How often does Harry's withholding of information actually get people hurt...

[Bad Alias]

[1.] In the book the only one who gets close is Listens To Wind. ... [2.] I think we are in the same Church, but in different pews.

1. I'd say Harry got close on the island. 2. That's clever. I like it and will steal it at the first opportunity.

[morriswalters]

What would your moral ground be like if you left a gun out where a child could get it, with no more protection for the child  then your assertion to the child that the gun was dangerous and they should leave it be?  If you hesitate before you answer, don't have kids.  They have no agency, they can't be responsible.  Children die every year because parents fail to understand this.

You will probably not agree with me when I assert that Kim had no agency in this matter.  She simply wasn't experienced enough with magic to gauge her capabilities.  This will arise again when he takes on Molly as an apprentice.  In Turn Coat Molly will attempt to use mind magic on Luccio. And it is only because Morgan chooses to take that knowledge to the grave that Molly and Harry don't lose their heads.  And Molly knew she was under the Doom of Damocles.  In other words Harry and the Council put the gun on the table and told her not to touch it.

Kim heard Harry say, you aren't able to and shouldn't do this.  Because it was important to her she attempted to do so irregardless.  But she was evidently unable to  correctly judge her level of knowledge.  This is why humans under the age of 30 typically pay more for car insurance.  Harry had assumed the role of teacher to help her when she came into her magic.  He failed in the obligation he assumed.  As a moral agent he has to accept that he has failed. One purpose of guilt and remorse is to keep you from repeating those failures.

1. I'd say Harry got close on the island. 2. That's clever. I like it and will steal it at the first opportunity.

Feel free, I stole it from someone else.

[Mira]

Kim heard Harry say, you aren't able to and shouldn't do this.  Because it was important to her she attempted to do so irregardless.  But she was evidently unable to  correctly judge her level of knowledge.  This is why humans under the age of 30 typically pay more for car insurance.  Harry had assumed the role of teacher to help her when she came into her magic.  He failed in the obligation he assumed.  As a moral agent he has to accept that he has failed. One purpose of guilt and remorse is to keep you from repeating those failures.

Except you are asking too much....    You are omitting Kim's failure to be honest with Harry as to why she wanted to know how to make this circle..  Kim is young, but she was an adult, not a child..  One of the things that pissed her off is Harry was close to her age and he knew how make it and she didn't.. 

What would your moral ground be like if you left a gun out where a child could get it, with no more protection for the child  then your assertion to the child that the gun was dangerous and they should leave it be?  If you hesitate before you answer, don't have kids.  They have no agency, they can't be responsible.  Children die every year because parents fail to understand this.

Poor analogy...   As a parent you keep the guns locked up, however if your child should ask how a gun works, you answer as best you can, also conveying that they can kill, with the assumption that your child isn't going to get his or her hands on a gun, at least not in your house.... You cannot be responsible for what the other parents do in their houses... So if you kid goes to his friends house thinking he knows how to shoot a gun that was left out just because you answered his questions.. Does that make you responsible? Or the the parents of his friend?  Or might your kid have grabbed and shot the gun anyway even if you had refused to tell him anything about how a gun worked.... Or possible, because you gave some information adding how dangerous they were, your kid doesn't touch it, but the other kid does and he still dies...

You will probably not agree with me when I assert that Kim had no agency in this matter.  She simply wasn't experienced enough with magic to gauge her capabilities.  This will arise again when he takes on Molly as an apprentice.  In Turn Coat Molly will attempt to use mind magic on Luccio. And it is only because Morgan chooses to take that knowledge to the grave that Molly and Harry don't lose their heads.  And Molly knew she was under the Doom of Damocles.  In other words Harry and the Council put the gun on the table and told her not to touch it.

Doesn't work, Molly knows perfectly well what she is capable of, that is why she does the mind magic on Luccio.  Her motives might have been good, but she was well aware that she was breaking one of the Seven Laws by doing so... She simply chose to disregard them..

Kim heard Harry say, you aren't able to and shouldn't do this.  Because it was important to her she attempted to do so irregardless.  But she was evidently unable to  correctly judge her level of knowledge.  This is why humans under the age of 30 typically pay more for car insurance.  Harry had assumed the role of teacher to help her when she came into her magic.  He failed in the obligation he assumed.  As a moral agent he has to accept that he has failed. One purpose of guilt and remorse is to keep you from repeating those failures.

I disagree, she knew perfectly well what she was doing...  That is why she repeatedly lied to Harry about what she wanted the information for.  She may have misjudged her capabilities, but she wasn't innocently asking Harry academic questions for the sake of knowledge... She was using him trying to trick him into passing on restricted knowledge to her.   Actually the irresponsible thing for him to do would be to give her the whole how to..   She wasn't even an apprentice and a little knowledge is dangerous, especially is she got tempted by the dark...

[kbrizzle]

@morriswalters

I think that one of the central themes of the series, a leitmotif even, is agency & free will. Kim freely made a decision to do something that her ‘teacher’ disagreed with - she is an adult & nearly Harry’s age, so I don’t agree at all that she has no agency.... I mean isn’t it Kim’s fault for doing this?? Clearly she was going to do it regardless of what Harry said, so I don’t see why Harry gets the blame for her death.

She freely made the choice to perform the ritual binding circle, even when Harry tells her she isn’t up to it. Your argument is that Harry should’ve somehow known that Kim was going to defy him with disastrous consequences & that he should interfere with a freely made decision by another who doesn’t really want his help beyond a few “theoretical” questions.

If your answer is that yes he should’ve abrogated her free will because he feels like she is in danger - note how Murphy responds every time he does this - it is her decision to be involved & not Harry’s. Harry also keeps a fair amount of secrets from Murphy, especially in the early books.

[morriswalters]

Kim freely made a decision to do something that her ‘teacher’ disagreed with - she is an adult & nearly Harry’s age, so I don’t agree at all that she has no agency.... I mean isn’t it Kim’s fault for doing this??

I'm not assessing fault. Were I, in the story, it would be the FBI agents.  What I keep suggesting is that Harry bears a moral responsibility for what happens.  He chose to teach Kim some things about magic.  Nobody made him.  We are told that magic is dangerous.  Had he not taught Kim anything about magic she couldn't have done anything.  And had he said nothing about the diagram on the paper, she couldn't have tried to use it. 

It's possible in the course of this discussion that I have moved the goalposts to some degree or another.  If I have then I offer everyone an apology.  I don't think so but this has drug on long enough that I'm losing the thread.

Your argument is that Harry should’ve somehow known that Kim was going to defy him with disastrous consequences & that he should interfere with a freely made decision by another who doesn’t really want his help beyond a few “theoretical” questions.

I'll make a stronger statement, the text tells you he doesn't believe her.

“And you wouldn’t need it if you weren’t planning on trying to stick a tiger in there.”

If your answer is that yes he should’ve abrogated her free will because he feels like she is in danger - note how Murphy responds every time he does this - it is her decision to be involved & not Harry’s. Harry also keeps a fair amount of secrets from Murphy, especially in the early books.

Not telling her what the diagram represents, is not abrogating her free will.

@Mira
I know Kim was lying.  My great grandchild would have known Kim was lying.  And Harry pretty much knew but he was evidently starving.

I didn't offer an analogy, I offered a hypothetical regarding morals and ethics.  If you intend to keep guns you should teach your kids and you should safe your guns.  Any failure to do so could get you locked up if your child kills themselves or someone else.  Which happens all to frequently.

Molly knows better but she does so anyway.  So if a threat of a death penalty and Harry's constant carping doesn't stop her why would anything stop Kim, who compared to Molly is a kindergartner?

[forumghost]

I mean if you want to use Gun safety as an analogy, then Harry was absolutely cooperative, when Kim was asking things like "How does gunpowder work?" or "What does the hammer do?" But when Kim asked him "Btw, hypothetically, how would I switch off the safety?" At which point he said (fairly reasonably) "Yeah no, I'm not telling you that, you don't know how not to shoot yourself."

Then Kim went out, bought a gun, and shot herself.

All Harry told her was 'this is what each part of the Circle is for'. Given that she'd obviously copied it from Macfinn's place, she knew that (at least generally). Nothing that Harry told her that day would have aided her in using it (which is why he feels guilty- because 'maybe if I'd told her how to perform this advanced brain-surgery procedure she'd have done it right, despite her being a year-one Med student').

TLDR: Kim killed herself because of her own Ego and her refusal to talk to Harry about what she was doing properly, despite it being obviously beyond her experience. Harry blames himself because he has a guilt complex, in particular with regards to women being hurt (Thanks Elaine)

[123Chikadee]

Mr. Death: Telling someone that the supernatural is dangerous is not the same as telling them how it's dangerous.

Which is why I think Harry could do a bit more to impress on people how dangerous the supernatural is. I do agree that  each of these scenarios are not clear cut, but I do think Harry could stand to be more open, but he's being a product of his wizard environment with secret keeping-

Hm, you know something just occurred to me. Harry had deep down still thought the White Council was right to keep secrets, even as he was trying to rebel by being an openly practicing wizard.  This could be why his attempts to both shield and inform his friends end so badly. Its less that I think that Harry is at fault in a actions-consequences type of way. More in an attitude way.

Though I think I'll handle the Susan  one first. Honestly, the thing that bothers me the most is the fact that it's a text book example of the 'Idiot Plot'. In order for the war to get kicked off, Susan has to think that gatecrashing a vampire party is a good idea. It sticks out at me as really contrived and it's easily one of the weakest spots in JB's writing. I kinda understand why she was dismissive of Harry, as he was sexist at the time and that would have effected her. I know that as audience members we get that the supernatural is dangerous but sometimes characters don't know all that they should know.  Though if I'm honest, I never liked Susan anyway.

With the Alphas, It's even more murky than Susan's scenario. The only thing that I think could have helped would have been not to lead the Skinwalker to the Alphas, but where else would he have gone to? I have no idea.  I'm with Bad Alias on why the scenario works from a Doylist angle and I do think the Alphas could have done better to defend themselves since they were so ill-prepared to handle it. They didn't take into account Harry's state when he got there and they should have. Unfortunately, Harry did have some contributions to that by treating the Alphas like kids. Even if the Alphas wouldn't be able to do anything against a Skinwalker, but hey at least it could help somehow.

As for Kim, yeah I think Harry could have down more. I think huangjimmy108 made a really good point about comparing a traffic police officer to Harry. I hadn't ever thought of it that way and that's a pretty helpful way of putting it, since this one Harry is a bit more culpable in the sense that Harry could have done more. Barring all that, I do think that Harry takes too much on himself.

I think that might be it for me. I'm not too sure what else I can say, but anyone is welcome to respond.

[morriswalters]

I mean if you want to use Gun safety as an analogy, then Harry was absolutely cooperative, when Kim was asking things like "How does gunpowder work?" or "What does the hammer do?" But when Kim asked him "Btw, hypothetically, how would I switch off the safety?" At which point he said (fairly reasonably) "Yeah no, I'm not telling you that, you don't know how not to shoot yourself."

Then Kim went out, bought a gun, and shot herself.

All Harry told her was 'this is what each part of the Circle is for'. Given that she'd obviously copied it from Macfinn's place, she knew that (at least generally). Nothing that Harry told her that day would have aided her in using it (which is why he feels guilty- because 'maybe if I'd told her how to perform this advanced brain-surgery procedure she'd have done it right, despite her being a year-one Med student').

TLDR: Kim killed herself because of her own Ego and her refusal to talk to Harry about what she was doing properly, despite it being obviously beyond her experience. Harry blames himself because he has a guilt complex, in particular with regards to women being hurt (Thanks Elaine)

What I asked was what Moral obligation did Harry incur for someone he had chosen to help learn about magic?  I gather from the answers to this point the answer is he incurred no obligation at all. So that pretty much is that.

In terms of what she knew about the circles?  Going in she knew nothing more then what the circle as a whole did.  Going out she knew what each individual ring did.  In my argument it doesn't really matter.  You have to assume that when Harry started to teach her she didn't know Jack.  Had he not chosen to bring her into supernatural society she would have been just another stranger on the street and the circle would have been just another pretty picture.

[Bad Alias]

If you have guns and kids (really, other people in general regardless of age) in the same house, you should teach them gun safety. What constitutes gun safety varies depending on the age, but most kids who can talk in complete sentences can learn the rules of gun safety. You should also keep your guns secure. Even the best kids are disobedient little whatsits at times.

There are two common formulations of the basic rules of gun safety. The NRA's three rules (with additional rules), https://gunsafetyrules.nra.org/, and "the Four Rules of Gun Safety" that I believe are attributed to Lt. Col. Jeff Cooper, https://www.hunter-ed.com/gun-safety/.

@123Chickadee: For the record, I'm not a big fan of Doylist interpretation because I think the text should make sense regardless of what the author is trying to do. I think this is why I've always hated Hollywood's moralizing but am fine with things like Aesop's fables. Aesop was competent at teaching a lesson in an obvious, but not clumsy, way. Hollywood fails more often than not.

@Morris: Harry does incur some moral obligations in being able to teach someone about magic before he even makes a decision. In this world, if he doesn't teach them anything, they are likely to try the "Jedi mind trick" and then it's too late. So, I think his minimal moral obligation is to say "these are the rules; if you break them, scary people will come and kill you." If he does anymore than that, it gets complicated fast. Magic is dangerous. He first has to teach the student how to not accidentally cause harm. Then he has to teach them a bunch of other stuff, all the while teaching them either obedience or trust, preferably, both. That's where he failed with Kim. She was neither obedient nor trustful towards Harry. Magic is "serious business." When you're teaching "serious business" to someone, there needs to be a relationship of trust and obedience. That's why it's a master and apprentice relationship. And when that relationship doesn't exist, and both parties are adults, then the fault isn't necessarily on the teacher.

Harry basically says "this is dangerous, do not do it." Kim neither trusted nor obeyed. We don't know enough about their relationship to say who has what proportion of blame, but Kim did come to him. That alone is an admission that Harry knows more than her. But this isn't a failure of withholding information. It's a failure of giving too much information before establishing the ground rules, if anything.

To get back to the guns analogy, it's kind of like teaching you the gun safety rules, the mechanics of shooting, and stopping at that. Just about no one seems capable of keeping the muzzle pointed in a safe direction at first on a range. I have to stay on top of them and watch everything they do. Providing information isn't enough. Maybe providing more information would have worked for Kim, but Harry shouldn't have given her anymore information. It's a summoning circle. If it's primary purpose was binding things already here, it would be called a binding circle. As she is clearly lying about her intentions, Harry shouldn't help her because she's probably trying to summon some terrible being. He should probably have contacted Morgan about it, but obviously never would have because of Morgan's behavior (an example of bad police work, there).

[KurtinStGeorge]

I'm late to this discussion, so if someone has already mentioned this incident, I apologize, but it seems to me there is one time when Harry withholding information has led to someone getting hurt and it's in Storm Front and it's not Linda Randall.

"Don't make me choose, Harry." Her voice softened, if not her eyes or her face. "Please."

I thought about it. I could bring everything to her. That's what she was asking - not half the story, not part of the information. She wanted it all. She wanted all the pieces in front of her so she could puzzle them together and bring the bad guys in. She didn't want to work the puzzle knowing that I was keeping some of the pieces in my pocket.

What could it hurt? Linda Randall had called me earlier that evening. She had planned on coming to me, to talk to me. She was going to give me some information and someone had shut her up before she could.

I saw two problems with telling Murphy that. One, she would start thinking like a cop. It would not be hard to find out that Linda wasn't exactly a high-fidelity piece of equipment. That she had numerous lovers on both sides of the fence. What if she and I were closer than I was admitting? What if I'd used magic to kill her lovers in a fit of jealous rage and then waited for another storm to kill her, too? It sounded plausible, workable, a crime of passion - Murphy had to know that the DA would have a hell of a time proving magic as a murder weapon, but if it had been a gun instead, it would have flown.

The second problem, and the one that worried me a lot more, was that there were already three people dead. And if I hadn't gotten lucky and creative, there would have been two more dead people, back at my apartment. I still didn't know who the bad guy was. Telling Murphy what little more I knew wouldn't give her any helpful information. It would only make her ask more questions, and she wanted answers.

If the voice in the shadows knew that Murphy was heading the investigation to find him, and was on the right track, he would have no qualms about killing her, too. And there was nothing she could do to protect herself against it. She might have been formidable to your average criminal, but all the aikido in the world wouldn't do her any good against a demon.

Then, too, there was the White Council. Men like Morgan and his superiors, secure in their own power, arrogant and considering themselves above the authority of any laws but their own, wouldn't hesitate to remove one police lieutenant who had discovered the secret world of the White Council.

I looked at the bloodstained sheets and thought of Linda's corpse. I thought of Murphy's office, and what it would look like with her sprawled on the floor, her heart torn from her chest, or her throat torn out by some creeping thing from beyond.

"Sorry, Murph," I said. My voice came out in a rasping whisper. "I wish I could help you. I don't know anything useful." I didn't try to look up at her, and I didn't try to hide that I was lying.

So Harry trying to protect Murphy led to her treating him as a suspect.  It led to Murphy searching Harry's office because she didn't have the information she needed and I'm certain you will all remember, it led to Murphy getting stung by Victor Sells ever growing scorpion construct or demon.  (Whatever it was.)

Now it could be argued that Murphy sometimes makes questionable to bad decisions, but I see that more in Fool Moon than in Storm Front.  Murphy's view of supernatural world in Storm Front is like someone looking through a keyhole rather than a nice large window and Harry tries to keep it that way; and though Harry does it mostly to protect Murphy, it backfires instead.

[nadia.skylark]

What would your moral ground be like if you left a gun out where a child could get it, with no more protection for the child  then your assertion to the child that the gun was dangerous and they should leave it be?  If you hesitate before you answer, don't have kids.  They have no agency, they can't be responsible.  Children die every year because parents fail to understand this.

A large part of the reason that children can't be considered responsible is actually their lack of physical brain development. They literally lack the equipment for the kind of decision-making that adults do. This, obviously, is not true of Kim.

I'm not assessing fault. Were I, in the story, it would be the FBI agents.  What I keep suggesting is that Harry bears a moral responsibility for what happens.

Can you please define how you are using the words "fault"/"guilt" and "responsibility"? Because you appear to be using them to mean different things, but the definition I found and posted says they're synonyms. As a result, I am not understanding what you are saying when you treat them as having different meanings.

Molly knows better but she does so anyway.  So if a threat of a death penalty and Harry's constant carping doesn't stop her why would anything stop Kim, who compared to Molly is a kindergartner?

I'm reasonably certain that the books explicitly say that black magic is addictive. As such, Molly's actions can in no way be compared to Kim's, since Molly is acting as an addict with her drug and Kim is not.

[123Chikadee]

@BadAlias: Oh, I do too. It's just with me, I can see what it is that the author wants alongside with the audience part of my brain, so it just leaps out at me. It can get a little irritating, so yeam I'm with yeah on that count.

[morriswalters]

In philosophy, moral responsibility is the status of morally deserving praise, blame, reward, or punishment for an act or omission performed or neglected in accordance with one's moral obligations.[1][2] Deciding what (if anything) counts as "morally obligatory" is a principal concern of ethics.

Culpability, or being culpable, is a measure of the degree to which an agent, such as a person, can be held morally or legally responsible for action and inaction. It has been noted that the word, culpability, "ordinarily has normative force, for in nonlegal English, a person is culpable only if he is justly to blame for his conduct".[1] Culpability therefore marks the dividing line between moral evil, like murder, for which someone may be held legally responsible and a randomly occurring event, like earthquakes, for which no human can be held responsible.

Guilt is a cognitive or an emotional experience that occurs when a person believes or realizes—accurately or not—that they have compromised their own standards of conduct or have violated a universal moral standard and bear significant responsibility for that violation.[1] Guilt is closely related to the concept of remorse.

A large part of the reason that children can't be considered responsible is actually their lack of physical brain development. They literally lack the equipment for the kind of decision-making that adults do. This, obviously, is not true of Kim.

Can you please define how you are using the words "fault"/"guilt" and "responsibility"? Because you appear to be using them to mean different things, but the definition I found and posted says they're synonyms. As a result, I am not understanding what you are saying when you treat them as having different meanings.

I'm reasonably certain that the books explicitly say that black magic is addictive. As such, Molly's actions can in no way be compared to Kim's, since Molly is acting as an addict with her drug and Kim is not.

In order.
Brain development may not be complete until your middle 20's. I'm not going to support that. The subject is too complex.
The three quotes above give you a sketch of the ideas I'm discussing.
It's an easy out to rate Molly as an addict.  You, are in effect removing her agency, her ability to act as a moral agent.

Moral agency is an individual's ability to make moral judgments based on some notion of right and wrong and to be held accountable for these actions.[1] A moral agent is "a being who is capable of acting with reference to right and wrong."[2]

If she's an addict then she must not be capable of doing the right thing.

[nadia.skylark]

It's an easy out to rate Molly as an addict.  You, are in effect removing her agency, her ability to act as a moral agent.

If she's an addict then she must not be capable of doing the right thing.

Addicts are capable of fighting their addiction; it's just difficult.

I brought up the addiction thing specifically in response to your claim that, since Molly violated the terms of her parole even though the consequence of doing so was death, then no consequence would be sufficient to prevent Kim from doing what she did. However, this is comparing apples to oranges. Molly is a recovering addict falling off the wagon. Kim is a college student who decides to shoplift because she doesn't want to admit to her parents that she needs money. The situations are not at all the same, and consequences that the addict will ignore can and frequently will be enough to prevent the college student from doing things.

[Bad Alias]

I'm late to this discussion, so if someone has already mentioned this incident, I apologize, but it seems to me there is one time when Harry withholding information has led to someone getting hurt and it's in Storm Front and it's not Linda Randall.

So Harry trying to protect Murphy led to her treating him as a suspect.  It led to Murphy searching Harry's office because she didn't have the information she needed and I'm certain you will all remember, it led to Murphy getting stung by Victor Sells ever growing scorpion construct or demon.  (Whatever it was.)

Now it could be argued that Murphy sometimes makes questionable to bad decisions, but I see that more in Fool Moon than in Storm Front.  Murphy's view of supernatural world in Storm Front is like someone looking through a keyhole rather than a nice large window and Harry tries to keep it that way; and though Harry does it mostly to protect Murphy, it backfires instead.

I believe I mentioned it, but put the consequences even further back. Murphy would have understood why Harry didn't want to do the research. He could have gone to Bianca's with Murphy and Carmichael. This would have prevented the whole plot line leading to Grave Peril. Harry wouldn't have been in the situation in which he gets jumped at the gas station and had to confront Marcone head on starting the rumors that he worked for Marcone, and that would have lead to Harry working more with S.I. because the I.A. investigation wouldn't have stopped Murphy from hiring him. Then he would have been in on the werewolf investigation earlier in a less desperate situation. On the other hand, he wouldn't have cleared himself of the Doom either. Morgan would constantly be over his shoulder looking for an excuse to kill him, and maybe he would have found one. The Grave Peril plot line wouldn't develop. The war with the Reds would have been delayed until a time when the Reds were more prepared. Mab would never have gotten Harry's debt because Bianca would have never given the athame to Lea. Harry wouldn't be forced into the role he had in Summer Knight and there would have been a disaster in the Faerie Courts that was probably worse than what was described in the books based on WoJ about what would have happened if Summer power was dumped into Winter. It could have theoretically lead to the end of existence. If everyone has survived to this point, would Harry have known Michael and gotten involved with the Denarians? Would he have survived if he had without the help of a half turned Susan? Would Harry have developed a good enough relationship with Thomas to keep Lord Raith from killing him? Would Mavra have been in a position to blackmail Harry to stop a dark god from arising?

Basically, the mistakes made in Storm Front set up Grave Peril which sets up the rest of the series in which Harry plays a big role in stopping an apocalypse every two to three years. Now Harry has a way finding trouble and it has a way of finding him, so maybe he still would have been a central figure in all these (or likely somewhat different) events and things would have turned out better. Who knows? And that's the point about sharing information in the DF that Harry eventually realizes. You can't predict the consequences of sharing information, so maybe you should let the people most likely to bear those consequences decide if they're willing to risk it.

@123Chikadee: Same, but I usually don't notice the Doylist reasons for why things are happening if the book, movie, etc. is well executed until after first consuming it because I was too busy being engrossed by the story. If I'm watching a movie and am impressed with anything technical (special effects, acting, cinematography, etc.), I feel like somebody messed up in the story telling.