Author Topic: Who dies in Peace Talks  (Read 29645 times)

Offline 123Chikadee

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Who dies in Peace Talks
« on: June 26, 2019, 11:22:37 PM »
I'm not sure if anyone has posted this topic before but if they have, feel free to delete this. I just thought we could make our own little death lists to pass the time. :) Since JB said its the most supernaturally violent, this could be a long list.
I posit that the following will die:
Lara-possibly by Cowl.
The White King-Probably by Eb.
Ebeneezer McCoy.
Other White Council Members. It's probably easier to list those who I think will live: Merlin, Gatekeeper, Carlos, Listens to Wind, Martha Liberty. Luccio and Ancient Mai could go either way.
John Marcone
Hendricks
Mavra-if she shows up. Probably Harry who kills her or Butters?
Possibly Kincaid
Fix
Possibly Titania.
I'm thinking there could be a pretty big change up in Summer to happen here but not to the point where the world ends.
I think more could be added to the list. Though I don't think Murphy, Butters, Justine, or Thomas will die. I think Butters and Thomas will have fake-outs but they seem to obvious to actually kill off. Killing off Murphy and Justine would just be fridge-ing at this point.
Thoughts?


Offline morriswalters

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Re: Who dies in Peace Talks
« Reply #1 on: June 26, 2019, 11:38:53 PM »
Thomas is toast, because baby.  Other than that, clueless.

Offline 123Chikadee

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Re: Who dies in Peace Talks
« Reply #2 on: June 27, 2019, 02:46:21 AM »
I hope not, I love Thomas.

Offline KurtinStGeorge

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Re: Who dies in Peace Talks
« Reply #3 on: June 27, 2019, 03:44:38 AM »
I think we've done this before.  My money would be on Lord Raith and or Ebenezer.

Lord Raith to set up succession problems and so Lara can demonstrate she's learned most of Lord Raith's tricks.

Ebenezer because sooner or later it's bound to happen.  Sooner or later Harry will become the new Blackstaff.
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Offline Kindler

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Re: Who dies in Peace Talks
« Reply #4 on: June 27, 2019, 03:57:01 PM »
That's a pretty big body count. Let's go through the cast and see who may have their Plot Armor revoked.

1. Unlike lots of fans, I think Murphy is safe until Body Slam. She's probably not going to be in Mirror, Mirror much, and I don't see Harry having is act together on Christmas Eve if she's been dead for just a few months.
2. Thomas might die because he's gonna be a dad. He may be in a Changes-type situation where he's got to go to the mat for his kid, but comes up short in terms of making it out alive, though he'll succeed in setting things up for said kid to have a shot at survival.
3. Will and Georgia probably won't be in it much. Plus the Alphas have been through enough since Turn Coat. I think they're reasonably safe.
4. Maggie's not going anywhere.
5. Butters just got his new job. He'll be fine.
6. Marcone is going to be important in some way to the BAT, I think, so I'm pretty sure he'll stick around for the rest of the Case books.
7. Hendricks might die. It would be one of the fastest ways to get Marcone to unload on someone.
8. Gard's also a possibility. Killing a Valkyrie is a reasonable way to set up someone as a legitimate threat. And if Hendricks is still alive, he'd go ballistic (literally; the dude has used a helicopter's chain gun before). Also possible that the two go down together.
9. Bob's Bob. It would take some serious plot events to get him dead. Maybe the White Council finds out about him? That could be fun.
10. Justine's unlikely; pregnant women are rarely killed off. I think she's safe for now.
11. Lara Raith... I don't know. I can go either way on her getting offed. It would have to be a coup attempt, I think, possibly by Thomas in a bid to secure a future for his kid.
12. Michael + Carpenter family. I think they'll be fine, cuz they're in Christmas Eve.
13. Molly'll outlive us all.
14. Mab's still necessary. And in Christmas Eve, along with Kringle. So maybe "Vaderrung" dies, while Kringle lives on, or something.
15. White King might go down if his weakness is revealed. Again, possibly by Thomas, during a complicated coup.
16. The Merlin, I'm sure, will live.
17. Martha Liberty and Listens-to-Wind may get offed, but the fight would be spectacular.
18. I don't think Eb will die just yet. His death will have significant ramifications, I think, and I can't see the next book failing to explore those. Kinda feel the same way about Martha and Injun Joe, but I could be totally wrong.
19. I can see Luccio and/or Carlos dying. That has emotional impact for Harry and plot significance without really needing a ton of follow up; it'd mostly be about how Harry feels about it, I think, rather than upsetting the balance of power even further.
20. I doubt we'll see Goodman Grey, the Denarians, Binder, or Valmont, so... Hurray, they get to live!
21. Ivy's death would have catastrophic consequences, I think. So I'm pretty sure she'll make it.
22. Kincaid, on the other hand, is due for some real backstory. We might get a full exposition dump and a Day in the Limelight chapter for him only to watch him die in a really cool way. Plus, Murphy's never confronted him about shooting Dresden, and I kinda want to see that.
23. Christos might snuff it, if only because this book is bound to have political gamesmanship and I'd love to see him get caught up in his own scheme.
24. I feel like Vincent Graver, Chicago P.I. will return soon, and he'll possibly get killed so Harry can feel guilty about getting him involved.
25. Toot Toot is indestructible. You cannot destruct him. Go ahead and try it.
26. This might be the book that brings back Tilly. He probably won't die, though, since I see him playing a big role in the mortal government response to supernatural threats eventually.
27. Cowl and/or Kumori are, in my opinion, likely to rear their hooded heads again. I don't think Cowl's going to die just yet since he's a Bigger Bad type character, but we might find out who they are, and Kumori may die unless her real identity is one that's too important to the plot (like if she actually is Elaine).
28. On that note, Elaine may show up. If so, I expect her to live.
29. Titania's death would screw up the world for a while. So I think she'll still be kicking. Ditto Sarissa and the Mothers.
30. Mouse, dying? Not a chance.
31. Maybe we'll finally find out if Abby's dead.
32. Mac will do a brisk business during the Summit. Since everyone is supposed to be playing nice, I expect his neutral territory to be respected. I don't think he'll die.
33. Mister's as indestructible as Toot Toot.
34. Lea's death would be almost as earth shattering (especially to Harry) as Mab's. So I'm pretty sure she'll live.
35. Murphy's mom is 100% dying, in my opinion (pretty sure this is what Jim meant by his "Murphy's funeral." tweet), and it'll be entirely unrelated to the main plot. It'll just be one more thing for Harry to juggle.

I think that's it. That's what I think, anyway. Not too many deaths, but I might be surprised. Jim's done it before.

Offline Mira

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Re: Who dies in Peace Talks
« Reply #5 on: June 27, 2019, 06:26:30 PM »


Why do you think Murphy is safe until "Body Slam"?   Do you have inside information?  Though I
tend to agree our collective legs were being pulled by Jim in regards to writing about her funeral...

Offline Kindler

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Re: Who dies in Peace Talks
« Reply #6 on: June 27, 2019, 07:17:18 PM »
No, I don't have any information you don't have access to. I think she's safe because:
A) they literally just started their romantic relationship, and Jim isn't going to end it right away in Peace Talks; he's spent fifteen books building toward that relationship, and he's not going to waste it in one book.
B) He still has to explore Murphy's injury and its effects on her character and personality as she deals with being, for the moment, handicapped.
C) If he's going to kill Murphy (in plot-related events, I mean; there might be a Distant Finale or something where she's died of old age or disease or something), she's going to go down fighting. There is zero chance, in my opinion, that she's going to be helpless if or when she dies, and three months after Skin Game, she's not going to be able to do any fighting due to her injuries. She's earned a warrior's death, and though Jim's cruel, he also operates partially on Rule of Cool. The guy's not George R.R. Martin, jokes about waiting years for the next book aside, and he's not going to rob readers of seeing her die well if she's going to die at all.
D) I assume she won't bite the dust in Mirror, Mirror, since I further assume Prime Murphy won't be in it much, if at all; if she somehow travels with him to the alternate universe, maybe she'll get left behind or get killed or something, though.
E) I know Jim likes to torture us, but Murphy's honestly been through enough the past several books, and her character arc isn't nearly complete yet.
F) We really need to explore her relationship with Maggie, too—her previously absentee father's old friend/new girlfriend is going to be deliciously awkward, I think, and probably more than a little heartwarming.
G) She's part of the main cast. There's no way Jim leaks that Murphy dies unless it's a case of Exact Words (meaning Ms. Murphy, or a flashback to Jack Murphy's funeral, etc.)
H) There's a whole side to Murphy that we haven't seen yet, and Jim has been building toward showing that to us. She's not going to die until we've seen it.
I) There's no way Harry's got his sh*t together a few months after Peace Talks if Murphy's dead. Not enough to banter with Mab and Kringle, or happily putting together a bicycle. Mostly, I think he'd be either furious or devastated or SadGry, a word I just made up. He can handle the loss of some people, but Murphy, Michael, Molly, or Maggie (all the M's) would wreck him completely.

Anyway, since I really doubt Murphy dies in Peace Talks and I assume she won't really be in Mirror, Mirror, I think she's safe until at least Body Slam. Though that book sounds reasonably lighthearted, so it might not fit the narrative.

Personally, I think that the Case Files books will end with Harry's "retirement," where he basically says, "I've had enough," and screws off to live on Demonreach like a hermit or something. I think Murphy's death is what makes him quit. Then he's pulled out of his semi-retirement for the BAT, because there's literally nobody else who can stop it. Though, of course, that's speculation of the highest order, trying to predict events we're a decade (or less. Please, God, less) away from reading.

Offline 123Chikadee

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Re: Who dies in Peace Talks
« Reply #7 on: June 27, 2019, 07:43:17 PM »
@KurtinStGeorge: Oh yeah? Sorry bout that.
@Kindler: Oooh, I like how you listed it.
1. Me too on all counts. I'm not sure how involved she is gonna be involved in PT. I'm with Kindler on this.
2. I dunno, I feel like that's a tad too obvious and JB's good at mixing it up, trope wise. So I think Thomas will get injured and live as a way to keep the audience guessing. It'll be a fake out IMO.
3. I hope they will and that they get a lot stronger. Maybe take down some other antagonists.
4. Very true.
5. Yeah. Same. Though I do think that he'll get hurt, just to show that being a Jedi Knight isn't just wish fulfillment.
6. Well there are going to be some shake ups, and this would be a pretty big one to me.
7. Oh yeah, I didn't think of it like that.
8. Gard dying I hadn't thought on too much, just that she'd be upset if Hendricks died but yeah I could see her go out in a blaze of glory. Having her and Hendricks go down together would be sweet.
9. Yeah I'm a tad doubtful about Bob dying in this book since he's so useful. But yeah I wanna be the fly on the wall when the council finds out about him.
10. Yeah me too, plus, fridging is a bad thing.
11. Hm, I hadn't thought Thomas could be desperate enough to do that, but its an interesting possibility. I just think Lara is a solid 50/50. She's been getting stronger and stronger all this time, so if not death, then a serious setback for her.
12. Yup.
13. Yeah and she just got her new gig too.
14. This. The idea that Odin's Vadderung mantle could "die" but not his "Santa" one is pretty neat. If that's the case, it'd be neat to learn how that works. "Christmas Eve" on the whole, showed that Winter would be ok.
15. Yeah, I'm thinking it's time for White King to die. Yeah, I think there's gonna a coup.
16. Oh yeah, it'll be awhile before he dies.
17. Wouldn't it just? I think Listens-to-Wind might stick around a bit longer than Martha Liberty will, just a feeling.
18. Yeah I see your point, but I do think Eb is a 50/50 with dying. I'm not sure when he dies but it would be a good way to hurt Harry, which JB is all about.
19. I could too, though I think Luccio could die more than Carlos. I think he's got a ways to go before he dies.
20. Exactly so hurray for all of them!
21. Yeah and it would get that way pretty fast, so I'm thinking Kincaid could die trying to protect her.
22. Oh, yeah speaking of. This for sure. It'd be even better if Thomas was around when that gets revealed.
23. Oooh, me too. Christos getting killed would be interesting to see.
24. Yeah could be, esp as he could try and help out Harry before he dies.
25. LOL omg, that'd be amazing.
26. Exactly, I see him succeeding where Vincent fails. So maybe Tilly and Vincent meet?
27. Yeah, they'll show up for sure. My money on Kumori's ID is Faith Astor, but if she's nobody we've seen then yeah, she could die. Cowl's got a ways to go yet.
28. Yeah, Elaine'll prolly live. I'm actually not sure if she'll show up or not.
29. Yeah, you're prolly right. I just want Summer to get more coverage. Something, anything.
30. Yeah no. It would be cool if Mouse's Shadow would show up but I doubt it.
31. Think there's a WOJ that said she lived.
32. Yeah, he'll live, I'd be surprised if he didn't but I don't mind being wrong on this one. That'd be such an insane twist.
33. Yeah and I'd be as sad as Harry too if it happened.
34. True, so that means she'll die at a later point.
35. Exactly, it's not Karrin but a family member. This funeral is what I think will keep Karrin too busy to participate in the Peace Talks.

Offline Bad Alias

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Re: Who dies in Peace Talks
« Reply #8 on: June 27, 2019, 08:38:50 PM »
18. I don't think Eb will die just yet. His death will have significant ramifications, I think, and I can't see the next book failing to explore those. Kinda feel the same way about Martha and Injun Joe, but I could be totally wrong.
...
23. Christos might snuff it, if only because this book is bound to have political gamesmanship and I'd love to see him get caught up in his own scheme.
Eb's death (or anyone's really) could be explored in a really interesting way in Mirror Mirror with Eb (or, again, said anyone).

I think Cristos will live precisely because he is either Black Council or has a firm grasp on the idiot ball. I'd bet he'll be around to cause problems for a while now.

SadGry, a word I just made up.

Word approved.

Offline 123Chikadee

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Re: Who dies in Peace Talks
« Reply #9 on: June 27, 2019, 11:13:18 PM »
That's a good point. I do wanna know when Eb's gonna die. It feels like it'll come soon. Yeah, I bet your right about Christos.
SadGry, that's perfect, lol.

Offline Regenbogen

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Re: Who dies in Peace Talks
« Reply #10 on: June 28, 2019, 06:55:53 AM »

35. Murphy's mom is 100% dying, in my opinion (pretty sure this is what Jim meant by his "Murphy's funeral." tweet), and it'll be entirely unrelated to the main plot. It'll just be one more thing for Harry to juggle.


That is possible, didn't think of that. After reading the Christmas Story, I was no longer completely convinced that Karrin will die in Peace Talks, because Harry wasn't acting like that had happened. But I thought of Karrin's father. Maybe the Murphy's funeral comment refered to his funeral. Maybe something significant happened there. Writing about Murphy's funeral could mean, that Karrin tells Harry about it. And they realize, someone said something or did something that explains what happened later. She only now understands.
« Last Edit: June 28, 2019, 06:57:57 AM by Regenbogen »

Offline Kindler

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Re: Who dies in Peace Talks
« Reply #11 on: June 28, 2019, 03:01:17 PM »
Eb's death (or anyone's really) could be explored in a really interesting way in Mirror Mirror with Eb (or, again, said anyone).

I think Cristos will live precisely because he is either Black Council or has a firm grasp on the idiot ball. I'd bet he'll be around to cause problems for a while now.

On Eb: the impact of his death would extend way past the way Harry feels about it, though. A Senior Council member and the Blackstaff snuffing it would have seriously significant consequences, and I don't see those consequences getting a chance to be explored in Mirror, Mirror.

Though I do agree that anyone who's dies in Peace Talks in Universe Prime could have their character and Harry's feelings very thoroughly explored in Mirror, Mirror, too. For instance, I expect Morgan to be an antagonist to Mirrorverse Harry, and Prime Harry's going to feel really weird about going up against him after Turn Coat.

That is possible, didn't think of that. After reading the Christmas Story, I was no longer completely convinced that Karrin will die in Peace Talks, because Harry wasn't acting like that had happened. But I thought of Karrin's father. Maybe the Murphy's funeral comment refered to his funeral. Maybe something significant happened there. Writing about Murphy's funeral could mean, that Karrin tells Harry about it. And they realize, someone said something or did something that explains what happened later. She only now understands.

Yep, it's either Murphy's Mom or a flashback to Jack's. I assume the flashback to Jack Murphy's funeral would get triggered by Mama Murphy's.

Offline Mira

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Re: Who dies in Peace Talks
« Reply #12 on: June 28, 2019, 03:24:13 PM »
That is possible, didn't think of that. After reading the Christmas Story, I was no longer completely convinced that Karrin will die in Peace Talks, because Harry wasn't acting like that had happened. But I thought of Karrin's father. Maybe the Murphy's funeral comment refered to his funeral. Maybe something significant happened there. Writing about Murphy's funeral could mean, that Karrin tells Harry about it. And they realize, someone said something or did something that explains what happened later. She only now understands.

Murphy hasn't  been mentioned at all since Skin Game...  It could mean nothing, she is recovering Harry is preoccupied with Maggie...  But then again,  it is odd given the implied direction for them at the end of Skin Game...   We've seen avoidance in Harry before when he is grieving, that could be why she isn't mentioned at all, nor was she a part of Christmas...  Very odd given how close Harry and her are, I know lots of plausible reasons for her not being there have been mentioned, but you'd think that a gift from her would carry at least as much weight as one from Mab... But no gift from "Aunt Karrin" was mentioned..

Offline Regenbogen

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Re: Who dies in Peace Talks
« Reply #13 on: June 28, 2019, 04:35:15 PM »
Murphy hasn't  been mentioned at all since Skin Game...  It could mean nothing, she is recovering Harry is preoccupied with Maggie...  But then again,  it is odd given the implied direction for them at the end of Skin Game...   We've seen avoidance in Harry before when he is grieving, that could be why she isn't mentioned at all, nor was she a part of Christmas...  Very odd given how close Harry and her are, I know lots of plausible reasons for her not being there have been mentioned, but you'd think that a gift from her would carry at least as much weight as one from Mab... But no gift from "Aunt Karrin" was mentioned..

Yes. This could mean, she has died before Christmas. Or they broke up... But it doesn't necessarily mean she will die in Peace Talks. There could be another book between. Peace Talks is in summer. A lot can happen in half a year.

Offline Mira

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Re: Who dies in Peace Talks
« Reply #14 on: June 28, 2019, 05:00:42 PM »
Yes. This could mean, she has died before Christmas. Or they broke up... But it doesn't necessarily mean she will die in Peace Talks. There could be another book between. Peace Talks is in summer. A lot can happen in half a year.

Very true, but honestly if she is indeed the one who is doomed to die, do you really think it will happen off page? :o