Why are powers so much stronger than stunts?

[Mr. Death]

Thanks!

So, if you're trying to stat out a character that starts out as an apprentice wizard and progresses to Kemmler-level badass, how would you go about that without inflating the numbers too much?

Slowly. Pick a specialty for them, and focus their upgrades on that -- with the acceptance that some things are just going to end up being weaknesses for the character. Which is not a bad thing! Weaknesses make for great drama and chances for character growth, either by overcoming those weaknesses (which usually means getting them up to adequate levels, not making them the best at it) or accepting them and compensating in creative ways.

So if your Swording Wizard has to make Investigation her dump stat so that her combat stats are adequate-to-high? Perfect opportunity to expand her cast with, say, a computer hacker character that can look into the things the wizard can't, or a rival private eye. Or the wizard is forced to talk to demons and pixies and such.

No protagonist is an island -- and you can have a lot of fun teaching them that the hard way.

I mean, look at Harry Dresden. When we first meet him, he's basically got two big tricks over his opponents -- a hefty magic punch and he's a keen investigator. As the books go by, he's confronted with his deficiencies (usually in the forms of getting his arse kicked or finding a dead body he could've saved), and then he works to remedy that.

By the time of, say, the short story Heorot, Harry can win a fist fight with a couple thugs that Murphy probably would've wiped the floor with. Which is to say Harry accounted for his weakness and sought to bolster it, but he didn't get to a level beyond what others can do.

All that said, if they're a protagonist, I wouldn't let them get near Kemmler's level, because Kemmler is more of a plot device than a character, someone who can effectively "cheat" the normal skill distribution.

[Sanctaphrax]

I have to disagree with Sanctaphrax here. Like he said, that's an additional 12 stress they can take; that brings the total stress a character can take in a single go up to 32 just on consequences alone (34 if they have a 5 in Endurance, 36 if they tack on No Pain, No Gain); that's up to 36 (38,40) with stress boxes, 41 (43,45) with an apex dodging skill, and 45 (47,49!) with a high roll.

So for two refresh, you've got someone -- with no other magical defenses -- who can fairly easily survive things like the Heart Exploding spell, which is statted out to explicitly be an inescapable one-hit-kill.

Sure, it's great for surviving one-hit-kills. But how many of those do you actually face?

Usually when a character goes down it's because they've been hit again and again.

Four times out of five, I'd take Inhuman Toughness over this thing. As you said yourself, most fights are "exchanges of 3- and 4-shift hits back and forth, with maybe only one or two consequences taken before one side or the other decides that taking a Moderate or Severe isn't worth it, and either concedes or is taken out". For which this Power would be mostly useless.

Effectively adding 12 stress boxes, far more than the protection you get from a 6-refresh power like Mythic Toughness? And without a catch? No way I'd allow that for a measly 2 refresh, if I allowed that at all.

It's not even close to adding twelve stress boxes. It's adding twelve stress. And not per scene, or even per session. Plus it's taggable, which is a major drawback.

Though as I said, things get squirrelly when you mix it with Recovery.

Mythic Toughness can absorb infinite stress if it comes in three-stress chunks. And against the kind of damage you're actually likely to encounter, it's at least three times as good as another set of consequences. Filling a mythically tough stress track takes an unbelievable amount of punishment.

[nadia.skylark]

It's not even close to adding twelve stress boxes. It's adding twelve stress. And not per scene, or even per session. Plus it's taggable, which is a major drawback.

And doesn't Inhuman Toughness let you absorb 9-11 stress (depending on your Endurance) that goes away at the end of the scene, plus giving you armor:1 against physical damage?

Though as I said, things get squirrelly when you mix it with Recovery.

And if recovery is a problem, I don't see any reason not to say "you can't take this with recovery powers," or "this costs extra with recovery powers."

[Sanctaphrax]

And doesn't Inhuman Toughness let you absorb 9-11 stress (depending on your Endurance) that goes away at the end of the scene, plus giving you armor:1 against physical damage?

Yes, but other times it just absorbs 2 stress. Either because 1-stress hits are filling your track box by box, or because you're dealing with a single overwhelming hit.

[Mr. Death]

Sure, it's great for surviving one-hit-kills. But how many of those do you actually face?

Not many, true. I was just pointing out how much tougher a character is with this.

Looked at another way, that's another 12 shifts a character can throw into a Death Curse (or when used as a human sacrifice), which is also a pretty big deal.

Usually when a character goes down it's because they've been hit again and again.

True -- and this stunt lets a character be hit three more times, and two of those times can be fairly substantial hits.

Four times out of five, I'd take Inhuman Toughness over this thing. As you said yourself, most fights are "exchanges of 3- and 4-shift hits back and forth, with maybe only one or two consequences taken before one side or the other decides that taking a Moderate or Severe isn't worth it, and either concedes or is taken out". For which this Power would be mostly useless.

Aside from it offering three more hits a character can take, agreed.

It's not even close to adding twelve stress boxes. It's adding twelve stress. And not per scene, or even per session. Plus it's taggable, which is a major drawback.

Two of the stress is per scene, but you're right, I misspoke.

Though as I said, things get squirrelly when you mix it with Recovery.

And prohibiting it is also a little squirrelly -- are there any powers that explicitly prohibit mixing with other powers (aside from, for instance, Supernatural Recovery being an upgrade to Inhuman recovery)?

Mythic Toughness can absorb infinite stress if it comes in three-stress chunks. And against the kind of damage you're actually likely to encounter, it's at least three times as good as another set of consequences. Filling a mythically tough stress track takes an unbelievable amount of punishment.

It also comes with a higher cost and a required weakness, neither of which is present in this proposed power.

[nadia.skylark]

Looked at another way, that's another 12 shifts a character can throw into a Death Curse (or when used as a human sacrifice), which is also a pretty big deal.

I really don't think you should determine whether a power is viable based on what could happen with the last action a character can ever take before dying. I mean, how many games is that actually going to be relevant in? And when it is relevant, it's still only going to happen once.

And prohibiting it is also a little squirrelly -- are there any powers that explicitly prohibit mixing with other powers (aside from, for instance, Supernatural Recovery being an upgrade to Inhuman recovery)?

I don't know if there are any in the Dresden RPG, but, to borrow a term from TV Tropes, it's an Obvious Rules Patch. There's one interaction that's the problem, so you fix it by saying "you can't do that."

Mythic Toughness can absorb infinite stress if it comes in three-stress chunks. And against the kind of damage you're actually likely to encounter, it's at least three times as good as another set of consequences. Filling a mythically tough stress track takes an unbelievable amount of punishment.

It also comes with a higher cost and a required weakness, neither of which is present in this proposed power.

If Mythic Toughness is three times as good as another set of consequences, then this power (the consequences) is priced correctly, because Mythic Toughness is three times the cost. And this power does have a weakness--you have a bunch of taggable consequences.

[Mr. Death]

I really don't think you should determine whether a power is viable based on what could happen with the last action a character can ever take before dying. I mean, how many games is that actually going to be relevant in? And when it is relevant, it's still only going to happen once.

I'm not saying that's what makes it viable or not, just that it's another consequence of the proposed power.

You can also give yourself consequences to power regular thaumaturgy, so a wizard with this power has all that extra juice they can put into non-death curse spells, too.

All I'm saying here is there are more side-effects and consequences to this proposed power than just making a character tougher to bring down.

I don't know if there are any in the Dresden RPG, but, to borrow a term from TV Tropes, it's an Obvious Rules Patch. There's one interaction that's the problem, so you fix it by saying "you can't do that."

I would posit, alternately, that if the power you're proposing requires its own unique roll to avoid breaking the game, that's a point against it.

If Mythic Toughness is three times as good as another set of consequences, then this power (the consequences) is priced correctly, because Mythic Toughness is three times the cost. And this power does have a weakness--you have a bunch of taggable consequences.

A tag is once. If it keeps coming up, you're getting fate points on it each time. And if and when you're finally taken down from running out of consequences, you're eligible for twice as many fate points in return for that loss than another character would be.

[nadia.skylark]

I'm not saying that's what makes it viable or not, just that it's another consequence of the proposed power.

All I'm saying here is there are more side-effects and consequences to this proposed power than just making a character tougher to bring down.

You can also give yourself consequences to power regular thaumaturgy, so a wizard with this power has all that extra juice they can put into non-death curse spells, too.

I can't be sure of this, given that I haven't actually played the game, but wouldn't the same problem exist for wizards with recovery powers? They could take a bunch of consequences, and by the time a fight broke out they'd be healed. With this power, you might get more consequences, but you're stuck with them for a while.

I would posit, alternately, that if the power you're proposing requires its own unique roll to avoid breaking the game, that's a point against it.

I don't even know if this even is a problem. Or if it's only a problem with Supernatural or higher Recovery. Or if it's only a problem with Mythic Recovery. Or if it's only a problem in some games but not others. Like I said, I've never played this game at all, much less tested this power.

For that matter, I'm not sure how someone with recovery powers would justify taking this power, since it's meant to represent someone who is so used to being hurt that they've developed the ability to keep functioning with more damage than most people can handle, and someone with recovery powers wouldn't have learned to function with a huge amount of damage--they would have healed it. You are supposed to have narrative justification for the powers you take, after all. (Yes, I know I didn't say this earlier; it only now occurred to me that it probably wasn't obvious.)

All I'm saying is, if it's a problem in your game, then don't let characters do that. To me, it seems like the same thing as some people saying that you can't use the Spirit element for mental attacks, but some people don't have a problem with it.

A tag is once. If it keeps coming up, you're getting fate points on it each time. And if and when you're finally taken down from running out of consequences, you're eligible for twice as many fate points in return for that loss than another character would be.

Hadn't thought about that.

[Mr. Death]

I can't be sure of this, given that I haven't actually played the game, but wouldn't the same problem exist for wizards with recovery powers? They could take a bunch of consequences, and by the time a fight broke out they'd be healed. With this power, you might get more consequences, but you're stuck with them for a while.

Over the long term, maybe, but this one would get them an additional 12 possible shifts on a spell immediately; or let them use all three consequences -- and, because they inflicted them themselves, if they got into a fight right afterward, their enemies couldn't tag them and they'd be effectively as fresh as someone with the normal amount of consequences.

I don't even know if this even is a problem. Or if it's only a problem with Supernatural or higher Recovery. Or if it's only a problem with Mythic Recovery. Or if it's only a problem in some games but not others. Like I said, I've never played this game at all, much less tested this power.

The lowest recovery power moves each one's recovery time down a step; so Milds recover more or less instantly like stress; moderates recover after the next scene; Severes after the next session (or at least, that's how the book does it; I tend to do it by in-game time, so by default, a mild is something you can walk off, moderate is something that takes a few days to a week, and severe is something with weeks to months of recovery time).

So even with the lowest level recovery power, someone with this could take all of their consequences save Extreme, and be more or less back in perfect health within a couple weeks.

For that matter, I'm not sure how someone with recovery powers would justify taking this power, since it's meant to represent someone who is so used to being hurt that they've developed the ability to keep functioning with more damage than most people can handle, and someone with recovery powers wouldn't have learned to function with a huge amount of damage--they would have healed it. You are supposed to have narrative justification for the powers you take, after all. (Yes, I know I didn't say this earlier; it only now occurred to me that it probably wasn't obvious.)

It could go the other way around. Someone with this power becomes, say, a Knight of Winter, and gets Inhuman Recovery in the deal.

All I'm saying is, if it's a problem in your game, then don't let characters do that. To me, it seems like the same thing as some people saying that you can't use the Spirit element for mental attacks, but some people don't have a problem with it.

I feel like the people who don't have a problem using spirit element for mental attacks are mostly the people who want to rely on spirit element for mental attacks to get around normal defenses.

It was one of the first things we learned to avoid when my group started doing Dresden. We had a couple quick "fight night" style sessions just to get used to the combat system, and at one point the GM has his wizard opponent just step out of the zone and hit the zone with a Weapon:9 mental attack. It was basically a zone-wide instakill -- one that we might have been able to dodge or tank if it had been a physical attack, but which we had no chance of doing to a mental one.

[nadia.skylark]

Over the long term, maybe, but this one would get them an additional 12 possible shifts on a spell immediately; or let them use all three consequences -- and, because they inflicted them themselves, if they got into a fight right afterward, their enemies couldn't tag them and they'd be effectively as fresh as someone with the normal amount of consequences.

This feels wrong narratively--if you're going into a fight already hurt, it ought to make a difference--but I'm not sure how it should be handled mechanically.

The lowest recovery power moves each one's recovery time down a step; so Milds recover more or less instantly like stress; moderates recover after the next scene; Severes after the next session (or at least, that's how the book does it; I tend to do it by in-game time, so by default, a mild is something you can walk off, moderate is something that takes a few days to a week, and severe is something with weeks to months of recovery time).

So even with the lowest level recovery power, someone with this could take all of their consequences save Extreme, and be more or less back in perfect health within a couple weeks.

Yes, but how much does that matter if you have to resolve whatever you're dealing with by tomorrow? In the books, at least, being completely healed in a couple of weeks wouldn't make a difference, because the situations in question never take longer than three days or so to deal with.

It could go the other way around. Someone with this power becomes, say, a Knight of Winter, and gets Inhuman Recovery in the deal.

Good point.

I feel like the people who don't have a problem using spirit element for mental attacks are mostly the people who want to rely on spirit element for mental attacks to get around normal defenses.

It was one of the first things we learned to avoid when my group started doing Dresden. We had a couple quick "fight night" style sessions just to get used to the combat system, and at one point the GM has his wizard opponent just step out of the zone and hit the zone with a Weapon:9 mental attack. It was basically a zone-wide instakill -- one that we might have been able to dodge or tank if it had been a physical attack, but which we had no chance of doing to a mental one.

It can't only be people who just want to get around defenses, because using spirit attacks like this is in the RAW. I feel like they wouldn't stick it into the sourcebook just because someone wanted to cheat the system like that, so it follows that some groups can use it without a problem.

[nadia.skylark]

Would this stunt be less of a problem if you couldn't use more than one of its consequences on any given thing (ie, you couldn't use more than one consequence to power a spell, you couldn't use more than one extra consequence to absorb an attack, etc)? This feels clunky, but I don't want my character to be able to absorb bigger hits than any other character or cast massively overpowered spells; this stunt is supposed to be for a bunch of smaller things.

[Celebnasse]

Would this stunt be less of a problem if you couldn't use more than one of its consequences on any given thing (ie, you couldn't use more than one consequence to power a spell, you couldn't use more than one extra consequence to absorb an attack, etc)? This feels clunky, but I don't want my character to be able to absorb bigger hits than any other character or cast massively overpowered spells; this stunt is supposed to be for a bunch of smaller things.

If this is supposed to model being able to take more damage before going down because you don't feel as much pain as others, why not model it with Armor: 2 (or 1, or 3).  Small hits (1 or 2 stress), you just shrug off the pain it causes (ie. you take no stress).  With larger hits, you are able to partially ignore the pain, but not fully (ie. you take less stress than you would have).

[nadia.skylark]

If this is supposed to model being able to take more damage before going down because you don't feel as much pain as others, why not model it with Armor: 2 (or 1, or 3).  Small hits (1 or 2 stress), you just shrug off the pain it causes (ie. you take no stress).  With larger hits, you are able to partially ignore the pain, but not fully (ie. you take less stress than you would have).

The idea is to model being able to better function while damaged than most people. A character with this stunt shouldn't be getting hurt any less--they should just be able to keep going longer while injured.

[Celebnasse]

The idea is to model being able to better function while damaged than most people. A character with this stunt shouldn't be getting hurt any less--they should just be able to keep going longer while injured.

From a non-mechanical point of view, keeping going longer while injured reads to me as they can take more hits before being taken out.  Does this sound about right?

Mechanically, being taken out is when you have to fill in a space on your stress track and have no space to fill in.  There are lots of different ways to allow a character to get hit more before being taken out.

• Have more stress boxes to fill in.
• Have more consequences to spend to reduce incoming stress
• Take less stress per hit

Both the first 2 allow one to cast bigger, stronger spells, by using the higher stress boxes and/or consequences, which you've said you don't want (and doesn't fit the fluff of ignoring pain).  As for the third, the easiest way to take less stress per hit, mechanically,  is Armour. 

Yes, most of the time Armor (the power/ability) is used in the book as just that, armor (scales, flak jacket, etc).  But there are lots of other things that can be used for something that isn't exactly what the name implies. The one that jumps to mind is Breath Weapon.  I'm sure not every creature/character that has the power called "Breath Weapon" is actually breathing something on their target.  Some are just attacking at range (which is mechanically what Breath Weapon is doing).  Mechanically what Armor is doing is allowing you to take more hits before being taken out.  Sometimes that's because each hit is doing less damage (in a non-mechanical sense) to you.  But there's nothing that says it can't mean you just ignore the pain (or some of the pain) of the hit, so you won't go down as easily as someone who doesn't have it.

[Sanctaphrax]

Looked at another way, that's another 12 shifts a character can throw into a Death Curse (or when used as a human sacrifice), which is also a pretty big deal.

...

True -- and this stunt lets a character be hit three more times, and two of those times can be fairly substantial hits.

Sure. That's not at all out of line for 2 Refresh.

And prohibiting it is also a little squirrelly -- are there any powers that explicitly prohibit mixing with other powers (aside from, for instance, Supernatural Recovery being an upgrade to Inhuman recovery)?

There are some special interactions like Sponsored Magic + Evocation. And for some reason you can't take Wizard's Constitution with Toughness. It's hardly common, though.

It's probably better to say that Recovery Powers don't affect the extra slots than to ban taking both together.

It also comes with a higher cost and a required weakness, neither of which is present in this proposed power.

It's way better and also way more expensive, as is appropriate.

The Catch is really more benefit than weakness. It's a big discount.

For that matter, I'm not sure how someone with recovery powers would justify taking this power, since it's meant to represent someone who is so used to being hurt that they've developed the ability to keep functioning with more damage than most people can handle, and someone with recovery powers wouldn't have learned to function with a huge amount of damage--they would have healed it.

On the contrary, it's often the people with Recovery powers who spend the most time in brutally injured states. They can handle it, after all.

This feels wrong narratively--if you're going into a fight already hurt, it ought to make a difference--but I'm not sure how it should be handled mechanically.

Consequence Aspects can be invoked and Compelled.

It can't only be people who just want to get around defenses, because using spirit attacks like this is in the RAW. I feel like they wouldn't stick it into the sourcebook just because someone wanted to cheat the system like that, so it follows that some groups can use it without a problem.

Every imaginable set of rules is fine for some groups. But if you allow mental spirit attacks, anyone who's good at Evocation can one-shot everything. Pretty much nothing is physically tough enough to handle a 7-shift force lance and mentally tough enough to handle a 7-shift sleep beam.