Ramírez & Lara Raith soulgaze

[kbrizzle]

While re-listening to White Night again, an interesting bit jumped out at me. After Harry & Ramírez arrive at Chateau Raith, Lara starts playing up the ‘come hither’, & focuses it on Ramírez, who responds by pointing a concealed knife at Lara’s throat & telling her that he’s not food. This leads to them getting into a soulgaze. I’ve paraphrased the convo below:

“Both of them stared, eyes widening & then shuddered. Lara took a small step back from Ramírez with her breathing slightly quickened. (Harry looks at her chest)
“If you meant to dissuade me, you haven’t” Lara says.
“Not you”.. it wasn’t to dissuade you” responds Ramírez in a rough voice.
“Wise for one so young. I advise you young wizard, not to hesitate so long to act should another approach you as I did” says Lara. (She then goes on about how attractive virgins are to Whamps).
Harry asks Ramírez a little later when they are alone, “You saw what was inside her?”
Ramírez shudders & responds  “That pale thing, her eyes. She was getting more turned on & it was looking more like it’s eyes.... her word is good, I saw that much”

What do you guys think Lara & Ramírez are talking about?

[peregrine]

Ramirez saw her inner demon and having seen that, he now knows enough not to let himself get seduced by her.

[isoycrazy]

I think Carlos saw a woman who wears a pretty mask but is a monster beneath.

Lara saw a man of inner strength and fortitude who is able to resist her power.

[kbrizzle]

@peregrine & isoycrazy
I mean Ramírez knew that before the soulgaze (hence be pulled a knife on her pre-Soulgaze), after the soulgaze he seems to be telling her that his guard is not up to dissuade her.

[Kindler]

I took it to mean that he soulgazed her specifically to see her Demon. It's the mental equivalent to taking a cold shower. Kinda like what Harry did when Maeve tried to seduce him in Summer Knight. Remember how Harry was never enticed by Bianca again after he saw the real Red Court Vamp behind her fleshmask? It was like that, I think. So the soulgaze was to shut off that line of thinking in his own head.

[g33k]

... I mean Ramírez knew that before the soulgaze (hence be pulled a knife on her pre-Soulgaze)...

Maybe he knew it, in his head.  But his hormones were screaming louder (it's what the Whamps do).

After the soulgaze, Carlos had a direct experience of the demon/phage, and what that meant.  He no longer merely "knew" what a WCV was, he felt it, in a visceral personal-experience manner.

Sorry, though, but this part:

... after the soulgaze he seems to be telling her that his guard is not up to dissuade her. 

I cannot parse this bit clearly.  I'm not sure what you're saying.

[Bad Alias]

After the soulgaze, Carlos had a direct experience of the demon/phage, and what that meant.  He no longer merely "knew" what a WCV was, he felt it, in a visceral personal-experience manner.

In a way that will never fade. He will always be able to experience it fresh if he ever needs reminding. I think this is probably similar to Harry having soulgazed Rasmussen and Ursiel then resisting a fallen's shadow longer than anyone ever had. It might be why he was able to do it.

[kbrizzle]

@Kindler & g33k
Agreed that Ramírez saw Lara’s demon & it will always a reminder to him to be cautious.

The part that is interesting about the exchange is the part I have highlighted in the OP. What does Ramírez mean when he tells Lara that “it wasn’t to dissuade you”??

[Bad Alias]

Carlos did it because he knew giving in was a bad idea, but he also knew that simply knowing in a rational way wasn't enough. He needed to know in a way that would prevent him from giving in to temptation.

[kbrizzle]

@Bad Alias
Agreed, but it seems like there was more going on under the surface.

Lara clearly likes Ramírez even more after the soul gaze, but Ramírez doesn’t just consider Lara to be an immoral vampire - he seems to respect her more after the soul gaze & maybe even realizes that she is trying to help him better navigate the Whamp Court by playing the come hither at him instead just being a succubus, perhaps that’s why he wasn’t trying to dissuade her with his knife?

[g33k]

... The part that is interesting about the exchange is the part I have highlighted in the OP. What does Ramírez mean when he tells Lara that “it wasn’t to dissuade you”??

Ahhhh!  Yes, I see.

I think the understanding comes with particular spoken emphases (or an understanding of that quote being a partial sentence with an implied/unspoken 2nd half):

It wasn't to dissuade YOU

=OR=

It wasn't to dissuade you (it was to dissuade me).

Lara doubtless understood what it would be like for Carlos to have seen her soul as she saw his, how much a true vision of the demon would "dissuade" him.  Hence, her remarking that he was wise (to have "innoculated" himself).

[peregrine]

Bingo.  It was meant to dissuade himself, not Lara.

[g33k]

...

Lara clearly likes Ramírez even more after the soul gaze, but Ramírez doesn’t just consider Lara to be an immoral vampire - he seems to respect her more after the soul gaze & maybe even realizes that she is trying to help him better navigate the Whamp Court by playing the come hither at him instead just being a succubus, perhaps that’s why he wasn’t trying to dissuade her with his knife?

He WAS trying to disuade her with his knife.  But, whamps being whamps, Carlos was teetering on the edge anyhow.

Carlos initiates the soulgaze to stiffen his own spine.

Lara mistakes it as another attempt to dissuade her (the knife's not working! try magic!), not realizing that Carlos was using it to rebuild his own defenses against whamps, instead of as a weapon/threat against her.

Afterwards, they each come away with the soulgaze-granted understandings of one another, including his, that her word is good.  So yeah, he "respects" her more, even as he understands that she is basically cooperating with the inhuman monster inside of her.

[kbrizzle]

@g33k & peregrine
That makes the most sense