threatening enough to be worth stopping.

He's not threatening the way Mab is, or the way the Fomor are, or the way the Red Court was. Because those guys win occasionally, and Nicodemus never does. That's the kind of victory I'm talking about. I mean, if there was even some mention of "so-and-so isn't available to help right now, because Nicodemus managed to *insert something nasty here* and they're busy doing damage control," or "Sanya's in the hospital--he tried to stop Nicodemus from doing *something nasty* and got a grenade tossed through the window of his hotel room for his trouble," I'd be happier. But he can't even seem to win offscreen.

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That's not because Nicodemus isn't that bad.

It's because picking up Lasciel's coin would have made Harry worse than he is now.

Why do you think Jim didn't go that route? He's even said that it would have ended up being a much darker series, with much worse consequences, for Molly in particular.

Jim has explicitly said that Harry went with Mab because she was the most reliable evil, not the lesser evil. And Molly would deal with worse consequences because of who her father is--if her father were the Summer Knight, then she would be dealing with worse consequences because Harry went with Mab.

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Seriously, Nicodemus literally gains power by torturing and murdering innocent people. His reaction to his plan failing is to kill innocent children and force their mother to watch them burn to death. He kidnapped a 12-year-old girl to torture and brainwash.

And that's just the stuff we know about.

You forgot about the Black Plague (although, fun fact, my high school history class said that the Black Plague was actually one of the major factor in causing the Renaissance, which drastically improved people's lives...  ;D )

And Mab and Lea have done stuff that is comparable.

Please note, I'm not saying that Nicodemus isn't evil. I'm saying that, from my perspective, he looks less like a "doing evil for fun" kind of guy, and more like what happens when you take an "ends justify the means" kind of guy and give him the ability to gain power by causing suffering, then wait 2000 years. His "ends" could be completely benevolent, irregardless of how evil his "means" make him.

Offline Mira

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Re: Denarian Short Story
« Reply #24 on: June 30, 2019, 03:59:27 AM »
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You forgot about the Black Plague (although, fun fact, my high school history class said that the Black Plague was actually one of the major factor in causing the Renaissance, which drastically improved people's lives...  ;D )

   The plague hit on and off all through the Renaissance...  Improvement in the weather pattern also helped, meant more food, the people got stronger and healthier, which meant they could use their minds for a bit more than mere survival, that is what brought on the Renaissance..

Offline Snark Knight

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Re: Denarian Short Story
« Reply #25 on: June 30, 2019, 04:04:25 PM »
Personally, I can't see a Nicodemus short happening. POV writing would have to at least touch on his motivations, and what endgame Nic is actually playing towards is so fundamental to the main novels that I'd be really surprised if Jim revealed it in a short rather than save it for book 20 or the BAT.

Now, a short from one of the others who aren't loyal to Nic's plan - Lasciel, or maybe Tessa / Imariel (if that didn't automatically spoil which Denarian is N-fected) ... that could be interesting indeed.
« Last Edit: June 30, 2019, 04:06:49 PM by Snark Knight »

Offline Mira

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Re: Denarian Short Story
« Reply #26 on: June 30, 2019, 08:52:59 PM »
Personally, I can't see a Nicodemus short happening. POV writing would have to at least touch on his motivations, and what endgame Nic is actually playing towards is so fundamental to the main novels that I'd be really surprised if Jim revealed it in a short rather than save it for book 20 or the BAT.

Now, a short from one of the others who aren't loyal to Nic's plan - Lasciel, or maybe Tessa / Imariel (if that didn't automatically spoil which Denarian is N-fected) ... that could be interesting indeed.

I really doubt that any of the Denarians are N-fected, I think they play for the same team.

Offline nadia.skylark

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Re: Denarian Short Story
« Reply #27 on: July 01, 2019, 02:14:39 AM »
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I really doubt that any of the Denarians are N-fected, I think they play for the same team.

What about the thing with Thorned Namshiel then, and Nicodemus's reaction to being told that hellfire was used in the assault on Arctis Tor?

Offline Mira

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Re: Denarian Short Story
« Reply #28 on: July 01, 2019, 03:52:34 AM »
What about the thing with Thorned Namshiel then, and Nicodemus's reaction to being told that hellfire was used in the assault on Arctis Tor?

  Who knows?  It isn't like Nic isn't a liar.. 

Offline Mr. Death

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Re: Denarian Short Story
« Reply #29 on: July 01, 2019, 02:33:12 PM »
You know, I'm not actually saying that I'm right and you're wrong here. I'm saying, "well, you may feel one way about it, but I feel a different way--it's not so clear-cut."
Fair enough.

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I'm pretty sure each Fallen in its coin works differently, too. They are each individuals, after all.
And the uniqueness is what happens inside the characters' heads. Unless Jim's going to write a bunch of extra short stories, which A. he doesn't really want to do, and B. would make them required reading for the main series, we're just plain not going to see it.

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I disagree. Even apart from Thomas (who I'll talk about below) I can see Murphy getting tricked/coerced into taking up a coin. It would fit her character arc: in Small Favor, she talks about her faith in the law and how it hurts everyone to break it, in a manner reminiscent of the way Michael talks-->by Ghost Story, she's in a much darker place and disregarding the law-->at the end of Cold Days she say's she'll follow Harry down whatever dark road he chooses to take-->in Skin Game, she makes it clear that she'll do just about anything for Harry and to keep Harry safe, and gets the Sword broken as a result, and is also permanently injured-->I can easily see a situation where Murphy, worn down and feeling helpless, ends up taking up a coin because she thinks it's the only way to save Harry.
Murphy has already flatly refused power from benign and outright good sources, including the one literally powered by the God of her own faith. She's seen what the coin did to Harry and recognized -- then and now -- that it was a bad thing for him. She has been personally attacked and physically near disabled by the Denarians.

Her picking up a coin would not fit with any of that or the character development that came with it. She'd have to be very stupid to ignore everything she has seen with her own eyes.

Plus, Jim's said repeatedly she's not getting any supernatural power-ups.

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Except he didn't really mean it, because Harry had to talk him out of it later. And then there was the thing with the Skinwalker convincing him that he's a monster, which we still haven't seen too many consequences from, and his reaction to Harry's suicide (which seems really clearly to have reinforced the "monster" thing for him), and now Justine is dying because she's pregnant with his child...
As far as I can recall, the only time Harry has to talk him out of it is in Small Favor, right after they find Hendrix and Gard.

Accepting the "monster," which, going by the later books he really has not genuinely done, does not mean he's going to take up a coin. Justine is in trouble because of the one monster already in Thomas, he'd have to be monumentally stupid to think that another monster would help.

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And Thomas hasn't been particularly affected by any of the Denarian stuff, so he wouldn't have the same reaction to the concept that the people who have been hurt by it would.
Because, frankly? It's not his plot. It's Harry's, and Harry has basically gone the whole nine yards on it. And he's seen enough of it in Harry and has enough experience fighting his own demon that he'd understand the concept.

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But it's not a negative consequence, which is what I'm talking about.
He's half blind and needs a cane to walk, and I think I remember something about him losing a kidney. That seems pretty negative to me.

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She was a throw-away character that doesn't get mentioned in any scene except the one she dies in. Harry doesn't even ever reflect on "that one girl he got killed because he was using hellfire" when he's talking to Michael about Lasciel at the end of that book (or anywhere else in that book), much less in any other books.
It's still something that affects him. That there were other, bigger things going on does not negate that.

If it were meaningless, it would not be pointed out so directly in the book.

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It's like, Harry's neighbors almost certainly can't watch tv, or use computers, without them breaking because Harry lives in the same apartment building as them. And I don't even want to think about how much they probably have to spend replacing cell phones. Or about things like hot showers and light bulbs. Harry is almost certainly making their lives worse by a fair amount. But that doesn't matter, because we don't see it in the books.
Harry's field does not extend that far. In an early book, he's in line of sight of Murphy and she's able to safely turn off her computer while he's in the hall just outside her office.

He's in the subbasement of a boarding house and I think in Changes it's mentioned that his only neighbors are a couple elderly people two floors above him. They're fine.

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The story could have Nicodemus in it without it being from his perspective.
Then it's not a story about Nicodemus. It's a story about whoever's perspective it's from.

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He's not threatening the way Mab is, or the way the Fomor are, or the way the Red Court was. Because those guys win occasionally, and Nicodemus never does. That's the kind of victory I'm talking about. I mean, if there was even some mention of "so-and-so isn't available to help right now, because Nicodemus managed to *insert something nasty here* and they're busy doing damage control," or "Sanya's in the hospital--he tried to stop Nicodemus from doing *something nasty* and got a grenade tossed through the window of his hotel room for his trouble," I'd be happier. But he can't even seem to win offscreen.
So the guy who nearly killed Harry several times, crippled Harry's best friend and nearly killed Harry's daughter is less threatening than Mab, whose only action directly against Harry has been to make him stab his hand?

The Fomor are scared of wizards in general and only came into the city because Harry wasn't there. And they haven't won anything on screen. Their biggest on-screen operations have been thwarted by a short mortal woman and a half-mad, half-trained wizard. The "wins" they've had so far are kidnapping people who -- as you would have it -- don't matter.

Nicodemus doesn't win "off screen" because he's the type of baddie that whatever plot he's up to needs to be stopped by the main character. He's not going to go rob a bank. He's going to depopulate a major country by unleashing a plague at an airport.

Frankly, he's too "big" for a short story material.

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Jim has explicitly said that Harry went with Mab because she was the most reliable evil, not the lesser evil. And Molly would deal with worse consequences because of who her father is--if her father were the Summer Knight, then she would be dealing with worse consequences because Harry went with Mab.
Mab is less evil than Nicodemus. Jim doesn't have to spell that out because it's frankly obvious. Mab is going to ask Harry to kill people -- but for a reason, and we learn that her reasons have to do with preserving reality.

Nicodemus is going to actively try to make Harry a worse person, someone who kills because it's convenient. Mab prefers that Harry fight back against her nastier side and wants him to do his own thing.

And you think that would be the only consequences for Molly? You don't think Miss Crazy In Love With Harry And Already Tempted AF To The Dark Side would look at Harry taking up a coin and think, "Well, if he's doing it, maybe I should to?"

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You forgot about the Black Plague (although, fun fact, my high school history class said that the Black Plague was actually one of the major factor in causing the Renaissance, which drastically improved people's lives...  ;D )

And Mab and Lea have done stuff that is comparable.
Such as?

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Please note, I'm not saying that Nicodemus isn't evil. I'm saying that, from my perspective, he looks less like a "doing evil for fun" kind of guy, and more like what happens when you take an "ends justify the means" kind of guy and give him the ability to gain power by causing suffering, then wait 2000 years. His "ends" could be completely benevolent, irregardless of how evil his "means" make him.
At a certain point, it doesn't really matter what his ends are.

Means of "causing a new Black Plague, murdering innocent children out of spite and torturing a 12-year-old girl" are way past that point.

The kind of person who would do any of those things -- let alone all three with a smug smile on his face -- is not the kind of person who fits the protagonist role in a series like Dresden.
« Last Edit: July 01, 2019, 03:22:08 PM by Mr. Death »
Compels solve everything!

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