How often does Harry's withholding of information actually get people hurt...

[Bad Alias]

To answer the original question, I think only once has Harry's withholding of information actually gotten people hurt. In this formulation, I take withholding to mean the willful and deliberate denial of information to others Harry is not trying to hurt. There are times when Harry hasn't shared information quickly enough either because it didn't occur to him or he just got the information too late, but never has his denial of information to people lead to injury with the exception of the Storm Front example from earlier. There are times when he was unable to impress the danger of certain situations onto people (Kim and Susan, mostly), but I see that as entirely their fault.

Mario Andretti: I wouldn't drive that fast. I'd fear for my safety if I was doing it.
Susan: Whatever you nancy.
Kim: You think I'm a bad driver!

[huangjimmy108]

What proactive action would you have him take? Remember, he's not a Warden--he has no authority to actually do anything to her.

1) You said that Harry "owns it." I assumed you meant that Harry feels guilty/responsible for what happened.

2) No, the Skinwalker was responsible for Kirby dying. It was the one who chose to take the job against Harry, to follow Harry, and to kill Kirby. Harry gave it the opportunity to kill Kirby by going to Will's house, but Harry is not responsible for Kirby's death any more than Will is for calling him for help.

There's no evidence of that. I had always believed that both Susan and Kim found Harry because they already believed in the supernatural.

Nope. Susan was already a paranormal reporter when she met Harry, and Kim met the Loup Garou (I forget his name) independently of Harry. None of that is on him.

And they don't need to to avoid the dangers they get into.

In both cases, Harry explicitly warns them that he's not sure he can handle the issue, actually.

See above regarding: Nope.

This.

I am not sure about Kim Deloney, but Susan is definitely drawn into the supernatural via Harry. She saw his advertisement and come to interview Harry. She trick Harry into a soulgaze and thus confirm the existence of the supernatural. She wouldn't have found Harry if not for the advertisement. She would not have trick Harry into a soulgaze if Harry did not proclaim in the advertisement that he is a real wizard.

[nadia.skylark]

o answer the original question, I think only once has Harry's withholding of information actually gotten people hurt. In this formulation, I take withholding to mean the willful and deliberate denial of information to others Harry is not trying to hurt. There are times when Harry hasn't shared information quickly enough either because it didn't occur to him or he just got the information too late, but never has his denial of information to people lead to injury with the exception of the Storm Front example from earlier. There are times when he was unable to impress the danger of certain situations onto people (Kim and Susan, mostly), but I see that as entirely their fault.

I would agree with this.

I am not sure about Kim Deloney, but Susan is definitely drawn into the supernatural via Harry. She saw his advertisement and come to interview Harry. She trick Harry into a soulgaze and thus confirm the existence of the supernatural. She wouldn't have found Harry if not for the advertisement. She would not have trick Harry into a soulgaze if Harry did not proclaim in the advertisement that he is a real wizard.

Did you actually read my response? Because I explicitly said that Susan was already involved in the supernatural world (albeit in a limited capacity) because she was a paranormal reporter. This is why she came to interview Harry. Harry, therefore, cannot be held responsible for her interacting with the supernatural world, because doing so was a natural hazard of her job, and she took that job before she ever knew Harry existed.

[huangjimmy108]

I would agree with this.

Did you actually read my response? Because I explicitly said that Susan was already involved in the supernatural world (albeit in a limited capacity) because she was a paranormal reporter. This is why she came to interview Harry. Harry, therefore, cannot be held responsible for her interacting with the supernatural world, because doing so was a natural hazard of her job, and she took that job before she ever knew Harry existed.

In this you are wrong. Susan has never touch the real supernatural stuff until she met Harry. What her tabloid covers are mostly BS. Scrap that, it is all BS. Susan would not get any othentic supernatural news from any other source aside from Harry.

[nadia.skylark]

In this you are wrong. Susan has never touch the real supernatural stuff until she met Harry. What her tabloid covers are mostly BS. Scrap that, it is all BS. Susan would not get any othentic supernatural news from any other source aside from Harry.

She's specifically going around investigating supernatural stuff. The laws of probability show that at some point, she's going to run into the real thing, regardless of whether Harry is advertising as a wizard or not.

Some examples of her getting involved investigating supernatural stuff unrelated to Harry:
-She was investigating three-eye before Harry even realized that it was a magical drug.
-I believe that part of the reason she asked Harry out on a date was that she was also investigating the magical murders happening in Storm Front.
-She started investigating the werewolf murders independently and parallel to Harry.

If Harry weren't around, she would still be investigating all these things, and things like them.

[huangjimmy108]

She's specifically going around investigating supernatural stuff. The laws of probability show that at some point, she's going to run into the real thing, regardless of whether Harry is advertising as a wizard or not.

Some examples of her getting involved investigating supernatural stuff unrelated to Harry:
-She was investigating three-eye before Harry even realized that it was a magical drug.
-I believe that part of the reason she asked Harry out on a date was that she was also investigating the magical murders happening in Storm Front.
-She started investigating the werewolf murders independently and parallel to Harry.

If Harry weren't around, she would still be investigating all these things, and things like them.

She snoops around, but she gotten nowhere.

I don't remember she investigate the 3 eye drug, but even if she does, I don't remember she gotten anywhere. The only time she has any contact with the matter is when she visits Harry in his apartment.

She heard about the serial murder case in book 2, but she would never gotten into anything until Harry call her for help.

Susan can never find the supernatural, because before she and Hary actually soulgaze, I doubt she really believes in the supernatural. She is just a tabloid reporter trying to find sensational news. Therefore, even her investigations over the 3 eye drug and the serial murder case in book 2 is prompted by her encounter with Harry, otherwise it wouldn't cross her mind that this things are truly supernatural in origin.

[nadia.skylark]

I don't remember she investigate the 3 eye drug, but even if she does, I don't remember she gotten anywhere. The only time she has any contact with the matter is when she visits Harry in his apartment.

Yes, she hadn't gotten anywhere. This is because A) She was focussing on Harry, which she wouldn't do if Harry wasn't involved; and B) Harry wrapped up the three-eye thing extremely quickly.

If Harry wasn't involved (and if he wasn't advertising as a wizard, he wouldn't be involved with police cases either) then the whole thing would have taken longer, and Susan would have been exploring different avenues--for example, poking around those connected to the victims of Victor Sells, like, say, Bianca.

(Also, if Harry wasn't involved, a lot more people would have died.)

She heard about the serial murder case in book 2, but she would never gotten into anything until Harry call her for help.

Really? I'd figure reporter tactic 101 would be to start talking to police officers and following them around, and I somehow don't think the FBI hexenwolves would take well to that.

Susan seems to have been following SI's cases in the first few books, so as long as SI was getting supernatural cases, Susan had a high chance of stumbling into something genuinely supernatural.

Susan can never find the supernatural, because before she and Hary actually soulgaze, I doubt she really believes in the supernatural. She is just a tabloid reporter trying to find sensational news. Therefore, even her investigations over the 3 eye drug and the serial murder case in book 2 is prompted by her encounter with Harry, otherwise it wouldn't cross her mind that this things are truly supernatural in origin.

Really? Because the book says that Harry's soulgaze of Susan showed that she was driven by a passion to find the truth, and between that and the fact that she's explicitly stated to be a good reporter who would be well-respected if not for the supernatural stuff, I had always thought that it was clear that Susan only got into paranormal reporting because she believed in the supernatural.

[morriswalters]

The shapeshifter is a force of nature.  While he delivered the blow, Harry was the cause.  He didn't go looking for the pack, he went looking for Harry.  And Jim through the way he writes Harry, seems to feel the same way.  In Cold Front in a bid to reduce possible collateral damage, he breaks in to Butters apartment to steal Bob rather then knocking and saying please.  Harry is a lightning rod and he owes it to everyone around him to explain the danger of standing near him in lightning storms.  After Turn Coat he's figured this out and all his allies are clued in.

From the Dresden Wiki.

She was part of the occult community of Chicago, and a young woman who Harry Dresden helped teach to control her magical talent.

Perhaps apprentice is too strong a word.

Dresden feels incredibly guilty over her death, and very responsible for not giving her enough data to make an informed decision.[2]  There are many parallels between her situation and Susan Rodriguez's later on. The early mistake with Delaney and Rodriguez undoubtedly made it so that he now has a more honest and open relationship with his later apprentice, Molly Carpenter.(reference needed)

I wish I had read this before I responded.  I would have quoted it then as it is simpler then what I wrote.

[nadia.skylark]

The shapeshifter is a force of nature.  While he delivered the blow, Harry was the cause.

No it isn't. The shapeshifter does not have free-will, but that only means that it cannot change its essential nature, ie it cannot suddenly decide not to torture people. It absolutely could have decided to, for example, kill Andi instead of Kirby, or to lurk outside Harry's apartment and kidnap his apprentice instead of following Harry, or to not take the job of dealing with Harry and Morgan in the first place and go torture people in Alaska.

And even if the Skinwalker is not responsible, I still don't see how that makes Harry completely responsible either. Here is the chain of events: Someone decides to hire the Skinwalker to go after Morgan; Morgan decides to go to Harry; Harry decides to help Morgan, and further to go to Will's house after he sees the Skinwalker; Will decides to let him in and call the rest of the pack; Kirby decides to come and to patrol. Why is it Harry's fault instead of the fault of Kirby, Will, Morgan, or whoever hired the Skinwalker?

And Jim through the way he writes Harry, seems to feel the same way.

Jim writes Harry as having a guilt complex and blaming himself for things that aren't his fault.

Harry is a lightning rod and he owes it to everyone around him to explain the danger of standing near him in lightning storms.

I'd like it noted that I feel uncomfortable with the claim that Harry owes it to people around him to explain everything, and I have a gut feeling that it's wrong. However, it's after 2am here, so I cannot find the words to explain why I feel that way. I may come back to this after I've gotten some sleep.

I know that the above paragraph is a crappy argument. Sorry about that.

[huangjimmy108]

Yes, she hadn't gotten anywhere. This is because A) She was focussing on Harry, which she wouldn't do if Harry wasn't involved; and B) Harry wrapped up the three-eye thing extremely quickly.

If Harry wasn't involved (and if he wasn't advertising as a wizard, he wouldn't be involved with police cases either) then the whole thing would have taken longer, and Susan would have been exploring different avenues--for example, poking around those connected to the victims of Victor Sells, like, say, Bianca.

(Also, if Harry wasn't involved, a lot more people would have died.)

Really? I'd figure reporter tactic 101 would be to start talking to police officers and following them around, and I somehow don't think the FBI hexenwolves would take well to that.

Susan seems to have been following SI's cases in the first few books, so as long as SI was getting supernatural cases, Susan had a high chance of stumbling into something genuinely supernatural.

Really? Because the book says that Harry's soulgaze of Susan showed that she was driven by a passion to find the truth, and between that and the fact that she's explicitly stated to be a good reporter who would be well-respected if not for the supernatural stuff, I had always thought that it was clear that Susan only got into paranormal reporting because she believed in the supernatural.

Susan has been following SI's cases, and if not for Harry medlling, Murphy and SI would have stonewall her and effectively so.

Susan would never get into anything big if not for Harry, that is in the unlikely case she could find anything at all. And it certain that she could not have known about the vampire party or forge an invitation in the firstplace if she is not Harry's girlfriend.

[morriswalters]

Why is it Harry's fault instead of the fault of Kirby, Will, Morgan, or whoever hired the Skinwalker?

I want you to attempt to see the difference between guilt and responsibility.  The Skinwalker is guilty of murder, Harry was the reason that Kirby got murdered.  The first is a crime, the second a failing.  The only penalty for the second is the death of your friends.  I gave you a direct quote from Billy that states this explicitly.

He nodded. “So. If I’d had this conversation with you sooner, maybe they wouldn’t be. Maybe if we’d had a better idea about what’s actually going on in the world, it would have changed how we approached things. They follow my lead, Harry. I(Billy) have a responsibility to make sure that I do everything in my power to make them aware and safe.”

Note that Billy doesn't say he can keep them alive, merely that he gives them the best chance at doing so.

[Mira]

The shapeshifter is a force of nature.  While he delivered the blow, Harry was the cause.  He didn't go looking for the pack, he went looking for Harry.  And Jim through the way he writes Harry, seems to feel the same way.  In Cold Front in a bid to reduce possible collateral damage, he breaks in to Butters apartment to steal Bob rather then knocking and saying please.  Harry is a lightning rod and he owes it to everyone around him to explain the danger of standing near him in lightning storms.  After Turn Coat he's figured this out and all his allies are clued in.

Hold it, you are blaming the potential victim for the crime..  Yes, Harry was the target, but his friends were merely in the wrong place at the wrong time..  That doesn't make it his fault, they chose to be with him.  Yes, he may feel some responsibility but that doesn't make it rational, which pushed him to do they type of thing he did to try an protect Butters..  Which is understandable, but not totally rational.

I'd like it noted that I feel uncomfortable with the claim that Harry owes it to people around him to explain everything, and I have a gut feeling that it's wrong. However, it's after 2am here, so I cannot find the words to explain why I feel that way. I may come back to this after I've gotten some sleep.

Same here, but whether or not Harry "owes" it to people to explain everything is a silly argument as you are trying to point out.  For one thing, I am almost though my first cup of coffee, anyway most of the time he cannot explain everything because he himself doesn't know everything at that moment...  He could try to explain to Billy and company about the Skinwalker, but they don't have
the sight so they cannot see it for what it really is..  They work as a pack so they think they are pretty bad ass and can fight above their weight class,  Harry when he takes refuge at Billy's place is nearly catatonic from what he had just witnessed...   

Yes, she hadn't gotten anywhere. This is because A) She was focussing on Harry, which she wouldn't do if Harry wasn't involved; and B) Harry wrapped up the three-eye thing extremely quickly.

She was coming on to Harry to get information, very true.. He allowed her to do it because he hadn't really been with a woman since Elaine...  However their first date nearly ended in tragedy because of the Frog Demon attack....  "Danger Will Robinson...."  Susan was a big girl, prides herself on being a smart one....  Her choice from then on out to continue with Harry or not...  She did fall in love with him, but she also was a moth attracted to a flame, knowing him and getting the information would make her career... She may have loved him, but in the end she used him, stealing that invitation wasn't an act of love..  You may think he owed her all the information he knew, but other than using it to expose things to the public that might get them killed, wouldn't have stopped her from going headlong into a nest of vipers for her career... None of that is Harry's fault, Susan made her choice and took her chances, she paid for it.

I am not sure about Kim Deloney, but Susan is definitely drawn into the supernatural via Harry. She saw his advertisement and come to interview Harry. She trick Harry into a soulgaze and thus confirm the existence of the supernatural. She wouldn't have found Harry if not for the advertisement. She would not have trick Harry into a soulgaze if Harry did not proclaim in the advertisement that he is a real wizard.

First of all, Susan wasn't drawn into the supernatural world because of Harry... She already worked for a paranormal rag... Upon her soul gaze with Harry she promptly fainted...  I've already stated what happened on their first date...  She knew very well from that point on just how dangerous hanging out with Harry could be...  She made her choices and decided the danger was worth the story and later the love..  Or part of her continued to deny the truth that this kind of knowledge could get her killed, or worse..  In spite of what she had witnessed and by Grave Peril she had witnessed plenty, she still chose to believe that Harry was exaggerating the dangers, and chose to steal that invitation... 

[morriswalters]

Hold it, you are blaming the potential victim for the crime..  Yes, Harry was the target, but his friends were merely in the wrong place at the wrong time..  That doesn't make it his fault, they chose to be with him.  Yes, he may feel some responsibility but that doesn't make it rational, which pushed him to do they type of thing he did to try an protect Butters.

I quoted Billy and what he thought about it, not Harry.

[Mira]

I quoted Billy and what he thought about it, not Harry.

Who knows in the emotion of the moment,  Billy is also the pack leader he feels responsibility for stuff as well...  Since he and Georgia were on the island for the showdown with the Skinwalker, he apparently didn't hold too much against Harry...

[nadia.skylark]

I want you to attempt to see the difference between guilt and responsibility.

Here's the definition I found on google:

re·spon·si·ble
adjective
being the primary cause of something and so able to be blamed or credited for it.
"the gene was responsible for a rare type of eye cancer"
synonyms:   accountable, answerable, to blame
antonyms:   guiltless

Also, could you please respond to the points I have made in response to this claim? I'll list the major ones:
1) the Skinwalker is responsible for its own actions
2) there are several people (the person who sent the Skinwalker, Billy, and Kirby) who are at least as responsible as Harry
3) Harry's actions regarding the sharing or not sharing of information about the supernatural world would not have made a difference, so therefore his lack of sharing information cannot be what makes him responsible
        3a) A general briefing about the supernatural world would not have included Skinwalkers, and for good reason
        3b) Harry was incapable of sharing any information from the time he used his Sight on the Skinwalker until he had recovered in Will's guest room

I quoted Billy and what he thought about it, not Harry.

And I responded by saying that Will was speaking from a place of ignorance, and admitted that. Therefore, he could not know whether the information Harry might have given him would have made a difference.