Why are powers so much stronger than stunts?

[nadia.skylark]

I was looking at endurance-based stunts vs powers, and it's just ridiculous. By spending 2 refresh on Inhuman Toughness, you get armor:1 against anything physical, plus two additional stress boxes--which probably means you can absorb an extra 9-11 shifts of damage.

But if you spend that same 2 refresh on stunts to get similar abilities, you'd want stunts like Tough Stuff, which gives you armor:1 against some things but not others, and No Pain No Gain, which gets you an extra mild physical consequence--which means you can absorb an extra 2 shifts of damage, plus you can have the consequence compelled against you and you have to wait a scene for it to clear.

This seems like a huge disparity.

[g33k]

I think it's the supernatural-vs-mortal thing.

Stunts don't hit you in the Mortality, IIRC, unless they're stunts based off of a supernatural Power.

Now, it's a separate question whether the Mortal refresh-bonus is adequate compensation.  One thing I have advocated for is a Mortal Refresh-Bonus that scales higher/faster with the power-level of the game, to help Mortal PC's keep up.

[Sanctaphrax]

Because they decided to write the game that way. I realize that's not helpful, but it's foundational enough that it can't really be explained in terms of other rules bits.

I'm not sure exactly why they chose to write that way, but I can speculate. Stunts were a well-established part of the rules system before DFRPG even existed, and they do a good job for representing human abilities. But they're not really adequate for representing the strength of a giant or the world-changing power of a wizard. The approach they chose let them keep stunts, while also representing powers well. And it helped shape the incentives of character creation in such a way that supernaturals would often / usually spend down to 1 Refresh while mortals would have a good supply of FP.

It's also worth mentioning that Tough Stuff and No Pain No Gain aren't exactly the best stunts around. Even in an all-mortals game they're not that appealing. As I said back when I wrote that optimization guide, stunts are at their best when they improve a speciality, add a capability, or cover a weakness. And often they can improve you in areas that Powers can't really touch.

[nadia.skylark]

I think it's the supernatural-vs-mortal thing.

Stunts don't hit you in the Mortality, IIRC, unless they're stunts based off of a supernatural Power.

I get that for why stunts are slightly less powerful. The problem is that some stunts are ridiculously less powerful.

It's also worth mentioning that Tough Stuff and No Pain No Gain aren't exactly the best stunts around. Even in an all-mortals game they're not that appealing.

Ah. Do you think it would be a problem if I re-tooled No Pain No Gain to give you an extra mild, moderate, and severe consequence? You'd be able to absorb slightly more stress than with Inhuman Toughness, but at the cost of taking a bunch of consequences, so it seems like it would still be slightly less powerful than the equivalent refresh in powers. I'm not sure, though. What do you think?

As I said back when I wrote that optimization guide, stunts are at their best when they improve a speciality, add a capability, or cover a weakness. And often they can improve you in areas that Powers can't really touch.

I'll read that.

[Sanctaphrax]

Ah. Do you think it would be a problem if I re-tooled No Pain No Gain to give you an extra mild, moderate, and severe consequence? You'd be able to absorb slightly more stress than with Inhuman Toughness, but at the cost of taking a bunch of consequences, so it seems like it would still be slightly less powerful than the equivalent refresh in powers. I'm not sure, though. What do you think?

I think that would be significantly too strong. It takes 2-3 extra stress to one-shot someone with Inhuman Toughness, while that pile of consequences can absorb 12 stress.

I don't really see it as a problem that No Pain No Gain is unexciting, but if you want to strengthen it you could have the bonus consequence not come with a tag. Allowing a bonus stress box stunt probably wouldn't break anything either.

[nadia.skylark]

I think that would be significantly too strong. It takes 2-3 extra stress to one-shot someone with Inhuman Toughness, while that pile of consequences can absorb 12 stress.

Right. I hate the way stress tracks work. I always manage to forget some part of it.

[nadia.skylark]

How much refresh do you think it should cost to give someone an additional mild, moderate, and severe physical consequence?

[Sanctaphrax]

2, maybe?

But I'm not confident there's any cost that'll work well.

It's a bit awkward because the value of a severe consequence is so dependent on what level of Recovery you have. If you've got Supernatural Recovery, you can use your consequences frequently; if you have no Recovery, you can use them rarely.

[nadia.skylark]

2, maybe?

Thanks!

But I'm not confident there's any cost that'll work well.

It's a bit awkward because the value of a severe consequence is so dependent on what level of Recovery you have. If you've got Supernatural Recovery, you can use your consequences frequently; if you have no Recovery, you can use them rarely.

If my character had recovery powers, I'd just give them toughness instead of this. The point of this power is for a character who's specifically mortal (well, a wizard) and has no reason to have toughness/recovery powers, but manages to stay in fights much longer than she should because she can take a bunch of damage and still keep fighting.

[Mr. Death]

How much refresh do you think it should cost to give someone an additional mild, moderate, and severe physical consequence?

I have to disagree with Sanctaphrax here. Like he said, that's an additional 12 stress they can take; that brings the total stress a character can take in a single go up to 32 just on consequences alone (34 if they have a 5 in Endurance, 36 if they tack on No Pain, No Gain); that's up to 36 (38,40) with stress boxes, 41 (43,45) with an apex dodging skill, and 45 (47,49!) with a high roll.

So for two refresh, you've got someone -- with no other magical defenses -- who can fairly easily survive things like the Heart Exploding spell, which is statted out to explicitly be an inescapable one-hit-kill.

"Getting hit a lot and getting back up" is more for things like John McLane, who's taking bullets and punches a bunch (2-3 shift hits), which he recovers from once he gets away and can catch his breath.

It's not for John McLane going down in a fiery helicopter crash and bursting into flames and getting up and walking away.

Effectively adding 12 stress boxes, far more than the protection you get from a 6-refresh power like Mythic Toughness? And without a catch? No way I'd allow that for a measly 2 refresh, if I allowed that at all.

[nadia.skylark]

I have to disagree with Sanctaphrax here. Like he said, that's an additional 12 stress they can take; that brings the total stress a character can take in a single go up to 32 just on consequences alone (34 if they have a 5 in Endurance, 36 if they tack on No Pain, No Gain); that's up to 36 (38,40) with stress boxes, 41 (43,45) with an apex dodging skill, and 45 (47,49!) with a high roll.

So for two refresh, you've got someone -- with no other magical defenses -- who can fairly easily survive things like the Heart Exploding spell, which is statted out to explicitly be an inescapable one-hit-kill.

"Getting hit a lot and getting back up" is more for things like John McLane, who's taking bullets and punches a bunch (2-3 shift hits), which he recovers from once he gets away and can catch his breath.

It's not for John McLane going down in a fiery helicopter crash and bursting into flames and getting up and walking away.

Effectively adding 12 stress boxes, far more than the protection you get from a 6-refresh power like Mythic Toughness? And without a catch? No way I'd allow that for a measly 2 refresh, if I allowed that at all.

Could you provide alternate suggestions, then?

[Mr. Death]

Could you provide alternate suggestions, then?

High Endurance and No Pain, No Gain get you two additional Mild Consequences for three total; if she's a wizard, give her an enchanted item with an armor rating.

There's also the "powers as spells" idea, or you could justify upgrading the wizard longevity power to Inhuman Recovery with a suitable catch/limitation (like maybe she needs post-battle meditation/spellwork to kick it into gear).

Potions that give her temporary Inhuman Toughness (maybe with a crash afterward, if the extra stress boxes are filled when it wears off).

Honest question: Have you played DFRPG yet, or often? Or is this mainly fanfic research?

[nadia.skylark]

Honest question: Have you played DFRPG yet, or often? Or is this mainly fanfic research?

No, I've never played. I haven't been able to find anyone near me to play with, and I'm not sure about playing online, because when I can post is pretty erratic. But I think the system's interesting, and also I really need something to remind me that, no, I can't have that phoenix give my character access to its magic right now, she just got two other power-ups.

[Mr. Death]

No, I've never played. I haven't been able to find anyone near me to play with, and I'm not sure about playing online, because when I can post is pretty erratic. But I think the system's interesting, and also I really need something to remind me that, no, I can't have that phoenix give my character access to its magic right now, she just got two other power-ups.

OK, I think that clarifies things a bit.

It may not be immediately clear from the rules or from checking this forum, but in practice, Dresden RPG is a system of small numbers -- it's a system where a +2 can be a huge difference, and Armor:1 reducing every hit can really add up.

I've been running the game off and on for the last 9 years, and the kind of huge attacks and long, drawn-out battles that would make the kinds of stunts and powers you're looking for necessary almost never happen. Most fights are exchanges of 3- and 4-shift hits back and forth, with maybe only one or two consequences taken before one side or the other decides that taking a Moderate or Severe isn't worth it, and either concedes or is taken out.

So a typical fight for Harry that has him getting knocked around? Might fill his stress boxes, but probably only the bloody nose and black eye are the actual consequences. Then he takes a breather and he's more or less fresh for the next round.

So an extra mild consequence might not seem like much, but it's a much bigger advantage than you might think just by looking at the rules in a vacuum. Having a sharply-limited number of consequences, and having those consequences stick around, raises the stakes of any combat and forces the players and characters to consider things besides just wailing away until someone drops.

It's also a system where the low numbers mean everyone has at least a chance. You don't get to be "untouchable" until you're a Plot Device level character like Mab or The Merlin.

Can someone with a 1 in Weapons beat someone with a 5 in the same skill? It's extremely unlikely, but, just like in real life, that guy with the 1 can get in a lucky roll (say he gets four +'s, and his opponent gets two -'s -- that makes it a 5 shift hit in his favor, just enough to win a fight with a lucky shot) or nudge it with fate points to give himself a fighting chance. That's what keeps things interesting, in my opinion.

[nadia.skylark]

OK, I think that clarifies things a bit.

It may not be immediately clear from the rules or from checking this forum, but in practice, Dresden RPG is a system of small numbers -- it's a system where a +2 can be a huge difference, and Armor:1 reducing every hit can really add up.

I've been running the game off and on for the last 9 years, and the kind of huge attacks and long, drawn-out battles that would make the kinds of stunts and powers you're looking for almost never happen. Most fights are exchanges of 3- and 4-shift hits back and forth, with maybe only one or two consequences taken before one side or the other decides that taking a Moderate or Severe isn't worth it, and either concedes or is taken out.

So a typical fight for Harry that has him getting knocked around? Might fill his stress boxes, but probably only the bloody nose and black eye are the actual consequences. Then he takes a breather and he's more or less fresh for the next round.

So an extra mild consequence might not seem like much, but it's a much bigger advantage than you might think just by looking at the rules in a vacuum. Having a sharply-limited number of consequences, and having those consequences stick around, raises the stakes of any combat and forces the players and characters to consider things besides just wailing away until someone drops.

It's also a system where the low numbers mean everyone has at least a chance. You don't get to be "untouchable" until you're a Plot Device level character like Mab or The Merlin.

Can someone with a 1 in Weapons beat someone with a 5 in the same skill? It's extremely unlikely, but, just like in real life, that guy with the 1 can get in a lucky roll (say he gets four +'s, and his opponent gets two -'s -- that makes it a 5 shift hit in his favor, just enough to win a fight with a lucky shot) or nudge it with fate points to give himself a fighting chance. That's what keeps things interesting, in my opinion.

Thanks!

So, if you're trying to stat out a character that starts out as an apprentice wizard and progresses to Kemmler-level badass, how would you go about that without inflating the numbers too much?