How often does Harry's withholding of information actually get people hurt...

[Bad Alias]

@Morris: What, precisely, does that quote answer? It's reasons why Billy thinks he should be fully informed. He's not really even asking that Harry inform the Alphas of everything, only their leader. He's also stating that changing past actions could have, but not necessarily would have, changed the outcome. And as you said, what happened at the Raith mansion is pretty strong evidence that Harry could not have adequately prepared them for the attack.

[Mira]

@Morris: What, precisely, does that quote answer? It's reasons why Billy thinks he should be fully informed. He's not really even asking that Harry inform the Alphas of everything, only their leader. He's also stating that changing past actions could have, but not necessarily would have, changed the outcome. And as you said, what happened at the Raith mansion is pretty strong evidence that Harry could not have adequately prepared them for the attack.

However Kirby's death happened before the attack on the Raith mansion...   Harry had no clue until the aftermath of the attack that killed Kirby that it was a skinwalker..  At that point Harry didn't know that much himself about them except they were bad ass and looking at one with his wizard's sight made him nearly catatonic for an hour and half...  So basically when Kirby and company came to Harry's aid that first time he had no information to give beyond what he had... So again, as Will himself said, Kirby's death was not on Harry...  Keeping stuff back after that when he had more information is another story...  All of the above is in the text...  Saying that Harry owes them more information doesn't mean he blames him for Kirby's death... All Will is saying they have proven with Kirby's death that they are willing to lay it all on the line for him, and that the least Harry can do is give them all the information he has...

[Bad Alias]

All of the above is in the text...  Saying that Harry owes them more information doesn't mean he blames him for Kirby's death... All Will is saying they have proven with Kirby's death that they are willing to lay it all on the line for him, and that the least Harry can do is give them all the information he has...

I think it should be pretty clear that it isn't all in the text because you say the text says 1, I say it says 0, and Morris says it says -1. Either two of us are idiots, or there is room for interpretation.

I read Will's statement as Harry shouldn't be the one deciding for them whether or not they should be informed and take on the danger and responsibility of knowing.

[morriswalters]

The OP's question, how often does withholding information get people hurt, is answered explicitly in the text, at least for the Alphas.  Harry's strategy of keeping the Alphas in the dark to protect them, failed.  Kirby dies and Andi is badly injured.

I’d been careful to control what information he and the Alphas had gotten from me, in an effort to protect them. And it had worked—for a while.
But now things were different. Kirby’s death had seen to that.

This seems fairly straightforward.

@Mira
The point of bringing up the attack at Raith Manor is to point out that once Harry had led the skinwalker to the Alphas, that someone would die if the skinwalker wanted them dead.  The Alphas had not a chance in hell.  This is the nature of Harry's failure.  Harry as written, believed in two contradictory things, that he could protect them by keeping them in the dark and that he could use them without this eventually happening.

Fun facts.  Jim evidently is fond of beating us over the head with things by using them twice in a book. 

When the skinwalker kills the lights, Kirby uses his phone and is revealed by the light.  He uses this a second time when Peabody kills the lights and releases the mordite and everybody that creates lights, are killed.

In the second example, first Jim has Will complain about Harry keeping them in the dark and then has Harry complaining about the Council doing the same thing.

I think it should be pretty clear that it isn't all in the text because you say the text says 1, I say it says 0, and Morris says it says -1. Either two of us are idiots, or there is room for interpretation.

I read Will's statement as Harry shouldn't be the one deciding for them whether or not they should be informed and take on the danger and responsibility of knowing.

I volunteer as the idiot.

[Bad Alias]

1. Kirby died because Harry withheld information.
2. The skinwalker was going to kill Kirby no matter what Harry did.

I don't understand how anyone can agree with both statements. (I agree with statement two, mostly. The skinwalker killed Kirby as a message; therefore, it could have killed a different Alpha because Harry did something that lead to different results, but the skinwalker was definitely going to kill an Alpha if Harry went to Will's place).

I read the quote, mostly because I can't see how fully briefing Billy would have changed anything, as either Harry illogically blaming his withholding of information for Kirby's death or simply stating that Billy wasn't going to follow blindly because Kirby died. Kirby's death cements the seriousness of Will's role as leader for Will.

No one has demonstrated how Harry briefing Billy on the wider world of the supernatural could have saved Kirby. Until someone does that, I'm going to remain obstinate in my position that Harry's withholding of information did not get Kirby killed. I'll go so far as to say it is hypothetically possible, but that's it until someone can at least give me a hypothetical.

Even if in the text Billy said "Kirby is dead because you withheld information from us," and Dresden said "That is correct," I would still say "what" because, as you said, the skinwalker was going to kill whoever it wanted anyway.

How about instead, we take everyone's position, average them, and agree that I'm right? 

[g33k]

  ... How about instead, we take everyone's position, average them, and agree that I'm right?   

They say one of the hallmarks of a good compromise is that nobody is really satisfied with the outcome.





Ergo:  nobody is "right."
 

[Mira]

@Mira
The point of bringing up the attack at Raith Manor is to point out that once Harry had led the skinwalker to the Alphas, that someone would die if the skinwalker wanted them dead.  The Alphas had not a chance in hell.  This is the nature of Harry's failure.  Harry as written, believed in two contradictory things, that he could protect them by keeping them in the dark and that he could use them without this eventually happening.

No, the event with Kirby happened before that attack on Raith Manor... Biggest point Harry had no clue what is was he saw, it put him in a state of collapse when he showed up at Will and Georgia's house... Only after the first battle did he realize it was a skinwalker, and he told Will straight off....

1. Kirby died because Harry withheld information.

No, Harry had with held nothing, all he knew was it was big, bad, and so ugly it made him catatonic, he conveyed that information, the pack still backed him..

2. The skinwalker was going to kill Kirby no matter what Harry did

Most likely, only difference Kirby would have known what killed him when it did..

I don't understand how anyone can agree with both statements. (I agree with statement two, mostly. The skinwalker killed Kirby as a message; therefore, it could have killed a different Alpha because Harry did something that lead to different results, but the skinwalker was definitely going to kill an Alpha if Harry went to Will's place).

I read the quote, mostly because I can't see how fully briefing Billy would have changed anything, as either Harry illogically blaming his withholding of information for Kirby's death or simply stating that Billy wasn't going to follow blindly because Kirby died. Kirby's death cements the seriousness of Will's role as leader for Will.

No one has demonstrated how Harry briefing Billy on the wider world of the supernatural could have saved Kirby. Until someone does that, I'm going to remain obstinate in my position that Harry's withholding of information did not get Kirby killed. I'll go so far as to say it is hypothetically possible, but that's it until someone can at least give me a hypothetical.

Even if in the text Billy said "Kirby is dead because you withheld information from us," and Dresden said "That is correct," I would still say "what" because, as you said, the skinwalker was going to kill whoever it wanted anyway.

How about instead, we take everyone's position, average them, and agree that I'm right? 

Page 29, Harry is just coming out of his catatonic state at Will's house...

"What is it?" Billy asked quietly.
"I don't know," I said. "But it is real bad."  I glanced at Georgia.
"How long was I down?"
She checked her watch./  "Eighty-two minutes."

page 33 Just after Kirby died..

Billy looked up at me, Kirby's blood all over his face and hand.
"What is it, Harry?"
"A Native American nightmare,"  I said, I looked at him grimly, "A skinwalker."

Then on page 35

"What are you going to do?"
"Find out why it's here," I said.  "There's Council business afoot.  Christ, I didn't mean to bring you into this."  I stared toward the knot of officers around Kirby's corpse.  "I didn't mean for this to happen."
"Kirby was an adult, Desden,"Billy said.  "He knew what could happen.  He chose to be here."
Which was the truth.  But it didn't help.  Kirby was still dead.I hadn't known what a skinwalker was before, beyond something awlful, but that didn't change things..

The attack on Raith Manner didn't happen until page 180... So how could have Harry used that information to warn the Alphas about the skinwalker that he had run into back on page 20 something that he only knew was bad, ugly, and dangerous, no name?  When as we saw back on page 33 he just found out was a skinwalker and Kirby was already dead!  Since Harry had no clue what the big bad ugly thing was how did was he deceptively leading the Alphas to it?

page 219.... Will tells Harry he had talked to Kirby's folks....

I sighed.  "I'm sorry."
He shrugged.  "Kirby knew the risks.  He'd rather have died than stand by and do nothing..

It is a little further down when Harry says...

I nodded.  "It's part of something bigger I cannot talk about everything that is going on. 

That is when Will becomes unglued, he does say perhaps if they knew more, maybe Kirby would still be alive... However he knows perfectly well as we the readers know Harry didn't know what it was they were going up against when Kirby died back on page 33... And even if he knew, Kirby and company would still have been there for Harry..

[morriswalters]

@Mira
The attack at Raith Manor reflects the attack on the Alphas.  The point, to me, is to show this isn't about how Kirby could be saved.  It's about showing that Harry's strategy isn't working. See below.

1. Kirby died because Harry withheld information.
2. The skinwalker was going to kill Kirby no matter what Harry did.

Yeah I'm having trouble with people seeing this point.

I assert the second to disprove the first.  Harry's strategy is what failed. He held incompatible beliefs.
 
1)The first belief was that there was safety in ignorance.
2)The second that he could involve them without exposing them to what he said he was trying to protect them from.

Harry denies them the ability to exercise informed consent.  It isn't about changing the outcome, it's about Wills right to make his own judgement about what is best for his pack and how best to move. 

Maybe if we’d had a better idea about what’s actually going on in the world, it would have changed how we approached things.

They say one of the hallmarks of a good compromise is that nobody is really satisfied with the outcome.

Ergo:  nobody is "right."
 

Particularly when you consider that the White God, by capricious whim can devastate a dearly held theory and crush all your dreams.

[Bad Alias]

No, Harry had with held nothing, all he knew was it was big, bad, and so ugly it made him catatonic, he conveyed that information, the pack still backed him..

Just to be clear, by stating the premise, I wasn't endorsing it.

@Morris: Okay, I see what you're saying and agree with your conclusion about Harry wrongly denying them informed consent. It's a little trickier than "informed consent" because I think, in the DF, people are incapable of making an informed decision about gaining knowledge. This applies to Harry as well. There are several situations in which he chooses knowledge knowing there are likely to be negative consequences and he has no way of knowing the kind or degree of those consequences. (His mother's gift, and the knowledge of the Outer Gates). But they can at least choose for themselves if they are willing to take the risk of knowledge or remain ignorant. Then again, how many of us are exercising informed consent when making medical decisions? I'm certainly not a physician. So maybe "informed consent" is the perfect analogy.

I think that there is truth there being safety in ignorance, but, like all things, it's not all to the good. There is danger in both knowledge and ignorance. "A little bit of knowledge is a dangerous thing," for example. I do believe that Harry can limit their danger by keeping them in the dark about certain things, that keeping them in the dark about other things would increase their danger, that it is very hard to tell the difference between the two, and it, at a certain point, shouldn't be Harry's choice.

I'm in complete agreement that it is all about Will choosing what risks, with regard to knowledge, that he is going to take as the leader of the Alphas, and not Harry.

Throughout the novels, we have seen the themes of information is power, sharing that power is a responsibility not to be taken lightly, and the third theme that I'm not quite certain how to word. The third theme involves that the responsibility for sharing information, which is power, isn't only on the person sharing. There is a point when it would be wrong to share information and a point when one should leave the decision to the recipients after warning them as best you can of the consequences. For an example, later in the series, Harry is keeping secrets from Karrin. She starts to get mad and confronts Harry. She says something like "you better not be doing this to protect me," and Harry responds along the lines of "no, I'm doing this to protect me." Then she is okay with it. She's okay with it because he isn't denying her agency.

I think a good example of this idea is Eb keeping the fact that Lord Raith murdered Margaret from Harry. If he had told Harry about it at any point before Harry's soulgaze with Thomas, Harry would have fought Raith and died. If he had refused to tell him about it in Blood Rites, Harry would have fought Raith in order to save Thomas and died. Eb was right to keep the information from Harry until Harry had the "insight" from his mother, but Eb never knew about the "insight." My point being that Eb couldn't know that the information was necessary for Harry's survival. Eb's reasons for withholding information were about as solid as they could have been and were still wrong.

[Mira]

Mira
The attack at Raith Manor reflects the attack on the Alphas.  The point, to me, is to show this isn't about how Kirby could be saved.  It's about showing that Harry's strategy isn't working. See below.

It is a poor comparison....  It doesn't fit because when Kirby was killed, all Harry knew was this big
ugly thing was following him and had him all screwed up..  Will's place was the closest where he found refuge... That is all he knew, he had no strategy because he himself didn't know what he was going up against except it was very bad....   He couldn't withhold what he didn't know, plain and simple..

The attack on the Raith mansion is when Luccio and Harry have an interview with Lara to find out if it is she who has hired someone to follow Dresden, also if she has anything to do with the framing of Morgan..  That is when the skinwalker attacks and leaves the necklace that belongs to Thomas hinting at a trade... He is also trying to get Lara to cooperate...  So far I see nothing in common with what happened to Kirby, or that withholding information on Harry's part would have made any difference at the mansion..

1)The first belief was that there was safety in ignorance.
2)The second that he could involve them without exposing them to what he said he was trying to protect them from.

However that isn't what happened when Kirby died...  What set Will off what Harry said he couldn't tell him what was really going down on the island.. Will countered that he has the right to know, which Harry agreed that he did..

Harry denies them the ability to exercise informed consent.  It isn't about changing the outcome, it's about Wills right to make his own judgement about what is best for his pack and how best to move.
Quote

From that stand point it is ALL Will's fault that Kirby died...  He is the one who called his pack to fight even though Harry was unable to give him any more information than he did about what they were up against...  End of story...

[morriswalters]

@Mira
I made that comparison to show that in a fight that Harry and the werewolves were outmatched.  There was no defense possible.  In the book the only one who gets close is Listens To Wind.

Okay, I see what you're saying and agree with your conclusion about Harry wrongly denying them informed consent. It's a little trickier than "informed consent" because I think, in the DF, people are incapable of making an informed decision about gaining knowledge.

The devil is in the details, but I think we are in the same Church, but in different pews.

[kbrizzle]

Saying that Harry is responsible for the death of Kirby is a bit like saying he is also responsible for HWWB killing the gas station attendant when Harry was 16....

I agree with @nadia, Mira & Bad Alias - Harry’s lack of sharing knowledge has not yet been the sole reason anyone dies in the series so far. In each of the deaths, there is definitely more culpability from the victims (less so in Kirby’s case granted) or the perpetrators. If anything, Harry’s withholding info is a smaller piece of the mosiac that explains the deaths of the 3 people being discussed, but it is in no way the sole or most important piece. 

That Harry feels it is does not make it so - as has been pointed out by Michael, Harry (like the WC) is sometimes arrogant to the point of idiocy. Just because Harry could have theoretically prevented something (with 20/20 hindsight), he feels like he should have done so & blames himself for not doing it. This is not rational....

[morriswalters]

Saying that Harry is responsible for the death of Kirby is a bit like saying he is also responsible for HWWB killing the gas station attendant when Harry was 16....

I agree with @nadia, Mira & Bad Alias - Harry’s lack of sharing knowledge has not yet been the sole reason anyone dies in the series so far. In each of the deaths, there is definitely more culpability from the victims (less so in Kirby’s case granted) or the perpetrators. If anything, Harry’s withholding info is a smaller piece of the mosiac that explains the deaths of the 3 people being discussed, but it is in no way the sole or most important piece. 

That Harry feels it is does not make it so - as has been pointed out by Michael, Harry (like the WC) is sometimes arrogant to the point of idiocy. Just because Harry could have theoretically prevented something (with 20/20 hindsight), he feels like he should have done so & blames himself for not doing it. This is not rational....

I don't think that at any point in this exchange that I said anything about Harry's feelings one way or the other.  Your first statement is comparing apples and oranges.  Harry has no secrets to keep at that point.  And in the books there are multiple layers of responsibility for everything that happens.  In this case the primary culprit is the skinwalker.

In terms of Kim Delaney.  In some of the tritest dialog in the books Harry worries about the obligation of the cost of the meal.

The bottom line was I was strapped for cash. I’d been eating ramen noodles and soup for too many weeks. The steaks Mac had prepared smelled like heaven, even from across the room. My belly protested again, growling its neolithic craving for charred meat.
But I couldn’t just go and eat the dinner without giving Kim the information she wanted. It’s not that I’ve never welshed on a deal, but I’ve never done it with anyone human—and definitely not with someone who looked up to me.

“Save it,” I told her. “You’re sitting on a tiger cage, Kim.” I thumped a finger on the paper for emphasis. “And you wouldn’t need it if you weren’t planning on trying to stick a tiger in there.”

I had done the right thing—even if she had trusted me to provide answers for her, as I had in the past, when teaching her to contain and control her modest magical talents. Even if she had trusted me to show her the answers she needed, to be her guide through the darkness.
I’d done the right thing.
Dammit.
My stomach was soured. I didn’t want any more of Mac’s delicious meal, steak or no steak. I didn’t feel like I’d earned it.

Obviously he doesn't really think he's done the right thing.  So he knows she will attempt it.  Obviously she has some idea about how to empower the circle since he has been working with her.  Major f****p.

And I abruptly understood Kim Delaney’s request. She had to have known Harley MacFinn, maybe through her environmental activism. She must have learned of his curse, and wanted to help him. When I had refused to help her, she had attempted to re-create the greater summoning circle upstairs in the bedroom, to hold in MacFinn once the moon rose. As I had warned her would happen, she had failed. She hadn’t had the knowledge necessary to understand how such a construct would function, and consequently, she hadn’t been able to make it work.
MacFinn had killed her. Kim was dead because I had refused to share my knowledge with her, because I hadn’t given her my help. I had been so secure in my knowledge and wisdom; withholding such secrets from her had been the action of a concerned and reasoned adult speaking to an overeager child. I couldn’t believe my own arrogance, the utter confidence with which I had condemned her to death.

So he had misgivings at Mac's and surprise, surprise, she dies.  So McFinn killed her, because the FBI agents destroyed his circle, because she made a bad choice, because she knew just enough to get her killed, and Harry could have said show me your problem and if I can I will help. Break any of those links in the chain and Kim doesn't die.  Harry was the last man standing who could have changed the outcome once the events were moving.  Harry's moral failure is in assuming responsibility for helping her, and then not doing so.

[Mira]

Quote

    And I abruptly understood Kim Delaney’s request. She had to have known Harley MacFinn, maybe through her environmental activism. She must have learned of his curse, and wanted to help him. When I had refused to help her, she had attempted to re-create the greater summoning circle upstairs in the bedroom, to hold in MacFinn once the moon rose. As I had warned her would happen, she had failed. She hadn’t had the knowledge necessary to understand how such a construct would function, and consequently, she hadn’t been able to make it work.
    MacFinn had killed her. Kim was dead because I had refused to share my knowledge with her, because I hadn’t given her my help. I had been so secure in my knowledge and wisdom; withholding such secrets from her had been the action of a concerned and reasoned adult speaking to an overeager child. I couldn’t believe my own arrogance, the utter confidence with which I had condemned her to death.

So he had misgivings at Mac's and surprise, surprise, she dies.  So McFinn killed her, because the FBI agents destroyed his circle, because she made a bad choice, because she knew just enough to get her killed, and Harry could have said show me your problem and if I can I will help. Break any of those links in the chain and Kim doesn't die.  Harry was the last man standing who could have changed the outcome once the events were moving.  Harry's moral failure is in assuming responsibility for helping her, and then not doing so.

No, Kim is dead because MacFinn killed her...  Kim is dead because she thought she could handle something that was way above her pay grade... She is dead because she didn't trust Harry enough to tell him the truth about why she wanted the knowledge in the first place.  Harry did help her, he began to answer her questions as an academic exercise... That is what she said she wanted... He asks her again and again, same answer.....  Kim is dead because she withheld knowledge from Harry.  Do you think for on moment he wouldn't have helped her if she actually told him why she needed the circle?   The answer is no, he would have helped her in a heart beat and maybe have died beside her..

Harry feels responsible because he gave her some knowledge but not all... However as he told her, she didn't have the training to pull it off... I can give you a book on how to fly a jet, but it takes a lot more than a how to book to actually do it..  So even if he gave all the information to her, most likely she still would have failed, if for no other reason she'b be trying to construct is under all kinds of pressure..  Harry beats himself up because of his arrogance thinking because he refused to give her forbidden knowledge she died... Yeah, it is arrogant thinking it was his fault..  It isn't, it was Kim's arrogance in not telling Harry the truth, very much like the same mistake Susan made, in spite the warnings from Harry she believes she can pull it off as easily as he, a full wizard could... After all how hard can it be?  How dangerous can a Loop really be?  MacFinn was herclient, she wasn't going to share either the fee nor the fame with Harry, so she withheld knowledge because she didn't want him butting in...  She refused to listen when Harry brought up training..  Training isn't the same as knowledge, it is about muscle memory and a lot of other things, she didn't have it to pull off such a thing as Harry had told her...  Her response was childish,"you think I don't have the juice..." because how hard can it be??

[Mira]

@Mira
I made that comparison to show that in a fight that Harry and the werewolves were outmatched.  There was no defense possible.  In the book the only one who gets close is Listens To Wind. The devil is in the details, but I think we are in the same Church, but in different pews.

Again, at the point when Kirby died, Harry had no clue what they were up against.... However by Will's own logic, that he is responsible for the safety of his pack, it is all his fault that Kirby died...  Will knew what it had done to Harry and more to the point he also knew that at that moment Harry couldn't or wouldn't give him more information about what was after him.... Will still called in his pack to face unknown danger.  End of story..   No, if there is responsibility to taken, it is on Will..

He isn't wrong about informed consent, that he is responsible for his people and they have to know what they are up against before they go in...  It is hard to say whether or not Kirby would have lived had they known and chose to still go in.. As you say a skinwalker was beyond all of them in the first place... However at that moment, none of them knew what it was, not Harry, not anyone.. Yet, Will called his team in and they elected to back Harry and fight..  Given his own sound logic, when Will told Harry that Kirby might have lived had they known more, Will was blaming himself, not Harry. Because it was Will's decision to send his team in blind..