Earth magic responsible for weapons skill?

[nadia.skylark]

I still don't think any of this really addresses the issue of Warden optimality though.

True. But on reflection, wardens need high skills in:

Conviction
Discipline
Lore
any two/three of
-intimidation
-deceit
-rapport
-empathy
-presence
investigation
weapons
alertness

And they should probably also have decent athletics, endurance, contacts, and guns.

So I think the real problem with wardens is they need to be able to do a bunch of stuff, since they're sent out on their own to investigate suspicious stuff and hunt down warlocks, plus interface with minor talents (which admittedly they're not too good at) and they don't seem to be able to get much, if any, backup even when they have time to ask for it.

[Mr. Death]

True. But on reflection, wardens need high skills in:

Conviction
Discipline
Lore
any two/three of
-intimidation
-deceit
-rapport
-empathy
-presence
investigation
weapons
alertness

And they should probably also have decent athletics, endurance, contacts, and guns.

So I think the real problem with wardens is they need to be able to do a bunch of stuff, since they're sent out on their own to investigate suspicious stuff and hunt down warlocks, plus interface with minor talents (which admittedly they're not too good at) and they don't seem to be able to get much, if any, backup even when they have time to ask for it.

Well, for a start... yeah, nobody's going to be super good at everything. That's how life -- and this game system -- works. If you spend all your time being swordy and magicy, something's going to fall to the wayside. That's why we see some Wardens that are better at one or the other (Yoshimo in Dead Beat, who Morgan outright says shouldn't have tried to use her sword because she's crap with it).

It's a balancing act, and I think some of the most fun parts of the game are when a character has to make use of his or her lower-point skills, because then they have to get creative instead of, "OK, just gonna roll my apex skill again and again."

Also 3 in a skill is still "decent." 4 and 5 are already exceptional, and 6 is explicitly more than humans are usually capable of.

I do not see any issue with just having Weapons, Discipline and Conviction filling the 3-5 slots. With focus items and specializations, that's more than enough to be badass with swords and a more than formidable caster. And hell, with a decent Lore, the Thaumaturgy power can let you be good at damn near any other skill with some prep time.

And again, this is just playing into the inflation -- suddenly Shiro's 6 in swordplay is understatted? 6 is literally beyond human ability.

I see a lot of unwarranted assumptions being made based on a fight we didn't see.

A 5 with Swords -- especially a Warden sword which can become Weapon:6 on command -- is already plenty good enough to carve your way through the Red Court's footsoldiers and ghouls without needing some "free" casting power.

Morgan doesn't have to have personally, individually taken out every single one of the Red King's bodyguards to have taken a swing at the Red King.

A. Morgan was not the only Warden in the battle and B. Morgan could have used some huge Earth evocation to simply knock the bodyguards away in one go

So again I fail to see the need for a stunt or power of this type; Morgan's write-up already has him as good with swords and a strong magic user. Unless you're buying into the whole "Anything below a 5 is weak" philosophy.

[Mr. Death]

As for what it says in the Paranet Papers, I really do not think it's saying, "Use this to justify adding your spellcasting bonuses to other skills."

The way I read it:

Instead of a literal shield, an earth block

An Earth Block Evocation spell ...

might look like a series of coincidental dodges, with the wizard just instinctively knowing which way to move to avoid the attack.

is described differently, without changing the actual mechanics.

And...

Instead of some electromagnetic distortion zapping people, an earth attack

An Earth evocation attack spell

might look as though the wizard was really, really good at hand-to-hand fighting, always managing to slip past the opponent’s defense.

is described differently, without changing the mechanics.

Perhaps the most advanced application of earth magic doesn’t look like magic at all— just the right things happening in response to anything the wizard does, always working out in his favor.

And he has an aspect that he can tag.

[Taran]

Well, for a start... yeah, nobody's going to be super good at everything. That's how life -- and this game system -- works. If you spend all your time being swordy and magicy, something's going to fall to the wayside. That's why we see some Wardens that are better at one or the other (Yoshimo in Dead Beat, who Morgan outright says shouldn't have tried to use her sword because she's crap with it).

It's a balancing act, and I think some of the most fun parts of the game are when a character has to make use of his or her lower-point skills, because then they have to get creative instead of, "OK, just gonna roll my apex skill again and again."

Also 3 in a skill is still "decent." 4 and 5 are already exceptional, and 6 is explicitly more than humans are usually capable of.

I do not see any issue with just having Weapons, Discipline and Conviction filling the 3-5 slots. With focus items and specializations, that's more than enough to be badass with swords and a more than formidable caster. And hell, with a decent Lore, the Thaumaturgy power can let you be good at damn near any other skill with some prep time.

And again, this is just playing into the inflation -- suddenly Shiro's 6 in swordplay is understatted? 6 is literally beyond human ability.

I see a lot of unwarranted assumptions being made based on a fight we didn't see.

A 5 with Swords -- especially a Warden sword which can become Weapon:6 on command -- is already plenty good enough to carve your way through the Red Court's footsoldiers and ghouls without needing some "free" casting power.

Morgan doesn't have to have personally, individually taken out every single one of the Red King's bodyguards to have taken a swing at the Red King.

A. Morgan was not the only Warden in the battle and B. Morgan could have used some huge Earth evocation to simply knock the bodyguards away in one go

So again I fail to see the need for a stunt or power of this type; Morgan's write-up already has him as good with swords and a strong magic user. Unless you're buying into the whole "Anything below a 5 is weak" philosophy.

@nadia.skylark

To reinforce this point and to touch on the point that Shiro’s +6 skill isn’t high enough. 

1. He’s twice as good as a full professional swordsman
2. I play in a 19 refresh game where the skill cap is +6.  My character’s weapon skill is 6 with a boost to 7 with a magic weapon. 

-Mundane enemies are not a challenge at all.
—granted, the character has toughness powers and Incite Effect triggered off of weapons
-My character single handedly took out Lord Raith.  It was a super hard fight and he had high refresh goons with him but his goons couldn’t touch my character.  With fate points and maneuvers and tags, I was putting up +9 and 10 blocks and defending everything at +7. 

If you boost things past the Ladder, then low skills become useless.  I already find skills at +2 and 3 to be less useful because the high refresh enemies we are facing are usually able to defend against it.  But it’s still perfectly fine against ‘normal’ enemies.   If you push me to everything higher, then your mooks now all need to be full professional soldiers in every situation. 

Regarding aspects:  a taggable aspect is not equal to a straight +2 bonus.  Aspects can be invoked for effect.  So, instead of giving yourself a +2 to dodge, you can use that aspect to make an attack miss by compelling the aspect against the enemy, for instance.   I feel you may be under-selling aspects. 

[nadia.skylark]

Well, for a start... yeah, nobody's going to be super good at everything. That's how life -- and this game system -- works. If you spend all your time being swordy and magicy, something's going to fall to the wayside. That's why we see some Wardens that are better at one or the other (Yoshimo in Dead Beat, who Morgan outright says shouldn't have tried to use her sword because she's crap with it).

It's a balancing act, and I think some of the most fun parts of the game are when a character has to make use of his or her lower-point skills, because then they have to get creative instead of, "OK, just gonna roll my apex skill again and again."

What I was trying to say was that, given how many things the ideal warden ought to be able to do, there's no point in worrying about less-than-excellent swordsmanship, since there's no way they can be good at everything. I feel like this didn't come across, though.

I see a lot of unwarranted assumptions being made based on a fight we didn't see.

A 5 with Swords -- especially a Warden sword which can become Weapon:6 on command -- is already plenty good enough to carve your way through the Red Court's footsoldiers and ghouls without needing some "free" casting power.

Morgan doesn't have to have personally, individually taken out every single one of the Red King's bodyguards to have taken a swing at the Red King.

A. Morgan was not the only Warden in the battle and B. Morgan could have used some huge Earth evocation to simply knock the bodyguards away in one go

So again I fail to see the need for a stunt or power of this type; Morgan's write-up already has him as good with swords and a strong magic user. Unless you're buying into the whole "Anything below a 5 is weak" philosophy.

About the battle: the impression I got when reading about it was that A) Morgan was mostly, if not entirely, responsible for getting as close as he did, which is one of the things that made it so impressive; and B) that this battle demonstrated that Morgan was better than 99% of wardens. This is what I have based my assumptions on. Other people, naturally, are free to read it differently.

And yes, Morgan's character write-up already includes his sword skills. I brought up substituting this power for that because other people have said that his build is not optimized--not because it doesn't do what it's supposed to.

And again, this is just playing into the inflation -- suddenly Shiro's 6 in swordplay is understatted? 6 is literally beyond human ability.

To reinforce this point and to touch on the point that Shiro’s +6 skill isn’t high enough. 

1. He’s twice as good as a full professional swordsman
2. I play in a 19 refresh game where the skill cap is +6.  My character’s weapon skill is 6 with a boost to 7 with a magic weapon. 

-Mundane enemies are not a challenge at all.
—granted, the character has toughness powers and Incite Effect triggered off of weapons
-My character single handedly took out Lord Raith.  It was a super hard fight and he had high refresh goons with him but his goons couldn’t touch my character.  With fate points and maneuvers and tags, I was putting up +9 and 10 blocks and defending everything at +7. 

If you boost things past the Ladder, then low skills become useless.  I already find skills at +2 and 3 to be less useful because the high refresh enemies we are facing are usually able to defend against it.  But it’s still perfectly fine against ‘normal’ enemies.   If you push me to everything higher, then your mooks now all need to be full professional soldiers in every situation. 

My assertions about Shiro being under-statted are based on character write-ups that we see in Paranet Papers. Specifically, I believe that if Shiro is, as he is described, "Mozart with a sword" then A) he should have his highest skills equal to the highest skills of Senior Council members (since they're the best at what they do) and he doesn't; and B) that he should have combat stunts at least equal to Murphy (since she is very good, but isn't supposed to be better than him) and from what I remember, he doesn't.

As for what it says in the Paranet Papers, I really do not think it's saying, "Use this to justify adding your spellcasting bonuses to other skills."

The way I read it:

An Earth Block Evocation spell ...

is described differently, without changing the actual mechanics.

And...

An Earth evocation attack spell

is described differently, without changing the mechanics.

And he has an aspect that he can tag.

Regarding aspects:  a taggable aspect is not equal to a straight +2 bonus.  Aspects can be invoked for effect.  So, instead of giving yourself a +2 to dodge, you can use that aspect to make an attack miss by compelling the aspect against the enemy, for instance.   I feel you may be under-selling aspects.

Yeah, I'm just going to represent this with an upgrade of the easy evocations power (written up on another thread). That makes more sense.

[Taran]

yeah, I'm just going to represent this with an upgrade of the easy evocations power (written up on another thread). That makes more sense.

The mechanics of the game are, literally, built on aspects.  You seem reluctant to use these mechanics to solve your issues.  Are you finding aspects aren't getting used much in your games?

[nadia.skylark]

The mechanics of the game are, literally, built on aspects.  You seem reluctant to use these mechanics to solve your issues.  Are you finding aspects aren't getting used much in your games?

I'm trying to use the RPG character progression system to keep track of my fan fiction character's growth while controlling the rate at which she improves so that she doesn't end up a Mary Sue. Aspects are significantly less useful for this than they are in actual games.

[Mr. Death]

What I was trying to say was that, given how many things the ideal warden ought to be able to do, there's no point in worrying about less-than-excellent swordsmanship, since there's no way they can be good at everything. I feel like this didn't come across, though.

Nobody's going to be an "ideal" Warden. They're going to be great at some things, good at others, and passable at the rest. There's no reason to expect them to be experts at everything they need to be good at.

About the battle: the impression I got when reading about it was that A) Morgan was mostly, if not entirely, responsible for getting as close as he did, which is one of the things that made it so impressive; and B) that this battle demonstrated that Morgan was better than 99% of wardens. This is what I have based my assumptions on. Other people, naturally, are free to read it differently.

I think both those assumptions are unfounded. It's a battle -- dozens, if not hundreds of guys to a side. Morgan might have been leading the charge and he might have been one of the best fighters on the field, but that doesn't mean that he's got some hitherto unknown power that puts him leaps and bounds above Shiro.

And yes, Morgan's character write-up already includes his sword skills. I brought up substituting this power for that because other people have said that his build is not optimized--not because it doesn't do what it's supposed to.

Who's said that? And why does he need to be "optimized"?

My assertions about Shiro being under-statted are based on character write-ups that we see in Paranet Papers. Specifically, I believe that if Shiro is, as he is described, "Mozart with a sword" then A) he should have his highest skills equal to the highest skills of Senior Council members (since they're the best at what they do) and he doesn't; and B) that he should have combat stunts at least equal to Murphy (since she is very good, but isn't supposed to be better than him) and from what I remember, he doesn't.

Magic and swordfighting are different things. The Senior Council members are each at least a couple hundred years old, and have used a lot of that time to get better at magic. Shiro did not have the benefit of hundreds of years, and is limited by his human body in a way that magic isn't, because Weapons is a physical skill.

Shiro's got a base Weapons of 6, and the Sword gives him a +1 on top of that. Neither Murphy's guns nor fists scores are up to that, and how many stunts one has is not a measure of how good they are.

Yeah, I'm just going to represent this with an upgrade of the easy evocations power (written up on another thread). That makes more sense.

I still don't see how it makes any sense, when there are several ways to do it by the RAW.

I'm trying to use the RPG character progression system to keep track of my fan fiction character's growth while controlling the rate at which she improves so that she doesn't end up a Mary Sue. Aspects are significantly less useful for this than they are in actual games.

You think giving her a power that amounts to, "Make her far better with a sword than the canon character who's universally known as the best with swords" is going to prevent her from being a Mary Sue?

I'm pretty sure "Better than the canon character at the canon character's specialty" is one of the top 5 Mary Sue traits.

Edit: Combined with the other threads for (I'm presuming) this same character, it looks like you're aiming for someone who:
A. Is better at swording than the undisputed master of swording (Shiro)
B. Can shrug off and ignore most damage better than the undisputed master of getting his face kicked in (Harry)
C. Can take more damage than anyone else in a single blow and keep fighting
and D. Is a lawbreaker, but with more and better bonuses to the powers than Lawbreaker has in canon.

You say you want to avoid being a Mary Sue, but from those threads it's starting to look like a Mary Sue checklist.

Limits and believability are what make a great character -- not ratcheting up all their stats to the point of making them unbeatable.

[nadia.skylark]

Nobody's going to be an "ideal" Warden. They're going to be great at some things, good at others, and passable at the rest. There's no reason to expect them to be experts at everything they need to be good at.

Yes. That's what I am saying.

I think both those assumptions are unfounded. It's a battle -- dozens, if not hundreds of guys to a side. Morgan might have been leading the charge and he might have been one of the best fighters on the field, but that doesn't mean that he's got some hitherto unknown power that puts him leaps and bounds above Shiro.

You think giving her a power that amounts to, "Make her far better with a sword than the canon character who's universally known as the best with swords" is going to prevent her from being a Mary Sue?

I'm pretty sure "Better than the canon character at the canon character's specialty" is one of the top 5 Mary Sue traits.

Okay, can you please explain to me why you're convinced that I'm trying to make wizards better fighters that Shiro when I have specifically stated that I do not want this, and have attempted to modify this power to avoid it (however dubiously successfully) every time someone said that it was what the power was doing?

In a battle of Shiro vs. Morgan, here's how I see things playing out:
-If Shiro is on official Knight business and Morgan has his magic, Shiro wins hands down.
-If Shiro is on official Knight business and Morgan does not have his magic, Shiro wins hands down.
-If Shiro does not have TWG helping and Morgan has his magic, then it's a draw or Morgan maybe wins.
-If Shiro does not have TWG helping and Morgan does not have his magic, then Shiro wins hands down.

Who's said that? And why does he need to be "optimized"?

Sanctaphrax, for one, and he doesn't need to be, I just think it would be interesting if he were.

Magic and swordfighting are different things. The Senior Council members are each at least a couple hundred years old, and have used a lot of that time to get better at magic. Shiro did not have the benefit of hundreds of years, and is limited by his human body in a way that magic isn't, because Weapons is a physical skill.

Shiro is the equal or superior of someone who has had two thousand years to practice his swordsmanship.

Shiro's got a base Weapons of 6, and the Sword gives him a +1 on top of that. Neither Murphy's guns nor fists scores are up to that, and how many stunts one has is not a measure of how good they are.

Fair enough.

I still don't see how it makes any sense, when there are several ways to do it by the RAW.

I'm going to be blunt here, and I apologize for my rudeness, but I don't care if you think it makes sense to do things this way, so long as it isn't overpowered.

[Mr. Death]

Yes. That's what I am saying.

I'm confused then, because it also seems that you're saying this is a problem that you're trying to address, by giving a Warden an artificially high Swords power to more than compensate.

Okay, can you please explain to me why you're convinced that I'm trying to make wizards better fighters that Shiro when I have specifically stated that I do not want this, and have attempted to modify this power to avoid it (however dubiously successfully) every time someone said that it was what the power was doing?

Shiro has a Weapons skill of 6. Applying the Easy Evocations ability to swordplay allows a Warden to start with an effective Weapons skill of 10 and then keep improving it through Refinements. Even with the modifications (-2 penalty; halving the bonuses), it's still something that can and will grow well beyond what Shiro is capable of, no matter what other stunts he takes.

How can I interpret that as anything besides, "The end result is wizards will be better at swordplay than Shiro"?

In a battle of Shiro vs. Morgan, here's how I see things playing out:
-If Shiro is on official Knight business and Morgan has his magic, Shiro wins hands down.
-If Shiro is on official Knight business and Morgan does not have his magic, Shiro wins hands down.
-If Shiro does not have TWG helping and Morgan has his magic, then it's a draw or Morgan maybe wins.
-If Shiro does not have TWG helping and Morgan does not have his magic, then Shiro wins hands down.

Morgan wins easily if he has his magic.

Earth magic includes magnetism and Shiro's sword is made of steel. Morgan can -- like Harry has done -- make something magnetic enough that Shiro's spindly 80-year-old arms can't overcome it. As far as I know, the Swords do not have protection against magic working on them -- in fact, Harry uses exactly this quality on Amoracchius in Grave Peril to send Mavra flying across the room.

And I'm not sure in what situation Morgan wouldn't have his magic; but if he didn't, then yeah, the Shiro wins, if narrowly because Morgan is still pretty good at swording.

Sanctaphrax, for one, and he doesn't need to be, I just think it would be interesting if he were.

I disagree. Optimized characters tend to be less interesting than ones that have to get clever and creative to get things done.

Shiro is the equal or superior of someone who has had two thousand years to practice his swordsmanship.

Yes, because of the aforementioned physical limitations of the human body -- limitations that do not apply to magic.

I'm going to be blunt here, and I apologize for my rudeness, but I don't care if you think it makes sense to do things this way, so long as it isn't overpowered.

And I'm saying it is overpowered, at least potentially. Rolling an essentially free attack from 5 or 6 is already powerful; rolling it from 7 or 8 or 9 or higher thanks to this proposed power is going to overshadow characters whose Weapons ability is supposed to be their specialty and niche.

[nadia.skylark]

I'm confused then, because it also seems that you're saying this is a problem that you're trying to address, by giving a Warden an artificially high Swords power to more than compensate.

Ah, sorry. What I was saying was that I was trying to do that, and then realized that there was no point.

Shiro has a Weapons skill of 6. Applying the Easy Evocations ability to swordplay allows a Warden to start with an effective Weapons skill of 10 and then keep improving it through Refinements. Even with the modifications (-2 penalty; halving the bonuses), it's still something that can and will grow well beyond what Shiro is capable of, no matter what other stunts he takes.

And I'm saying it is overpowered, at least potentially. Rolling an essentially free attack from 5 or 6 is already powerful; rolling it from 7 or 8 or 9 or higher thanks to this proposed power is going to overshadow characters whose Weapons ability is supposed to be their specialty and niche.

Actually, applying Easy Evocations to swordplay allows a warden to start with an effective weapons skill of 4-5 and then keep improving it through refinements. The fact that it can get so high is not an isolated problem, it's just one part of a larger problem which I've already mentioned, and will repost here:

The problem, as I understand it, is that due to refinement bonuses being able to boost one's skills much higher than you can with stunts (because stunts don't stack) wizards hit harder in combat. The limitation is usually that they can only make a limited number of attacks, so anything that increases or removes the limit is a problem.

To fix this, you can:
A) not allow anything that increases or removes the limit
B) weaken anything wizards do that is covered by the increase or removal of the limit
C) give other characters something similar to wizards' refinement bonuses

I am addressing this partly through B, and partly through handwaving the issue by saying "there's something that does C." I can do this because I am not using this power in a game, and don't need to stat out any character besides my main character--thus, I can just write Shiro as being better at swordsmanship than anyone else without having to come up with the specific mechanics of how it happens.

This power probably should not be used in actual games until someone actually writes up something that does C. However, while I would like to do that, I just don't know enough about the system to manage it, and the one thing I suggested, I was told would not work.

How can I interpret that as anything besides, "The end result is wizards will be better at swordplay than Shiro"?

You can interpret it as me trying to avoid that outcome.

Morgan wins easily if he has his magic.

Earth magic includes magnetism and Shiro's sword is made of steel. Morgan can -- like Harry has done -- make something magnetic enough that Shiro's spindly 80-year-old arms can't overcome it. As far as I know, the Swords do not have protection against magic working on them -- in fact, Harry uses exactly this quality on Amoracchius in Grave Peril to send Mavra flying across the room.

And I'm not sure in what situation Morgan wouldn't have his magic; but if he didn't, then yeah, the Shiro wins, if narrowly because Morgan is still pretty good at swording.

So now you're saying that I'd be right to give Morgan an ability that lets him beat Shiro at swords? I'm confused. (Also, I would tend to assume that that kind of magnetism trick wouldn't work if the sword was in the hands of a rightful bearer. Otherwise all the Denarians would just learn a few earth magic spells and the Knights wouldn't be a threat.)

I disagree. Optimized characters tend to be less interesting than ones that have to get clever and creative to get things done.

Agree to disagree.

Yes, because of the aforementioned physical limitations of the human body -- limitations that do not apply to magic.

I don't know. We've seen Nicodemus move so fast he can't be seen moving. We know that Nicodemus has the ability to enhance his physical abilities (through Anduriel. Just because he doesn't do any obvious shapeshifting doesn't mean he doesn't up his speed or whatever). We know that Nicodemus is the equal or inferior of Shiro when it comes to swordsmanship. Based on this, one could make a good case that physical limitations are not that much of a problem when it comes to the weapons skill.

On the other hand, we have Ursiel saying that Shiro is less capable now than when he was younger, so it could go either way.

[Mr. Death]

Ah, sorry. What I was saying was that I was trying to do that, and then realized that there was no point.

Ah, gotcha.

Actually, applying Easy Evocations to swordplay allows a warden to start with an effective weapons skill of 4-5 and then keep improving it through refinements. The fact that it can get so high is not an isolated problem, it's just one part of a larger problem which I've already mentioned, and will repost here:

I am addressing this partly through B, and partly through handwaving the issue by saying "there's something that does C." I can do this because I am not using this power in a game, and don't need to stat out any character besides my main character--thus, I can just write Shiro as being better at swordsmanship than anyone else without having to come up with the specific mechanics of how it happens.

So, basically, the answer is just going ahead with inflation? I'm still not sure I understand the "problem" you're trying to address here.

So to clarify, is the problem that wizards only have a limited number of attacks with magic?

This power probably should not be used in actual games until someone actually writes up something that does C. However, while I would like to do that, I just don't know enough about the system to manage it, and the one thing I suggested, I was told would not work.

I'd say it definitely should not be used in actual games. Straight up inflation of skills isn't really the solution that this game is built for.

You can interpret it as me trying to avoid that outcome.

You wouldn't have to work to avoid the outcome if you were not proposing a power that, at its base, creates that outcome.

So now you're saying that I'd be right to give Morgan an ability that lets him beat Shiro at swords? I'm confused. (Also, I would tend to assume that that kind of magnetism trick wouldn't work if the sword was in the hands of a rightful bearer. Otherwise all the Denarians would just learn a few earth magic spells and the Knights wouldn't be a threat.)

I'm saying Morgan has an ability to beat Shiro -- just not if he's fighting him sword-to-sword. Morgan's a wizard, why is he going to opt for a fighting style that puts him at the biggest disadvantage? If Morgan takes Shiro on in a straight swordfight, Shiro wins.

Though you're right that it might not work on a Sword of the Cross in the hands of a rightful wielder; it's a fairly reasonable assumption given what we know of the Swords, though we don't have direct, observed data.

Agree to disagree.

Put it this way -- why do you think Tavi is the main protagonist of the Codex Alera instead of, say, one of the high-powered High Lords?

Why is dumb-and-out-of-control Harry the protagonist of The Dresden Files instead of Ebenezer?

I don't know. We've seen Nicodemus move so fast he can't be seen moving. We know that Nicodemus has the ability to enhance his physical abilities (through Anduriel. Just because he doesn't do any obvious shapeshifting doesn't mean he doesn't up his speed or whatever). We know that Nicodemus is the equal or inferior of Shiro when it comes to swordsmanship. Based on this, one could make a good case that physical limitations are not that much of a problem when it comes to the weapons skill.

Remember that the biggest thing the Swords do is level the playing field -- Nicodemus may well simply not have access to those enhanced physical abilities when he's up against a proper Knight.

On the other hand, we have Ursiel saying that Shiro is less capable now than when he was younger, so it could go either way.

Also true. For all we know, that 6 of Shiro's might well be a downgrade from when he was in his prime -- or maybe in his prime, he had additional stunts having to do with his fighting style.

[nadia.skylark]

So, basically, the answer is just going ahead with inflation? I'm still not sure I understand the "problem" you're trying to address here.

So to clarify, is the problem that wizards only have a limited number of attacks with magic?

That's probably because the problem I'm addressing has evolved a bunch. It's gone from "Wardens like Morgan are unoptimized" to "How do you represent earth magic attacks as looking like mundane attacks?" to "If you already have the Easy Evocations power, how do you represent using a sword/staff/whatever as part of your attacks with that?"

I'd say it definitely should not be used in actual games. Straight up inflation of skills isn't really the solution that this game is built for.

Fair enough.

I'm saying Morgan has an ability to beat Shiro -- just not if he's fighting him sword-to-sword. Morgan's a wizard, why is he going to opt for a fighting style that puts him at the biggest disadvantage? If Morgan takes Shiro on in a straight swordfight, Shiro wins.

Okay, that makes sense. But, wait a minute, aren't the Swords supposed to level the playing field? If Shiro's on the job, then Fidellachius ought to be able to do something about Morgan's magic.

Put it this way -- why do you think Tavi is the main protagonist of the Codex Alera instead of, say, one of the high-powered High Lords?

Why is dumb-and-out-of-control Harry the protagonist of The Dresden Files instead of Ebenezer?

Well, I've only read the first book and a half of Codex Alera, but from the descriptions I've read, doesn't Tavi end up not only the most powerful Crafter in the world, but also the leader of his civilization?

Remember that the biggest thing the Swords do is level the playing field -- Nicodemus may well simply not have access to those enhanced physical abilities when he's up against a proper Knight.

Also true. For all we know, that 6 of Shiro's might well be a downgrade from when he was in his prime -- or maybe in his prime, he had additional stunts having to do with his fighting style.

Good points.

[Mr. Death]

That's probably because the problem I'm addressing has evolved a bunch. It's gone from "Wardens like Morgan are unoptimized" to "How do you represent earth magic attacks as looking like mundane attacks?" to "If you already have the Easy Evocations power, how do you represent using a sword/staff/whatever as part of your attacks with that?"

Yeah, I suppose the conversation has gone a bit far afield. That said, I think the idea behind easy evocations is that the lack of a weapon rating is meant to balance the ease of it and the free casting, in which case I'd say that just rolling it into the "flavor" or maybe having it as an aspect of the attack works better than tacking on a weapons rating (i.e., an earth easy evocation with a mistletoe staff can get around Balder's immunity).

Okay, that makes sense. But, wait a minute, aren't the Swords supposed to level the playing field? If Shiro's on the job, then Fidellachius ought to be able to do something about Morgan's magic.

They are, but what exactly that entails is kind of murky at best. It might be that the 'evening the playing field' applies to things that are specifically opposed to the Swords, like demons and Denarians.

Or maybe you could invoke the Swords' holiness for a bonus to dodge/deflect magical attacks. The Sword can cut through reinforced steel walls like they were butter, so I see no reason it couldn't, say, cleave a boulder thrown at the wielder with magic.

Well, I've only read the first book and a half of Codex Alera, but from the descriptions I've read, doesn't Tavi end up not only the most powerful Crafter in the world, but also the leader of his civilization?

(click to show/hide)

Well, I'm not sure he's the most powerful -- he's only had a couple months of practice and shows no discrete furies -- and becoming the leader of his civilization only really happens in the epilogue, i.e., when he stops being a protagonist.

The point is that what makes Tavi interesting to follow so long is that he is at a disadvantage and has to make up for it; even when he grows into his power, his opponents can match that power or otherwise justify him needing it to survive. He might not be the best example in the long run.

Good points.

Thank you

[nadia.skylark]

Yeah, I suppose the conversation has gone a bit far afield. That said, I think the idea behind easy evocations is that the lack of a weapon rating is meant to balance the ease of it and the free casting, in which case I'd say that just rolling it into the "flavor" or maybe having it as an aspect of the attack works better than tacking on a weapons rating (i.e., an earth easy evocation with a mistletoe staff can get around Balder's immunity).

This might work, yeah. That said, I feel like there's a pretty big difference between being able to get up to maybe weapon:3 at most, so long as you have your equipment, and being able to throw out weapon:10 attacks with either no equipment or equipment that's hard to take away from you, which is what evocation with enough refinement lets you do.

Well, I'm not sure he's the most powerful -- he's only had a couple months of practice and shows no discrete furies -- and becoming the leader of his civilization only really happens in the epilogue, i.e., when he stops being a protagonist.

The point is that what makes Tavi interesting to follow so long is that he is at a disadvantage and has to make up for it; even when he grows into his power, his opponents can match that power or otherwise justify him needing it to survive. He might not be the best example in the long run.

Yeah. This is why I'm trying to track my character's progression, so that she always has enemies that are stronger than her (I'm also increasing the strength of some of the antagonists in the books who I feel were underpowered). Even when I get her to Kemmler-level (which is happening either in the epilogue or just in time for the final battle, I haven't decided which) she can still be stomped by lots of things that exist in the dresdenverse.