How often does Harry's withholding of information actually get people hurt...

[Mira]

   3b) Harry was incapable of sharing any information from the time he used his Sight on the Skinwalker until he had recovered in Will's guest room

He didn't even know what he had seen except it was real bad...  Page 28 Turn Coat..  Harry is recovering from seeing it, he had been down for 82 minutes...

"What is it?"  Billy asked quietly.
"I don't know," I said.  "But it is real bad."

Harry did ask Billy to call the pack together...  However he wasn't withholding any information because he didn't have any...  Just that it was bad enough to send him into a near catatonic state.. It should have been a holy shit moment for Billy to hold back protecting his pack until they got more information.. There was no more information to be had, except it was bad, ugly, and extremely dangerous.   For the record....
Billy DID NOT blame Harry for what happened to Kirby....  page 35 Turn Coat hardback

I stared toward the knot of officers around Kirby's corpse.  "I didn't mean for this to happen."
"Kirby was an adult, Dresden," Billy said. "He knew what could happen.  He chose to be here."

 

Harry knows that was true, but he still felt responsible, but then admitted he couldn't have known.. same page

I hadn't known what the skinwalker was before, beyond something awlful, but that didn't change anything.

Harry hadn't withheld any information before hand, he told Billy it was something very, very bad, no clue as to what it was he saw, except bad.  So bad it made him catatonic for over eighty minutes after seeing it with his sight... Billy knew that and still agreed to call his pack in..

Billy, now Will goes on to say to Harry....same page..

"You didn't know it was going to come down like that, man.  We all owe you our lives, Harry, I'm glad we got the chance to be there for you."

As Nadia says, whoever sent the skinwalker in the first place is the the blame, the real guilty party.. The skinwalker is a sadistic creature doing it's bidding, it enjoys it's job..  Neither Harry nor Billy nor any of the other of it's victims are the blame...  Will and his pack made a choice to back Harry, Kirby paid the ultimate price for doing that, but it was his choice... Even if they had understood it was a skinwalker and all that implied, would they have made the same choice?  Yeah, I think so...

[Bad Alias]

1. Susan was deeply enough involved in the supernatural to trick Harry into a soulgaze. Only after that did she focus on Harry as her best avenue into the supernatural world. She would have found another way as is shown by Valmont in Skin Game talking about how easy it was. If Harry didn't advertise, but did consult, she would have found him anyway. If he didn't consult with the police, she would have likely doggedly pursued a supernatural entity that wasn't as keen as Harry was on getting attention. It's actually good for Harry because it helps his business. Almost any other entity would have killed/eaten her for the attention.

2. Harry caused Kirby's death in Turn Coat. But for Harry going to Billy's, Kirby wouldn't have been involved. Harry being the "but-for" cause does not make him responsible, either legally or morally. Legally, being the cause in fact if necessary but not sufficient for culpability. I'd say it is the same for morally, but morality is infinitely debatable. That, however, has nothing to do with whether or not Kirby died because Harry withheld information from Billy. I agree with the arguments that he did not and don't think I've seen an argument other than "Billy said so" on the other side.

[morriswalters]

Here's the definition I found on google:
Also, could you please respond to the points I have made in response to this claim? I'll list the major ones:
1) the Skinwalker is responsible for its own actions
2) there are several people (the person who sent the Skinwalker, Billy, and Kirby) who are at least as responsible as Harry
3) Harry's actions regarding the sharing or not sharing of information about the supernatural world would not have made a difference, so therefore his lack of sharing information cannot be what makes him responsible
        3a) A general briefing about the supernatural world would not have included Skinwalkers, and for good reason
        3b) Harry was incapable of sharing any information from the time he used his Sight on the Skinwalker until he had recovered in Will's guest room

And I responded by saying that Will was speaking from a place of ignorance, and admitted that. Therefore, he could not know whether the information Harry might have given him would have made a difference.

1) Yes.  The Skinwalker murdered Kirby, he could hang or go to hell.
2) True.  So?
3) Billy disagrees. Since you can't read the future or JB's mind just how would you know that? And it is here that we find the crux of the problem.
3a)  Again you can't know that, since JB hasn't told you.  Billy assumes that in general more information is better, possibly not in specifics, but for judging the level of danger that is possible even if never encountered.  Since Billy makes it clear that he won't work with Harry if Harry isn't more open, then we can assume that Harry tells Billy enough to satisfy the conditions that Billy laid down..

3b)Read that line back to yourself and say.  "That is a failure of planning on Harry's part."

@Mira

“Billy,” I said quietly. “This isn’t stuff you can unlearn. Right now, you’re insulated from the worst of what goes on because you’re . . . I don’t want to be insulting, but you’re a bunch of amateurs without enough of a clue to be a real threat to anyone.”
His eyes darkened. “Insulated from the worst?” he asked in a quiet, dangerous voice. “Tell that to Kirby. Tell that to Andi.”

Obviously if he has been shielding then from the worst they can't of had any idea that something like the Skinwalker was a possibility.  And if that isn't clear then there is this.

I couldn’t treat him like a child anymore. Will was ignorant of the supernatural world beyond the fairly minor threats that lurked around the University of Chicago. He and the other werewolves had been kids who learned one really neat magic trick, almost ten years before. I hadn’t shared more with them, and the paranormal community in general is careful about what they say to strangers. He had, at best, only a vague idea of the scope of supernatural affairs in general, and he had not the first clue about how hot the water really was around me right now.

[nadia.skylark]

1) Yes.  The Skinwalker murdered Kirby, he could hang or go to hell.
2) True.  So?

So the point of this is that you can't say that Harry is solely, or even mostly, responsible for Kirby's death. Which is what you were saying, and which these points refute.

3) Billy disagrees. Since you can't read the future or JB's mind just how would you know that? And it is here that we find the crux of the problem.
3a)  Again you can't know that, since JB hasn't told you.  Billy assumes that in general more information is better, possibly not in specifics, but for judging the level of danger that is possible even if never encountered.  Since Billy makes it clear that he won't work with Harry if Harry isn't more open, then we can assume that Harry tells Billy enough to satisfy the conditions that Billy laid down..

I have already explained my logic in previous posts. I will quote it here:

As for Kirby, I just don't think that any amount of information would have helped him against a skinwalker in that scenario. He knew that he was going up against something both powerful and dangerous--I can't think how specifics would have stopped him getting ambushed. Furthermore, even if Harry had given the Alphas a briefing about the supernatural world (like the one he gave them after Kirby's death) earlier, it almost certainly wouldn't have contained information about the skinwalker, because 1) as I recall, Harry didn't know much about them himself; 2) they're extremely rare, and Harry had no reason to expect anyone to run into them; and 3) there are very good reasons not to talk about them, because being afraid of them actually makes them stronger.

He might have been more cautious. But A) he knew something super-bad might be out there already, because Will and Georgina had seen the state that Harry arrived in; and B) so long as he was out patrolling at all, the Skinwalker would have got him--it's just too good.

Maybe. Maybe not. We don't really know what Harry's told them about the dangers out there. Harry wasn't prepared for the skinwalker, so I have a hard time imagining he could have sufficiently prepared the Alphas.

The bottom line is that the case of Kirby is a weak argument for Harry's withholding of information being harmful.

This.

They couldn't make an informed choice because he kept them in the dark.

An informed choice about what? Fighting monsters generally? Well, Harry may not have given them all the information, but they've been doing it long enough at this point that I think it's safe to assume that they've made a reasonably informed decision regarding whether they want to keep doing that. The fact that Harry was followed? Well, it would have been helpful if he'd shared more information about that, but given that he was barely conscious and hardly capable of stringing two words together, I don't see how he could have managed it. Skinwalkers in particular? Well, talking about them makes them stronger, plus they seem fairly obscure, and Harry had no reason to expect that anyone he knew would ever run into them, so I think that falls under the category of "can't be reasonably foreseen."

Also, I'd like to add that textual evidence has been cited establishing that Harry knew nothing about Skinwalkers until after Kirby was killed by one, so even if Harry had given Will an exhaustive list of every supernatural creature he knew of, it still wouldn't have told Will anything about Skinwalkers.

Yes, but Billy was quite explicitly coming from a place of ignorance. For all he knew, these things were as common as faeries, and with similar weaknesses.

And I responded by saying that Will was speaking from a place of ignorance, and admitted that. Therefore, he could not know whether the information Harry might have given him would have made a difference.

3b)Read that line back to yourself and say.  "That is a failure of planning being unable to see the future on Harry's part."

Fixed it for you. Seriously, how was Harry supposed to plan for something that he didn't have any reason to know might happen? And how should he have planned for it? Please provide a step-by-step plan for how to deal with nearly having your mind destroyed by looking at an ancient evil with the Sight, keeping in mind that he had no way of anticipating said ancient evil, no practical experience with having the Sight cause such a reaction, and no meaningful ability to function from the moment he Saw it until at least a couple of hours after being locked in a dark room with no stimuli.

[Bad Alias]

@Morris: I always took the last sentence of that quote to be about the political situation more than the "how dangerous some entities are" side of it. I also think Billy knows more than Dresden thinks Billy knows, or at least he did in the earlier books.

And how should he have planned for it?

Use a scale for threat level. I know people always make fun of things like the terror alert level colors or the DragonBallZ thing where they have the power reader "it's over 9,000!" stuff, but a shorthand for how bad is the monster/how bad is the situation is probably a really good idea.

[nadia.skylark]

Also, to come back to my objection to this:

Harry is a lightning rod and he owes it to everyone around him to explain the danger of standing near him in lightning storms.

I've figured out why I object to it. My problem is two-fold:
1) First, that it claims that Harry is the reason for all the nasty stuff happening around him. Whether Harry were around or not, the problems of Storm Front, Fool Moon, Summer Knight, Death Masks, part of Blood Rites, Dead Beat (probably), possibly Proven Guilty (depending on what people's motivations were--we just don't know yet), Turn Coat (although it wouldn't have happened in Chicago), and possibly Cold Days, would still have happened. And most of them would have happened in the same place. So how is Harry considered responsible for bringing down all that trouble onto people?
2)"Everyone around him" is too broad a category. Harry does not owe it to the entire city of Chicago to tell them about the supernatural world. You could as easily claim that Harry owes it to everyone around him to go live as a hermit and never get close to anyone, because trouble might find him and hurt those around him. It's just unreasonable.

If you'd said, "Harry owes it to those he involves in his fights/cases to explain the dangers," I would agree with you.

@Morris: I always took the last sentence of that quote to be about the political situation more than the "how dangerous some entities are" side of it. I also think Billy knows more than Dresden thinks Billy knows, or at least he did in the earlier books.

I tend to agree with this.

Use a scale for threat level. I know people always make fun of things like the terror alert level colors or the DragonBallZ thing where they have the power reader "it's over 9,000!" stuff, but a shorthand for how bad is the monster/how bad is the situation is probably a really good idea.

This would probably work, except that I tend to think that Harry was too catatonic to be expected to remember it in order to tell Will at the time. Other people may interpret his level of non-functionality differently, however.

[Mira]

2. Harry caused Kirby's death in Turn Coat. But for Harry going to Billy's, Kirby wouldn't have been involved. Harry being the "but-for" cause does not make him responsible, either legally or morally. Legally, being the cause in fact if necessary but not sufficient for culpability. I'd say it is the same for morally, but morality is infinitely debatable. That, however, has nothing to do with whether or not Kirby died because Harry withheld information from Billy. I agree with the arguments that he did not and don't think I've seen an argument other than "Billy said so" on the other side.

Which he clearly didn't say if one cares to read the text.. Billy is emphatic that it wasn't Harry's fault.

    “Billy,” I said quietly. “This isn’t stuff you can unlearn. Right now, you’re insulated from the worst of what goes on because you’re . . . I don’t want to be insulting, but you’re a bunch of amateurs without enough of a clue to be a real threat to anyone.”
    His eyes darkened. “Insulated from the worst?” he asked in a quiet, dangerous voice. “Tell that to Kirby. Tell that to Andi.”

Obviously if he has been shielding then from the worst they can't of had any idea that something like the Skinwalker was a possibility.  And if that isn't clear then there is this.
Quote

  Because as I have written from when it happened, Will was not blaming Harry...  Harry hadn't been trying to shield them from anything because he didn't know what in the hell he had just seen except it was very bad and dangerous...


The quote you cite is on page 220,  Harry now knows what they are after and it is on the island.  Will is willing to help, but he no longer wants to be shielded from the danger by Harry..   He wasn't assessing blame for Kirby's death to Harry, he was saying that they are not kids anymore, and earned the right to be fully filled in about what is going down..

Harry then says..

I pointed a finger at him.  "I don't want it.  I don't wantto drag you into what's going on/  I don't want you walking into more danger and getting hurt."  I sighed.  "But. . .there is a lot at stake, and I think I may need your help."

Will agrees, and Harry realizes they are not kids anymore, and promises to clue them in as much as he can from now on...

1) First, that it claims that Harry is the reason for all the nasty stuff happening around him. Whether Harry were around or not, the problems of Storm Front, Fool Moon, Summer Knight, Death Masks, part of Blood Rites, Dead Beat (probably), possibly Proven Guilty (depending on what people's motivations were--we just don't know yet), Turn Coat (although it wouldn't have happened in Chicago), and possibly Cold Days, would still have happened. And most of them would have happened in the same place. So how is Harry considered responsible for bringing down all that trouble onto people?

Because he is the lightning rod, and because for the most part he is the one who cares enough to want to do something about it... What is more has the talent to do something about it...  He is living the argument his mother used to make to the Senior Council, that wizards cannot lock themselves away in some ivory tower while the world falls down around them..  Other people naturally want to join his causes, they are very dangerous causes, and people get hurt and sometimes even killed.

2)"Everyone around him" is too broad a category. Harry does not owe it to the entire city of Chicago to tell them about the supernatural world. You could as easily claim that Harry owes it to everyone around him to go live as a hermit and never get close to anyone, because trouble might find him and hurt those around him. It's just unreasonable.

It is, but like he learned from Will, if someone is willing to put his or her life on the line, they deserve the complete skinny on as to why...

This would probably work, except that I tend to think that Harry was too catatonic to be expected to remember it in order to tell Will at the time. Other people may interpret his level of non-functionality differently, however.

The way I read the text and the aftermath of Kirby's death, Harry wasn't sure what he saw, he had never seen a skinwalker before that moment..  It wasn't until the fight was over that he realized what they were up against.. 
Page 33

"What was that thing?"
"I'm not certain,"  I answered, breathing hard.  Georgia was coming along behind us dragging my staff in her jaws. "But if it is what I think it is, things just got a lot worse."
Billy looked up at me, Kirby's blood all over his face and hands.  "What is it Harry?"
"A Native American nightmare," I said.  I looked at him gravely, "A skinwalker."

[Wolfeyes]

I think a big differentiator in whether a) Harry just feels guilty b) Harry is culpable for someone getting hurt and/or killed through withholding information comes through in the narrative choices.

Whenever Harry makes a mistake like being in denial about his feelings towards Murphy, or being too afraid to bond with Maggie, or even just in how much guilt he feels about something, Butcher's usually good at throwing someone reliable at Harry to challenge him on those points-of-view. Murphy in Cold Days, Michael in Skin Game, and even Uriel in The Warrior short story, for example.

In the case of Kirby, the narrative doesn't challenge Billy's response to Kirby's death (contrasted to how the narrative challenged Butter in Skin Game). Billy is the one challenging Harry and is framed in justified in expecting Harry to share more information. Harry might not be the cause but there's culpability, otherwise Harry would have no reason to change how he does things.

[nadia.skylark]

To me, the issue is not that Harry is in any way culpable in Kirby's death, but that, by refusing to share information, Harry allowed the possibility that other Alphas would get killed due to the lack of information. It's a hypothetical concern that was only really brought home to Will and Harry when Kirby died. For example, if the Alpha's had gotten into a fight with a Denarian and one of them had died, there's a good chance Harry would have had some culpability, because he had a bunch of information about Denarians that might have helped, but up until this point he hasn't shared it. This isn't true with the Skinwalker, of course, but it makes the possibilities clear.

[g33k]

The point is Susan should have known about the supernatural at all. This is all started when Harry advertise himself as a wizard in the yellow pages. He open the Pandora's box right there. There is a reason why the white council looks poorly about Harry in this matter. It may look innocent at the start, but Harry's advertisement draws amateurs into the the game of supernaturals. 

No, it started when Susan went to work for The Arcane, well before she met Harry.  Harry attests they "once in a while" they documented genuine supernatural events; he cites a 1994 event in SF (published 2000, so written 1998ish(?)), before she and Harry met.

As Harry attests repeatedly, most of the reason Dresdenverse mundanes don't believe in the supernatural is because they don't want to.  She was following what SI did, what any "psychic consultant" for the cops did.  She was both clever and curious, and -- critically -- willing to believe.

Susan seems to have tricked Harry into a soulgaze, confirming (a) that magic is real, & (b) that Harry had magic.
 Susan was a reporter, and a good one; after that soulgaze, nothing would have shaken her loose from Harry.
 

[Bad Alias]

You could as easily claim that Harry owes it to everyone around him to go live as a hermit and never get close to anyone, because trouble might find him and hurt those around him.

That is what Ebeneezer does.

Wolfeyes raises a good point arguing that Jim wants us to believe it is Harry's fault, not just in this case, but in all of them, that harm has come because he didn't share information. I don't believe he is ever told it's not his fault. He does repeatedly bring up the point that people have been hurt by him not informing them. He is often called out for blaming himself in general.

To me, the issue is not that Harry is in any way culpable in Kirby's death, but that, by refusing to share information, Harry allowed the possibility that other Alphas would get killed due to the lack of information. It's a hypothetical concern that was only really brought home to Will and Harry when Kirby died. For example, if the Alpha's had gotten into a fight with a Denarian and one of them had died, there's a good chance Harry would have had some culpability, because he had a bunch of information about Denarians that might have helped, but up until this point he hasn't shared it. This isn't true with the Skinwalker, of course, but it makes the possibilities clear.

Agree.

[g33k]

To me, the issue is not that Harry is in any way culpable in Kirby's death, but that, by refusing to share information, Harry allowed the possibility that other Alphas would get killed due to the lack of information. It's a hypothetical concern that was only really brought home to Will and Harry when Kirby died. For example, if the Alpha's had gotten into a fight with a Denarian and one of them had died, there's a good chance Harry would have had some culpability, because he had a bunch of information about Denarians that might have helped, but up until this point he hasn't shared it. This isn't true with the Skinwalker, of course, but it makes the possibilities clear.

He could have said something.  But only something vague.

And he did.  "This is bad.  Really bad."

As one might expect, this did not suffice.  Most people don't want to believe in their own mortality; most young people don't seem able to.  And the Alpha's?  Supernaturally tough, dangerous?  What did THEY have to be afraid of?  One scared wizard's vague warnings.

Even if Harry had said to them, "There are things in the supernatural realm that can tear a werewolf apart... tear a PACK of werewolves apart.  And one of them is here in town, right now, hunting the neighborhood," I don't think ti would have disuaded them.
 

[Mira]

To me, the issue is not that Harry is in any way culpable in Kirby's death, but that, by refusing to share information, Harry allowed the possibility that other Alphas would get killed due to the lack of information. It's a hypothetical concern that was only really brought home to Will and Harry when Kirby died. For example, if the Alpha's had gotten into a fight with a Denarian and one of them had died, there's a good chance Harry would have had some culpability, because he had a bunch of information about Denarians that might have helped, but up until this point he hasn't shared it. This isn't true with the Skinwalker, of course, but it makes the possibilities clear.

In the fight that killed Kirby,  Harry did not know until after the fact what they were up against.. He gave them the information he had, it was bad and dangerous, that is all he knew..  What Will was saying on page 220 almost two hundred pages later is the fact that Kirby was willing to and did die to help Harry earned them the right to know fully what the stakes were before going in, they weren't kids anymore to be shielded...

Wolfeyes raises a good point arguing that Jim wants us to believe it is Harry's fault, not just in this case, but in all of them, that harm has come because he didn't share information. I don't believe he is ever told it's not his fault. He does repeatedly bring up the point that people have been hurt by him not informing them. He is often called out for blaming himself in general.

Will clearly tells him it isn't his fault...

[Mira]

He could have said something.  But only something vague.

And he did.  "This is bad.  Really bad."

But that was all the information Harry had in that moment...  And he did share it..

Even if Harry had said to them, "There are things in the supernatural realm that can tear a werewolf apart... tear a PACK of werewolves apart.  And one of them is here in town, right now, hunting the neighborhood," I don't think ti would have disuaded them.
 

Agreed, and that is what Will was trying to tell Harry afterwards, they knew the score, they are adults they made their choice...

[Mira]

In the case of Kirby, the narrative doesn't challenge Billy's response to Kirby's death (contrasted to how the narrative challenged Butter in Skin Game). Billy is the one challenging Harry and is framed in justified in expecting Harry to share more information. Harry might not be the cause but there's culpability, otherwise Harry would have no reason to change how he does things.

Not true...  What Will was saying was with Kirby's death they have proven that they are willing to pay the ultimate price, they are not kids that need to be protected..  That isn't assigning culpability for Kirby's death,  it is demanding respect as team members..  Harry realizes that, he knows he needs them in the coming fight, he realizes they are adults now, capable of making choices.  All he can do now is give them what information he can so they can make the choices right for them.