Author Topic: Who dies in Peace Talks  (Read 29757 times)

Offline 123Chikadee

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Re: Who dies in Peace Talks
« Reply #60 on: August 10, 2019, 04:38:33 PM »
@g33k: Oh yeah, if he ever framed it that way to her, yeah that'd be awesome. I think she could have some inkling of it, but yeah.
Sorry, I just realized that I kept putting L in front of Raith for all these fights and I meant to say Lord Raith and Eb throwing down was what I really wanted to see, awesome showdown between Harry and Lara aside.
@CrusherJen: Oooh, some of those are possibilities I hadn't considered. And so many fight scenes to get too! Although I do think this could be an opportunity for the Alphas to power up and have a chance to shine.  Not sure if Elaine will show up, it'd be cool to see her lightening chain move again.
@BadAlias: I'm not sure if Harry and Murphy do hit true love, at least this quick. I could have sworn that being in love gave you some protection from the Whamp whammie, since Arturo Genosa seemed more or less ok when he showed up. 

Offline CrusherJen

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Re: Who dies in Peace Talks
« Reply #61 on: August 11, 2019, 06:23:21 AM »
Thank you @123Chikadee!  ;D
"An errand is getting a tank of gas or picking up a carton of milk or something. It is not getting chased by flying purple pyromaniac gorillas hurling incendiary poo."   --from Blood Rites

Offline Mira

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Re: Who dies in Peace Talks
« Reply #62 on: August 11, 2019, 10:42:01 AM »
@g33k: Oh yeah, if he ever framed it that way to her, yeah that'd be awesome. I think she could have some inkling of it, but yeah.
Sorry, I just realized that I kept putting L in front of Raith for all these fights and I meant to say Lord Raith and Eb throwing down was what I really wanted to see, awesome showdown between Harry and Lara aside.
@CrusherJen: Oooh, some of those are possibilities I hadn't considered. And so many fight scenes to get too! Although I do think this could be an opportunity for the Alphas to power up and have a chance to shine.  Not sure if Elaine will show up, it'd be cool to see her lightening chain move again.
@BadAlias: I'm not sure if Harry and Murphy do hit true love, at least this quick. I could have sworn that being in love gave you some protection from the Whamp whammie, since Arturo Genosa seemed more or less ok when he showed up.

True love does protect, but one dalliance and the protection is rendered moot...  What is weird is it is the the sex act itself, not the emotion of love or lack there of behind it that shatters the protection.

Offline KurtinStGeorge

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Re: Who dies in Peace Talks
« Reply #63 on: August 11, 2019, 06:16:44 PM »
True love does protect, but one dalliance and the protection is rendered moot...  What is weird is it is the the sex act itself, not the emotion of love or lack there of behind it that shatters the protection.

This may sound a bit icky, so I need to state upfront that my conclusion is not meant as some kind of juvenile joke.  The emotional truth behind a sexual act of a mere dalliance is that it can be based on several things, but not true love.  For example, loneliness caused by a long separation; as occurs when soldiers go off to fight a war, can lead to susceptibility to giving in to a sexual impulse by either party in the relationship.  The cause could also be something meaning meaner, like anger of one person at a perceived wrong by the one who they love; like Othello being led to believe Desdemona was unfaithful.  It is the emotional insincerity of a person in the former example, or the anger which motivated the later example which damages and destroys a individual's love immunity, the sexual act just makes it stick.     
 
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Offline g33k

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Re: Who dies in Peace Talks
« Reply #64 on: August 11, 2019, 10:23:24 PM »
The sexual act does seem to have undue weight.

Look at the scene near the end of GS, where Justine figures out how to work around her and Thomas' "problem."  I cheered her for finding a solution, but nevertheless...  really, JB?  Is it that much of a stupid-easy solution?

And if so, why isn't this stupid-easy solution common knowledge within the house filled with incubi & succubi???

Offline Mira

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Re: Who dies in Peace Talks
« Reply #65 on: August 12, 2019, 11:11:31 AM »
The sexual act does seem to have undue weight.

Look at the scene near the end of GS, where Justine figures out how to work around her and Thomas' "problem."  I cheered her for finding a solution, but nevertheless...  really, JB?  Is it that much of a stupid-easy solution?

And if so, why isn't this stupid-easy solution common knowledge within the house filled with incubi & succubi???

We've had this debate on and off for years,  true love does not equal sex, heck it since some pay for the physical release of the act, or use it has a power trip or violence as in rape, has nothing to do with love at all..  Yet the sex act itself will destroy the protection of true love, even if the now vulnerable person still feels true love...   Lara's lips burned when she kissed Harry because he hadn't had sex with anyone since Susan left him...   

Offline Kindler

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Re: Who dies in Peace Talks
« Reply #66 on: August 12, 2019, 02:49:14 PM »
I always assumed it had something to do with aura or souls. For example, Bob notices that Harry recently got a hug from Murphy at the end of one of the books (probably Small Favor, when Harry first chucks out Soulfire, but I can't recall exactly). The way Bob described it is that there's a kind of co-mingling going on there. I imagine sex is simply the strongest type of soul co-mingling that's possible, and since there's so much of two people's soul (or aura?), there's no room for a third party to feed on it. 

Offline Mira

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Re: Who dies in Peace Talks
« Reply #67 on: August 12, 2019, 07:57:26 PM »
I always assumed it had something to do with aura or souls. For example, Bob notices that Harry recently got a hug from Murphy at the end of one of the books (probably Small Favor, when Harry first chucks out Soulfire, but I can't recall exactly). The way Bob described it is that there's a kind of co-mingling going on there. I imagine sex is simply the strongest type of soul co-mingling that's possible, and since there's so much of two people's soul (or aura?), there's no room for a third party to feed on it.

  At least on the debate we had, cannot remember if there was a WOJ on it or not, but even rape can wreck the protection..  That is hardly soul co-mingling more like soul destroying...

Offline KurtinStGeorge

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Re: Who dies in Peace Talks
« Reply #68 on: August 12, 2019, 08:19:52 PM »
The sexual act does seem to have undue weight.

Look at the scene near the end of GS, where Justine figures out how to work around her and Thomas' "problem."  I cheered her for finding a solution, but nevertheless...  really, JB?  Is it that much of a stupid-easy solution?

And if so, why isn't this stupid-easy solution common knowledge within the house filled with incubi & succubi???

Because none of them have been in love?  Plus, they were raised to think of love as a poison to be avoided at all costs.

The White Court are like a group of families whose individual members are almost all psychopaths.  They don't quite fit the definition of being psychopaths, but it's pretty close.   It's the combination of the demon inside of each White Court vamp and how they are raised that makes them what they are.

(Just to be clear, a psychopath can be intelligent, charismatic and very successful in the outside world.  I read an article that claimed that perhaps 10-15% of all Fortune 500 company CEO's might qualify as psychopaths.  They can fake having empathy and other deep emotions, but they lack real empathy for anyone but themselves.  Most psychopaths are not murderers, my guess is a huge percentage are con artists.  Such a person has no problems stealing the life savings of an 80 year-old retired school teacher, for example.  In fact, they would consider it fun.  Sociopaths tend to be introverts and loners, they have difficulty communicating with others, but at times can develop some empathy for an individual or a group.  The serial killer Ted Bundy was a psychopath; some people who thought they were his friends told Bundy he should go into politics, that he could become the Governor of his state someday.  Ted Kaczynski; AKA the Unabomber, is a sociopath; he left a normal college job and lived by himself in a cabin, but had a degree of empathy for his brother, who turned him in.)
 
Thomas is obviously an exception to rest of his kin, but according to Lara, there have been others like him.  Because of the influence of their demon within them, White Court vampires aren't natural psychopaths; if the word "natural" even applies here, but like Lara and Madeline they can come to revel in being monsters.

So most White Court vampires would never think about how to get around "love immunity."  They don't share any empathy with the people they feed off of, Lord Raith didn't have any real empathy for his children, and without empathy love can't exist.

(This topic reminds of a WAG I want to post about Thomas.  Unfortunately, I've still got a lot to write so it might take another week or two for me to finish, edit and post it.  I think it will draw a reaction, and probably a strong one, from many of you.  Unfortunately, lunch is over, time to get back to real work.  Maybe I can work on it tonight.)     
« Last Edit: August 12, 2019, 08:26:21 PM by KurtinStGeorge »
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Offline Bad Alias

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Re: Who dies in Peace Talks
« Reply #69 on: August 13, 2019, 12:58:11 AM »
In the words of Thomas when explaining how he feeds at the hair salon, it's not sex, it's intimacy. Though it seems physical contact is also required. Therefore it's probably intimate physical contact that's required. There aren't too many acts of physical contact that are even arguably more intimate than sex. Sex between two people in "true" love would be both physically and emotionally intimate, and that level of intimacy is what's required to leave the protection. The intimacy act of sex would seem to be the minimum amount of intimacy to remove the protection.

Also, Madeline Raith had it figured out in Turn Coat.

Offline Mira

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Re: Who dies in Peace Talks
« Reply #70 on: August 13, 2019, 10:53:34 AM »
In the words of Thomas when explaining how he feeds at the hair salon, it's not sex, it's intimacy. Though it seems physical contact is also required. Therefore it's probably intimate physical contact that's required. There aren't too many acts of physical contact that are even arguably more intimate than sex. Sex between two people in "true" love would be both physically and emotionally intimate, and that level of intimacy is what's required to leave the protection. The intimacy act of sex would seem to be the minimum amount of intimacy to remove the protection.

Also, Madeline Raith had it figured out in Turn Coat.

  But it is more complicated, because one can have sex without sentiment, but that will still blow the protection..  But things like wedding rings even flowers exchanged in true love can burn..

Offline Bad Alias

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Re: Who dies in Peace Talks
« Reply #71 on: August 13, 2019, 08:08:07 PM »
Can any human action be entirely devoid of sentiment? Can sex be devoid of physical intimacy? Will I ever learn to spell intimacy without spell check?

Offline Mira

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Re: Who dies in Peace Talks
« Reply #72 on: August 13, 2019, 10:09:30 PM »
Can any human action be entirely devoid of sentiment? Can sex be devoid of physical intimacy? Will I ever learn to spell intimacy without spell check?

Yes, in my opinion if sex is used as a weapon as in rape..  Or when the act is a mere physical release as when pays for it with a prostitute,  detachment on both sides.  It is perhaps why if true love happens before the first kill the Hunger burned away.. After the first kill, sexual pleasure can be felt and fed upon like Thomas did as a hair dresser..   There does seem to be a difference between carnal pleasure and true love...  Carnal pleasure is what the Hunger stimulates in the victim and then in turn feeds upon it until the victim usually dies..  However true love is more than mere pleasure, and the Hunger is burned by it...

Offline Bad Alias

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Re: Who dies in Peace Talks
« Reply #73 on: August 14, 2019, 03:10:44 PM »
I'll admit that your examples are devoid of positive sentiments, but not sentiment. It's difficult to use a weapon without sentiment. Also, we're talking about Jim "sex has consequences" Butcher's world, not the real one. I think he has a more traditional view of the meaning of sex than our culture at large does these days.

Another thing, is that the in book theory about why human practitioners have side effects is because they always have at least two conflicting motivations for their actions. Therefore, all human action has sentiment.

I don't think you addressed my point about physical intimacy.

Offline Mira

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Re: Who dies in Peace Talks
« Reply #74 on: August 14, 2019, 08:55:00 PM »
I'll admit that your examples are devoid of positive sentiments, but not sentiment. It's difficult to use a weapon without sentiment. Also, we're talking about Jim "sex has consequences" Butcher's world, not the real one. I think he has a more traditional view of the meaning of sex than our culture at large does these days.

Another thing, is that the in book theory about why human practitioners have side effects is because they always have at least two conflicting motivations for their actions. Therefore, all human action has sentiment.

I don't think you addressed my point about physical intimacy.

Rape does not equal physical intimacy...  Turning a trick in the back of an auto doesn't,  nor does selling one's body..  Yet all of those will blow the true love protection...