I think Murphy is going to get killed here is why

[Bad Alias]

I feel like Butters motivation and reasoning needed to be set up better. The thematic elements of trust and faith make sense. Everything after Butters' choice not to trust Harry makes sense. It's his choice not to trust Harry that doesn't make sense to me. Especially sense he went with "trust but verify" in Ghost Story and seemed to trust him just fine in Cold Days. He had access to all the information needed to be fine with Harry coming back via Bob. Also, everyone knows Dresden well enough to understand why he stole Bob instead of borrowing him. Their reactions are mostly exasperation. Harry comes back from the dead and acts exactly like everyone expects him to act.

If I recall correctly, Butters' only real concern about Harry in Cold Days is that the mantle might be a trick that isn't really helping Harry. (Unless the mantle has been retconned after Cold Days, Butters is almost certainly wrong). It seems to me that something happened off page that changed Butters' course. I don't think that sort of character change should happen off page without an on page explanation. That explanation may still be coming. For those not aware, there have been theories here that Andi was seriously injured either in Cold Days or after, and for some reason, Jim has only hinted at it. That could be the reason for Butters' change in character and will be revealed later.

On another point, Harry doesn't tell Karrin about the parasite in Cold Days or Skin Game. Between the two of them, Karrin is the first to bring it up. This leads me to believe that Karrin already knew about it because Harry told either Thomas or Murphy once he couldn't leave the island.

[morriswalters]

She did visit him on the island.... That gives her more knowledge...  I find it hard to believe that she wouldn't have said anything to him about the fight against the Fomen..  If she trusts him, she'd know he had a good reason for not leaving the island, thus not let Butters escalate into the state of mistrust and fear he arrived at...

I pretty much live and die by the text. It seems pretty clear.

@Bad Alias
I think the first chapter covers all the bases as well as it could without turning the intro into a book of it's own.  He's afraid.  And he acts the fool.  He mentions Will and Georgia being hurt.  But I think it is the realization of just how powerless he is.  Which is all in the text.

[nadia.skylark]

On my reread of chapter one,  in no particular order, Mab has used the Lake ice to keep people out.  She's blocked access to Molly, she manipulated Harry's messages to his friends to Molly to sow distrust.  She has effectively kept him from hooking up to his allies as time dragged by.  Harry never meant to be there for all that time.  Thank Mab.

Yeah, but that was over the winter. From what I remember, Butters' issues had been developing since before Halloween.

Why did Butters need to know?

To prevent him doing something stupid, which in fact he did. Even if other characters decided that he didn't need to know, Butters still should have said something to the effect that he had asked people what was going on, and no one had given him any answers.

Butters steps over a line.  Rather than walking away or creating distance until he could find clarity he turns into a snoop.  As a character I don't like Butters.  Anyone who did what he did in my personal space would find himself an outsider.

This.

I feel like Butters motivation and reasoning needed to be set up better. The thematic elements of trust and faith make sense. Everything after Butters' choice not to trust Harry makes sense. It's his choice not to trust Harry that doesn't make sense to me. Especially sense he went with "trust but verify" in Ghost Story and seemed to trust him just fine in Cold Days. He had access to all the information needed to be fine with Harry coming back via Bob. Also, everyone knows Dresden well enough to understand why he stole Bob instead of borrowing him. Their reactions are mostly exasperation. Harry comes back from the dead and acts exactly like everyone expects him to act.

If I recall correctly, Butters' only real concern about Harry in Cold Days is that the mantle might be a trick that isn't really helping Harry. (Unless the mantle has been retconned after Cold Days, Butters is almost certainly wrong). It seems to me that something happened off page that changed Butters' course. I don't think that sort of character change should happen off page without an on page explanation. That explanation may still be coming. For those not aware, there have been theories here that Andi was seriously injured either in Cold Days or after, and for some reason, Jim has only hinted at it. That could be the reason for Butters' change in character and will be revealed later.

Agreed.

Does this read like Murphy knows more than Butters?  Or is framed to show that Murphy is working off of her understanding of Harry and not any knowledge?

She did visit him on the island.... That gives her more knowledge...  I find it hard to believe that she wouldn't have said anything to him about the fight against the Fomen..  If she trusts him, she'd know he had a good reason for not leaving the island, thus not let Butters escalate into the state of mistrust and fear he arrived at...

On another point, Harry doesn't tell Karrin about the parasite in Cold Days or Skin Game. Between the two of them, Karrin is the first to bring it up. This leads me to believe that Karrin already knew about it because Harry told either Thomas or Murphy once he couldn't leave the island.

There are indications both ways as to whether Murphy knew. Personally, I feel like her actions in this book fit best with her characterization as of Cold Days if she does know, but I can see how other people might feel differently.

I think the first chapter covers all the bases as well as it could without turning the intro into a book of it's own.  He's afraid.  And he acts the fool.  He mentions Will and Georgia being hurt.  But I think it is the realization of just how powerless he is.  Which is all in the text.

It doesn't deal with any of my issues about Butters' actions. There is nothing in there that tells me why Butters hasn't been asking questions or why he hasn't been using logic. When Butters has been afraid before, he's always tried to get information to deal with his fear. This time, he inexplicably just didn't. He was far more afraid, and far more powerless, in Dead Beat, and he acted far better.

[huangjimmy108]

I think it is mistaken to compare book 15 Butters to his previous self. If we are saying that Butters is acting out of character, well perhaps Butters is indeed out of character. The cowardly nerd that is book 7 Butters would not be playing "Batman" as book 15 Butters did.

Information is power and it is dangerous. It is always Harry's standard MO to minimize the spread of information unless he has a very good reason to share. On his usual mode, Butters is unlikely to get involve in anything dangerous. Situations  in which nescesitates Harry to share with Butters information like the existence of the parasite in his head simply does not exist before the event of skin game actually take place. Information like Harry has a psychic parasite in his head is not something you chat about with your friends during dinner time. It is something you dish out only when you find the need for it. Before book 15 actually happened, who would suspect the previously nerdy Butters to dare snoop around near the likes of Nicodemous?

Even if Harry is told that Butters is currently playing "Batman" recently, I doubt the idea of Butters actually spying on him will cross Harry's mind. It wouldn't cross Murphy's or Thomas's mind either. The guy is suppose to be backline support.

The danger of talking too much is demonstrated in book 15. Anduriel could see or hear things via shadows. If Anduriel can do this, other powers may have similar or even better spying capabilities. And Though Nicodemous's heist started in book 16, assuming that he did not scout around and begin spying and gathering information long before that is rather naïve. If Thomas told Butters about the parasite when Anduriel happened to be spying during Nicodemous's preparation phase, Hary's condition could possibly be revealed. It would not be difficult to deduce that the earing Harry is uncharacteristically wearing is his current weakness.

The above hypothetical example just show that even though the current condition seem calm and peaceful, it does not mean you can just open your mouth and say or ask anything. you don't know who could be watchingor listening. This would explain why Murphy and Thomas could not just told Butters about sensitive information, not even if Butters is complaining. Unless there is an urgent and specific need, it simply much safer to keep everything on a need to know basis. This kind of secretive conduct has become some kind of second instinct for anything and everyone who is verse in the supernatural world. Thomas and Murphy included. People don't just give away information or answer questions even if asked by a friend or ally. Getting information in the Dresdenverse is not that easy.

[nadia.skylark]

I think it is mistaken to compare book 15 Butters to his previous self. If we are saying that Butters is acting out of character, well perhaps Butters is indeed out of character. The cowardly nerd that is book 7 Butters would not be playing "Batman" as book 15 Butters did.

My problem with this is that, while character development is absolutely a thing, Butters' becoming a Knight clearly demonstrates that he's not supposed to have experienced a net negative development. And yet, while I can absolutely see Dead Beat Butters becoming a Knight given the proper circumstances, having Skin Game Butters become a Knight feels completely unjustified to me.

Information is power and it is dangerous. It is always Harry's standard MO to minimize the spread of information unless he has a very good reason to share. On his usual mode, Butters is unlikely to get involve in anything dangerous. Situations  in which nescesitates Harry to share with Butters information like the existence of the parasite in his head simply does not exist before the event of skin game actually take place. Information like Harry has a psychic parasite in his head is not something you chat about with your friends during dinner time. It is something you dish out only when you find the need for it. Before book 15 actually happened, who would suspect the previously nerdy Butters to dare snoop around near the likes of Nicodemous?

Even if Harry is told that Butters is currently playing "Batman" recently, I doubt the idea of Butters actually spying on him will cross Harry's mind. It wouldn't cross Murphy's or Thomas's mind either. The guy is suppose to be backline support.

Harry might not have told Butters (although he might have. A lot of his character development has been about sharing information). But that's not the point. The point is that A) Butters should have asked, and there's no evidence he did; and B) the people he would have asked would be Murphy and Thomas, neither of whom conceal information as routinely as Harry does, and both of whom have been witness to his character development and who should therefore absolutely know that Butters is a lot more than backline support these days--Murphy was the one who told Harry that.

The danger of talking too much is demonstrated in book 15. Anduriel could see or hear things via shadows. If Anduriel can do this, other powers may have similar or even better spying capabilities. And Though Nicodemous's heist started in book 16, assuming that he did not scout around and begin spying and gathering information long before that is rather naïve. If Thomas told Butters about the parasite when Anduriel happened to be spying during Nicodemous's preparation phase, Hary's condition could possibly be revealed. It would not be difficult to deduce that the earing Harry is uncharacteristically wearing is his current weakness.

Yes, but neither Murphy nor Thomas had any way of knowing that. And even if they did, Butters clearly didn't know that because he treated Harry not telling him stuff as a reason to distrust Harry, rather than as a sensible security precaution--and like I've said before, there's no evidence that Butters was asking questions pre-Skin Game.

The above hypothetical example just show that even though the current condition seem calm and peaceful, it does not mean you can just open your mouth and say or ask anything. you don't know who could be watchingor listening. This would explain why Murphy and Thomas could not just told Butters about sensitive information, not even if Butters is complaining. Unless there is an urgent and specific need, it simply much safer to keep everything on a need to know basis. This kind of secretive conduct has become some kind of second instinct for anything and everyone who is verse in the supernatural world. Thomas and Murphy included. People don't just give away information or answer questions even if asked by a friend or ally. Getting information in the Dresdenverse is not that easy.

I'm unconvinced that either Thomas or Murphy have developed an instinct for routinely hiding information from their allies when they know that it is causing mistrust (unlike Harry). If anything, I would expect them to defer answering Butters' questions, had he asked them, until either A) they were behind a threshold; or B) they were behind wards; or C) they were at Michael's house; or D) they'd asked Harry if it was all right to share this info. And clearly none of those options were taken--which I tend to assume means either Butters didn't ask them questions about Harry or Murphy is being more manipulative and nasty than I have accused her of being, and Butters talked to her but not Thomas.

[morriswalters]

To prevent him doing something stupid, which in fact he did.   Even if other characters decided that he didn't need to know, Butters still should have said something to the effect that he had asked people what was going on, and no one had given him any answers.

You do realize that the only person that can keep Butters from doing stupid things is the Butters. No other person can or should exercise that kind of control over someone else.

edit
If Harry had crossed over to the darkside, why would anything he said make any difference?  A lie would be the order of the day.  And if he thinks Murphy is being hoodwinked, she is unreliable as well.  Can anybody provide any clarity on this?

[kbrizzle]

While I don’t like SG Butters at all, I understand the overall point JB is trying to make with his character arc in the novel.

The way to look at SG Butters is to contrast him with his foil in the novel - Michael. By the time of SG, Michael is in more or less the same/ worse shape than Butters on paper - he is also powerless (has given up the Sword & is crippled from his SmF injuries) & likely has some inkling of what the Fomor are upto in Chicago. The difference between Michael & Butters is that Michael has faith - in both TWG & Harry.

I think that Butters’ arc in SG is supposed to say more about how TWG works in the DV than Butters’ lack of faith (since it is glossed over & not really referred to after the event, despite it leading to Murphy getting crippled & losing the Sword/ perhaps more). Butters at the point of TWG is fighting the good fight, but he is aware that he is losing - the Fomor, Lara & Marcone are all growing in power while the BFS isn’t faring so well. Naturally a sensitive, bookish introvert, the violence & loss have hardened him & made him much more cynical in his worldview. That he is viewed as a low-level information gatherer & not a warrior, he is likely left out of the loop by Molly, Murphy & Thomas on all important things (like stuff concerning Harry). As a result, Butters has lost faith in both TWG & Harry. The point of his being made a KotC is to restore that faith.

JB has noted in the series that a defining characteristic of a hero is being willing to risk your life against overwhelming evil because you believe it is right. In SG, Butters is doing that (albeit avoidably) when he gets caught.
One can argue that given what Butters believes (that Harry is living out a Pet Cemetary scenario - our issue in this thread is whether Butters should think this way) what he does is rather brave.

It is said that the difference between a brave act & a stupid one is results - this one didn’t pan out for Butters since Nic & his cabal are a much more formidable bunch than the Fomor yahoos running around Chicago post-Changes.

[nadia.skylark]

You do realize that the only person that can keep Butters from doing stupid things is the Butters. No other person can or should exercise that kind of control over someone else.

First, at least half my point was that Butters should have been asking the kind of questions that would prevent him from doing something stupid. Second, while it is obviously not anyone else's responsibility to keep Butters from doing stupid things, my point here is that giving him information very likely would have prevented him from doing something stupid, and that that is, in fact, a good reason to give him said information.

If Harry had crossed over to the darkside, why would anything he said make any difference?  A lie would be the order of the day.  And if he thinks Murphy is being hoodwinked, she is unreliable as well.  Can anybody provide any clarity on this?

..So now Butters' reasoning is "Harry's gone completely dark side, and not only that, he's tricked Thomas the vampire who grew up dealing with deception and manipulation, and not only that, he's tricked Murphy the incipient wielder of Fidellachius (bearing in mind that Knights are really hard to trick) who's known him for something like two decades at this point...oh, and he must also have tricked Bob too, even though Bob's personality is literally shaped by his wielder, so it seems impossible that Bob could not understand said wielder...so I'm just going to ignore anything anyone says about Harry, in fact, I'm not going to even ask--I'm not ignoring evidence, just trickery..." It seems implausible and out of character. Furthermore, if he was going to assume that Harry was this kind of master of deception, why would he ask Harry for an explanation in Skin Game, and why wouldn't he question this "master of deception" thing when Harry flat out said that he was involved in something shady rather than coming up with a convincing lie?

While I don’t like SG Butters at all, I understand the overall point JB is trying to make with his character arc in the novel.

The way to look at SG Butters is to contrast him with his foil in the novel - Michael. By the time of SG, Michael is in more or less the same/ worse shape than Butters on paper - he is also powerless (has given up the Sword & is crippled from his SmF injuries) & likely has some inkling of what the Fomor are upto in Chicago. The difference between Michael & Butters is that Michael has faith - in both TWG & Harry.

I think that Butters’ arc in SG is supposed to say more about how TWG works in the DV than Butters’ lack of faith (since it is glossed over & not really referred to after the event, despite it leading to Murphy getting crippled & losing the Sword/ perhaps more). Butters at the point of TWG is fighting the good fight, but he is aware that he is losing - the Fomor, Lara & Marcone are all growing in power while the BFS isn’t faring so well. Naturally a sensitive, bookish introvert, the violence & loss have hardened him & made him much more cynical in his worldview. That he is viewed as a low-level information gatherer & not a warrior, he is likely left out of the loop by Molly, Murphy & Thomas on all important things (like stuff concerning Harry). As a result, Butters has lost faith in both TWG & Harry. The point of his being made a KotC is to restore that faith.

JB has noted in the series that a defining characteristic of a hero is being willing to risk your life against overwhelming evil because you believe it is right. In SG, Butters is doing that (albeit avoidably) when he gets caught.
One can argue that given what Butters believes (that Harry is living out a Pet Cemetary scenario - our issue in this thread is whether Butters should think this way) what he does is rather brave.

It is said that the difference between a brave act & a stupid one is results - this one didn’t pan out for Butters since Nic & his cabal are a much more formidable bunch than the Fomor yahoos running around Chicago post-Changes.

I get that Jim is trying to make a point--I just wish he'd done it differently. I've provided a scenario that would allow Butters to be both smart and suspicious, and I'm certain that other people could come up with more--but the way it's done just makes Butters look stupid and out of character.

[Mira]

I get that Jim is trying to make a point--I just wish he'd done it differently. I've provided a scenario that would allow Butters to be both smart and suspicious, and I'm certain that other people could come up with more--but the way it's done just makes Butters look stupid and out of character.

Exactly...

..So now Butters' reasoning is "Harry's gone completely dark side, and not only that, he's tricked Thomas the vampire who grew up dealing with deception and manipulation, and not only that, he's tricked Murphy the incipient wielder of Fidellachius (bearing in mind that Knights are really hard to trick) who's known him for something like two decades at this point...oh, and he must also have tricked Bob too, even though Bob's personality is literally shaped by his wielder, so it seems impossible that Bob could not understand said wielder...so I'm just going to ignore anything anyone says about Harry, in fact, I'm not going to even ask--I'm not ignoring evidence, just trickery..." It seems implausible and out of character. Furthermore, if he was going to assume that Harry was this kind of master of deception, why would he ask Harry for an explanation in Skin Game, and why wouldn't he question this "master of deception" thing when Harry flat out said that he was involved in something shady rather than coming up with a convincing lie?

Exactly,  it is implausible that  Butters frustrated with the fact that they were losing the fight against the Fomen and that Harry wasn't there to help in the fight wouldn't at the very least express his frustration with the fact... Something Murphy seemed to know about, so the question remains did she do any reassurance at all to prevent this level of frustration?  Why wasn't she effective at doing it?  Or did she just ignore it because like a lot of people she undervalues Butters so she blew off his complaints...

[morriswalters]

Your asking the unanswerable.  The text is what it is.  You can ask why all the characters act as they do, but the only answer is what the text gives you.  This is meant to reveal a crisis of faith.  Butcher harps on faith throughout the books.  And faith isn't about facts.  This is about how you deal with things when fear and uncertainty become the over riding emotions.  The whole point of the chase sequence is to give Butters the reassurance that Jim has decided he needs.  Butters screws the pooch and his friends forgive him and Harry regains his Superman cred and Butters faith is restored.  Thus setting up the final act.  I dislike this story line but I'm fairly sure that Jim doesn't care. 

[nadia.skylark]

Your asking the unanswerable.  The text is what it is.  You can ask why all the characters act as they do, but the only answer is what the text gives you.

We're discussing. It's fun.

I dislike this story line but I'm fairly sure that Jim doesn't care.

This.

[Mira]

Your asking the unanswerable.  The text is what it is.  You can ask why all the characters act as they do, but the only answer is what the text gives you.  This is meant to reveal a crisis of faith.  Butcher harps on faith throughout the books.  And faith isn't about facts.  This is about how you deal with things when fear and uncertainty become the over riding emotions.  The whole point of the chase sequence is to give Butters the reassurance that Jim has decided he needs.  Butters screws the pooch and his friends forgive him and Harry regains his Superman cred and Butters faith is restored.  Thus setting up the final act.  I dislike this story line but I'm fairly sure that Jim doesn't care.

Stuff happens off page as well,  when a character goes off the rails with a few clues as to why, sometimes the reader has to fill in the blanks... Sometimes the reader is wrong and other times the reader nails it, that is what is fun...   Oh Jim cares, he wants us to continue to buy his books....

[morriswalters]

Oh Jim cares, he wants us to continue to buy his books....

Only in aggregate. Books can't be written by a committee.  Which is the way it should be.

However the motivations for the characters have to be apparent, otherwise it's random noise with no meaning.  Chapter one lays out the themes.  If Butters has doubts about Harry, Harry himself also harbors doubts.  They haven't been communicating.  Mab is standing in the center preventing Harry from keeping his lines of communications open, to manipulate him.  So Skin Game in one sense is about the characters reconnecting and reestablishing those bonds of trust and faith in each other after a period when those ties have weakened.  And Jim Ratchets up the pressure by giving Anduriel the ability to listen from Shadows.  Butters is a pale refection of Anduriel, wanting to know Harry's intentions, for much the same reasons.  And it also signals Harry reconnecting to the larger world, the White Council and the Wardens.  So this is how I interpret what I read.

[Mira]

Only in aggregate. Books can't be written by a committee.  Which is the way it should be.

However the motivations for the characters have to be apparent, otherwise it's random noise with no meaning.  Chapter one lays out the themes.  If Butters has doubts about Harry, Harry himself also harbors doubts.  They haven't been communicating.  Mab is standing in the center preventing Harry from keeping his lines of communications open, to manipulate him.  So Skin Game in one sense is about the characters reconnecting and reestablishing those bonds of trust and faith in each other after a period when those ties have weakened.  And Jim Ratchets up the pressure by giving Anduriel the ability to listen from Shadows.  Butters is a pale refection of Anduriel, wanting to know Harry's intentions, for much the same reasons.  And it also signals Harry reconnecting to the larger world, the White Council and the Wardens.  So this is how I interpret what I read.

You are leaving out a couple of things.... First of all, Butters has nothing to do with Mab, so he wouldn't know what she has been up to...  Second of all, Butters has been working with Murphy in the fight against the Fomen,  she has had personal contact with Harry because she visited him on the island during the year...  She seemed to know about the misgivings that Butters has developed, and it appears to this reader that she did nothing to change his perception.

[morriswalters]

I'm leaving out all sorts of things.  I'm just showing you my mindset.  As to your response, maybe Murphy is a bad leader, maybe Butters is a crybaby, or maybe rhetorically speaking, it's three in the morning and the darkness is weighing on everybody, as it does when your tired and a little frightened.  Lacking any text to clarify this point, provides an opportunity for the reader to speculate.  This is a good thing.